Diving Into The Heart

September 20, 2002

Dear Friends , I would appreciate it if any one has any practical advice on this

thispractice .The

Ashram published a book called The Technique of Maha Yoga .It suggested

focussing on the heart

centre on an exhalation after breath retention .I prefer focussing and diving

on the retention

..What do others find best for them ? Yours in Bhagavan Alan

Everything you'll ever need on one web page

from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

http://uk.my.

September 21, 2002

<PRE>Let the truth be heard.

September 21, 2002

Dear Alan,

shortly before you joined this group there was a vivid disscussion

here about meditation on the Heart centre. You will find in the

archive under the subject "Self-Enquiry and the Heart", date round

12. Sept.

Following "Who am I" the I-thought reaches the Heart and the Heart

becomes revealed in the throbbing of 'I-I' by itself. Focus here is

only on the I-thought and from where it arises. As the I-thought and

with it everything else arises from the Heart, the Heart reveals

itself, perhaps felt as a throbbing in the body for some time, but at

least it is allconsuming the pure Self and this alone and not of the

body. Concentration on it as on a bodily centre to meditate upon is

not needed to reach the Heart, but perhaps a means which can be used.

You mention the use of breath control.

In the famous verse Ramana said:

In the centre of the Heart-Cave there shines alone the one Brahman

as the "I-I", the Atman.

Reach the Heart by diving deep in quest of the Self, or by

controlling the mind with the breath, and stay established in the

Atman." (Ramana Gita II,2)

Here for reaching the heart breath control is also suggested as a

means. Perhaps someone can say something about who has practiced.

In Him

Gabriele

RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs> wrote:

> Dear Friends , I would appreciate it if any one has any practical

advice on this thispractice .The

> Ashram published a book called The Technique of Maha Yoga .It

suggested focussing on the heart

> centre on an exhalation after breath retention .I prefer

focussing and diving on the retention

> .What do others find best for them ? Yours in Bhagavan Alan

>

> Everything you'll ever need on one web page

> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

> http://uk.my.

September 21, 2002

Dear Gabriele,

> shortly before you joined this group there was a

> vivid discussion here about meditation on the

> Heart centre.

For Alan's benefit I would like to state my opinion

about this again.

Bhagavan said over and over again that self-enquiry

does not involve voluntary concentration on the Heart-

centre. It is a misunderstanding of his teaching to think

that we are supposed to perform Self-enqury by

voluntarily focusing our attention on sensations in the

right side of the chest.

Since that earlier thread occurred a few days ago, I

noticed that David Godman agrees with me that this

is a misunderstanding. He discusses it in a chapter

called "Self-Enquiry -- Misconceptions" in his best-

known book, "Be As You Are." I'll quote just a tiny

bit of what David says:

.. This belief that the mind can, by its own

.. activities, reach the Self is the root of most

.. of the misconceptions about self-enquiry. A

.. classic example of this is the belief that self-

.. enquiry involves concentrating on a particular

.. centre of the body called the Heart-centre. This

.. widely-held view results from a misinter-

.. pretation of some of Sri Ramana's statements

.. on the Heart, and to understand how the belief

.. has come about, it will be necessary to take a

.. closer look at some of his ideas on the subject.

.. (page 71).

David goes on to describe what Bhagavan really said

about the Heart-centre, and he provides numerous

quotations to back up his analysis.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert

Saturday, September 21, 2002 3:31 AM

[RamanaMaharshi] Re: Diving Into The Heart

September 21, 2002

Dear Alan,

In my opinion, "diving" really means, "become quiet

by looking inward, and allow the mind to sink."

Let me provide two quotations.

The first one illustrates the picture that Bhagavan

had in mind when he said "dive." This quote comes

from "Who Am I?" which was given as a basic text

to every ashram visitor:

.. Just as a pearl diver, tying a stone to his waist,

.. dives into the sea and takes the pearl lying on the

.. bottom, so everyone, diving deeply within himself in

.. a detached way can obtain the pearl of the Self.

The salient thing here is that the diver sinks; he doesn't

swim. The implication is that diving happens when the

mind becomes quiet.

Here's a quote in which Bhagavan defines "dive":

.. The word 'diving' is appropriate to the state

.. of outgoing tendencies when the mind is to be

.. diverted and turned within, so as to dive below

.. the surface of externalities. But when deep

.. quietness prevails without obstructing the

.. consciousness, where is the need to dive? If the

.. state be not realised as the Self, the effort to do

.. so may be called 'diving'. The state may in that way

.. be said to be suitable for realisation or 'diving'.

.. (Talks article 348.)

You mention this quotation from "The Technique of

Maha Yoga" by N.R. Narayana Aiyer:

> It suggested focussing on the heart

> centre on an exhalation after breath retention.

> I prefer focussing and diving on the retention

In my opinion, this is just plain wrong. Self-enquiry

is a search for the true nature of I by focusing on the

feeling of I and tracing it back (or down, to continue

the diving metaphor). It has nothing to do with

focussig on objects.

If you're looking at an object (i.e. if you're aware

of something) you're not doing self-enquiry. As

soon as you notice that you're aware of something,

ask yourself, "Who is aware of it?" and try to move

your attention back. You're trying to invert the

attention, trying to catch the I who is paying

attention.

Breath retention is merely an optional helpful

adjunct to self-enquiry that can help make the mind

quiet.

If you want to read an accurate commentary written by

a direct disciple of Sri Ramana, I recommend

one or both of the following:

Sri Sadhu Om, The Path of Sri Ramana

Who (K. Lakshmana Sarma), Maha Yoga

I also strongly recommend the three chapters on

self-enquiry in David Godman's anthology, "Be As

You Are." David has digested all the literature,

interviewed all the direct disciples, and done a

superb job of collecting accurate, essential

highlights in one place.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

Saturday, September 21, 2002 1:18 AM

[RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

> Dear Friends , I would appreciate it if any one has any practical advice on

this thispractice .The

> Ashram published a book called The Technique of Maha Yoga .It suggested

focussing on the heart

> centre on an exhalation after breath retention .I prefer focussing and

diving on the retention

> .What do others find best for them ? Yours in Bhagavan Alan

>

September 21, 2002

--- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

<HR>

Dear Rob - yes this is one method - but there is another way connected with

inhalation

-exhalation and breath retention mentioned in ramana's essay on Self Enquiry

{Collected

Works}.The object is the right side of the chest - which Ramana often designated

a portal to the

Heart and could be meditated on for beginners .he did say do what ever you find

to be easiest .My

approach is partly yours on some occaisions . but also a technique like in Maha

Yoga or

incorporating some Raja Yoga . I welcome hearing different approaches - the more

irons in the fire

the better to suit different times and states .regards Alan

<tt>

Dear Alan,

In my opinion, "diving" really means, "become quiet

by looking inward, and allow the mind to sink."

Let me provide two quotations.

The first one illustrates the picture that Bhagavan

had in mind when he said "dive." This quote comes

from "Who Am I?" which was given as a basic text

to every ashram visitor:

.. Just as a pearl diver, tying a stone to his waist,

.. dives into the sea and takes the pearl lying on the

.. bottom, so everyone, diving deeply within himself in

.. a detached way can obtain the pearl of the Self.

The salient thing here is that the diver sinks; he doesn't

swim. The implication is that diving happens when the

mind becomes quiet.

Here's a quote in which Bhagavan defines "dive":

.. The word 'diving' is appropriate to the state

.. of outgoing tendencies when the mind is to be

.. diverted and turned within, so as to dive below

.. the surface of externalities. But when deep

.. quietness prevails without obstructing the

.. consciousness, where is the need to dive? If the

.. state be not realised as the Self, the effort to do

.. so may be called 'diving'. The state may in that way

.. be said to be suitable for realisation or 'diving'.

.. (Talks article 348.)

You mention this quotation from "The Technique of

Maha Yoga" by N.R. Narayana Aiyer:

> It suggested focussing on the heart

> centre on an exhalation after breath retention.

> I prefer focussing and diving on the retention

In my opinion, this is just plain wrong. Self-enquiry

is a search for the true nature of I by focusing on the

feeling of I and tracing it back (or down, to continue

the diving metaphor). It has nothing to do with

focussig on objects.

If you're looking at an object (i.e. if you're aware

of something) you're not doing self-enquiry. As

soon as you notice that you're aware of something,

ask yourself, "Who is aware of it?" and try to move

your attention back. You're trying to invert the

attention, trying to catch the I who is paying

attention.

Breath retention is merely an optional helpful

adjunct to self-enquiry that can help make the mind

quiet.

If you want to read an accurate commentary written by

a direct disciple of Sri Ramana, I recommend

one or both of the following:

Sri Sadhu Om, The Path of Sri Ramana

Who (K. Lakshmana Sarma), Maha Yoga

I also strongly recommend the three chapters on

self-enquiry in David Godman's anthology, "Be As

You Are." David has digested all the literature,

interviewed all the direct disciples, and done a

superb job of collecting accurate, essential

highlights in one place.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs>

Saturday, September 21, 2002 1:18 AM

[RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

> Dear Friends , I would appreciate it if any one has any practical advice on

this thispractice

..The

> Ashram published a book called The Technique of Maha Yoga .It

suggested focussing on

the heart

> centre on an exhalation after breath retention .I prefer

focussing and diving on

the retention

> .What do others find best for them ? Yours in Bhagavan Alan

>

</tt>

Sponsor</td>

</tr>

<td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td

align=center><font

face=arial size=-2> <a

href="http://rd./M=229441.2336363.3766536.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060\

955:HM/A=1189558/R=0/*http://www.bmgmusic.com/acq/ee/q6/enroll/mhn/9/"

target=_top><img

src=" " alt=""

width="300" height="250" border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>

</tr>

<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1

src="http://us.adserver./l?M=229441.2336363.3766536.1261774/D=egroupmai\

l/S=:HM/A=1189558/rand=654487493"></td></tr>

</table>

<tt>

Post message: RamanaMaharshi

Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

Un: RamanaMaharshi-

List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

Shortcut URL to this page:

<a

href="/community/RamanaMaharshi"> Terms of Service</a>.</tt>

</body></html>

Everything you'll ever need on one web page

from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

http://uk.my.''>http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my.

September 21, 2002

Dear Alan,

> but there is another way connected with

> inhalation exhalation and breath retention

> mentioned in ramana's essay on Self Enquiry

The methods described in that document are not

self-enquiry. Although the essay is called

"Self-enquiry" it consists of questions and answers

about other paths. Bhagavan's prose description

of self-enquiry is contained in "Who Am I?" in

sections 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, and 19.

> My approach is partly yours on some occaisions .

It's not my approach. It's the method of self-enquiry

as understood not only by me, but also by Bhagavan's

major commentators, including the three I recommended

to you in my previous message.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:14 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

> --- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

> <HR>

> <html><body>

> Dear Rob - yes this is one method - but there is another way connected with

inhalation

> -exhalation and breath retention mentioned in ramana's essay on Self Enquiry

{Collected

> Works}.The object is the right side of the chest - which Ramana often

designated a portal to the

> Heart and could be meditated on for beginners .he did say do what ever you

find to be easiest .My

> approach is partly yours on some occaisions . but also a technique like in

Maha Yoga or

> incorporating some Raja Yoga . I welcome hearing different approaches - the

more irons in the fire

> the better to suit different times and states .regards Alan

>

September 21, 2002

I've noticed two things about this group:

Everyone that posts lives by Bhagavan's every word and can quote, on a dime,

from just about every text he ever produced.

And yet, all that goes on here is nit picking about differences of views. If two

people on this list have a different view, then the joust is on.

I myself had to tell someone that 'they knew best' on this list just so that he

would let me have my opinion, which seemed to satisfy him to finally let me have

my thoughts unchallenged.

In other words, unless you want a dual, keep it to yourself.

PEOPLE, stop living by every word in every booklet and catch the spirit. You

don't have to correct everybody into your world viewpoint, let everyone else be

who they are. State your point and be done with it. There is no need to be

'right' all the time.

I am sure you all mean well, but you are largely missing the spirit, and the

point, when you post this way.

Learn to let people have their say, and to have your say, then LET IT GO.

I haven't seen this much henpecking since I was little on the farm and fed the

chickens.

Guru Om

M

-

Rob Sacks

RamanaMaharshi

Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:19 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

Dear Alan,

> but there is another way connected with

> inhalation exhalation and breath retention

> mentioned in ramana's essay on Self Enquiry

The methods described in that document are not

self-enquiry. Although the essay is called

"Self-enquiry" it consists of questions and answers

about other paths. Bhagavan's prose description

of self-enquiry is contained in "Who Am I?" in

sections 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, and 19.

> My approach is partly yours on some occaisions .

It's not my approach. It's the method of self-enquiry

as understood not only by me, but also by Bhagavan's

major commentators, including the three I recommended

to you in my previous message.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:14 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

> --- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

> <HR>

> <html><body>

> Dear Rob - yes this is one method - but there is another way connected with

inhalation

> -exhalation and breath retention mentioned in ramana's essay on Self Enquiry

{Collected

> Works}.The object is the right side of the chest - which Ramana often

designated a portal to the

> Heart and could be meditated on for beginners .he did say do what ever you

find to be easiest .My

> approach is partly yours on some occaisions . but also a technique like in

Maha Yoga or

> incorporating some Raja Yoga . I welcome hearing different approaches - the

more irons in the fire

> the better to suit different times and states .regards Alan

>

Sponsor

Post message: RamanaMaharshi

Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

Un: RamanaMaharshi-

List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

Shortcut URL to this page:

/community/RamanaMaharshi

September 21, 2002

--- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

<HR>

Dear Rob - the thrust of what you say is broadly correct - but on Page 8o of Be

As You Are you

will find 'Of course there is also the practice of meditation on the heart

Centre.it is only a

practice and not investigation`This I found on Page 116 of Talks.``"On page 72

ibid Godman writes

he did sometimes say that putting attention on this centre is a good

concentration practice....

although there are several potentially ambiguous comments of this kind .....In

my view this means

that Bhagavan out of compassion for the devotee who needed an aid allowed

meditation on the right

side . My own experience coincides with Lucia Osborne {Jan 1971 ] "Meditation

on the spiritual

heart on the right side means concentrating or listening to it fully

attentive.Its vibration or

heart beats will manifest with time .A place is assigned to it as a focussing

point ...."This is

the spurana I have felt from this practice .Why did the Ashram allow the

publication of a

Technique if it was not permitted ?My conclusion is that you and David are

Broadly right in your

interpretation - but he did allow concentration or meditation on the right side

of the chest for

those who found it beneficial .Maybe it is a prepation for Self Enquiry .In the

famous verse from

Ramana Gita 2 v 2 on diving into the heart , line 6 is "or with breath under

check" Why ? A most

useful discussion and I am grateful for your elucidation with the reservations

expressed above

..Yours in Him Alan

P.S.

I also recall another statement in talks -but I cannot find it at the moment -

that meditation on

the right side of the chest is useful for those who want to know what stillness

is .Of couse we

all agree that the Heart has no location , but the right-side of the chest plays

some part in his

teaching and as an aid for meditation

<tt>

Dear Gabriele,

> shortly before you joined this group there was a

> vivid discussion here about meditation on the

> Heart centre.

For Alan's benefit I would like to state my opinion

about this again.

Bhagavan said over and over again that self-enquiry

does not involve voluntary concentration on the Heart-

centre. It is a misunderstanding of his teaching to think

that we are supposed to perform Self-enqury by

voluntarily focusing our attention on sensations in the

right side of the chest.

Since that earlier thread occurred a few days ago, I

noticed that David Godman agrees with me that this

is a misunderstanding. He discusses it in a chapter

called "Self-Enquiry -- Misconceptions" in his best-

known book, "Be As You Are." I'll quote just a tiny

bit of what David says:

.. This belief that the mind can, by its own

.. activities, reach the Self is the root of most

.. of the misconceptions about self-enquiry. A

.. classic example of this is the belief that self-

.. enquiry involves concentrating on a particular

.. centre of the body called the Heart-centre. This

.. widely-held view results from a misinter-

.. pretation of some of Sri Ramana's statements

.. on the Heart, and to understand how the belief

.. has come about, it will be necessary to take a

.. closer look at some of his ideas on the subject.

.. (page 71).

David goes on to describe what Bhagavan really said

about the Heart-centre, and he provides numerous

quotations to back up his analysis.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert>

Saturday, September 21, 2002 3:31 AM

[RamanaMaharshi] Re: Diving Into The Heart

</tt>

Sponsor</td>

</tr>

<td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td

align=center> <a

href="http://rd./M=233214.2377745.3805144.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060\

955:HM/A=1227861/R=0/*http://ads.track-star.com/linker.ts?ts=1;2;312;3_2_11"><im\

g

src=" "

alt="" width="300"

height="250" border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>

</tr>

<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1

src="http://us.adserver./l?M=233214.2377745.3805144.1261774/D=egroupmai\

l/S=:HM/A=1227861/rand=195399786"></td></tr>

</table>

<tt>

Post message: RamanaMaharshi

Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

Un: RamanaMaharshi-

List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

Shortcut URL to this page:

<a

href="/community/RamanaMaharshi"> Terms of Service</a>.</tt>

</body></html>

Everything you'll ever need on one web page

from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

http://uk.my.''>http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my.

September 21, 2002

Dear M,

> PEOPLE, stop living by every word in every

> booklet and catch the spirit.

I agree with the spirit of your message but not the

letter. Therefore I will continue nitpicking.

(That was my idea of a joke at 5 in the morning.)

Seriously -- on most topics I agree with you. But

in this case, when we're talking about the essential

basic instructions for the sadhana that Sri Ramana

advocated, I think it's a good thing to read the

texts closely and try to elminate misunderstandings.

The documents on this subject are very confusing.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"M" <trika

Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:52 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

> I've noticed two things about this group:

>

> Everyone that posts lives by Bhagavan's every word and can quote, on a dime,

from just about every text he ever produced.

>

> And yet, all that goes on here is nit picking about differences of views. If

two people on this list have a different view, then

the joust is on.

>

> I myself had to tell someone that 'they knew best' on this list just so that

he would let me have my opinion, which seemed to

satisfy him to finally let me have my thoughts unchallenged.

>

> In other words, unless you want a dual, keep it to yourself.

>

> PEOPLE, stop living by every word in every booklet and catch the spirit. You

don't have to correct everybody into your world

viewpoint, let everyone else be who they are. State your point and be done with

it. There is no need to be 'right' all the time.

>

> I am sure you all mean well, but you are largely missing the spirit, and the

point, when you post this way.

>

> Learn to let people have their say, and to have your say, then LET IT GO.

>

> I haven't seen this much henpecking since I was little on the farm and fed the

chickens.

>

> Guru Om

> M

>

> -

> Rob Sacks

> RamanaMaharshi

> Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:19 AM

> Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

>

> Dear Alan,

>

> > but there is another way connected with

> > inhalation exhalation and breath retention

> > mentioned in ramana's essay on Self Enquiry

>

> The methods described in that document are not

> self-enquiry. Although the essay is called

> "Self-enquiry" it consists of questions and answers

> about other paths. Bhagavan's prose description

> of self-enquiry is contained in "Who Am I?" in

> sections 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, and 19.

>

> > My approach is partly yours on some occaisions .

>

> It's not my approach. It's the method of self-enquiry

> as understood not only by me, but also by Bhagavan's

> major commentators, including the three I recommended

> to you in my previous message.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Rob

>

> -

> "Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

> <RamanaMaharshi>

> Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:14 AM

> Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

>

> > --- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

> > <HR>

> > <html><body>

> > Dear Rob - yes this is one method - but there is another way connected with

inhalation

> > -exhalation and breath retention mentioned in ramana's essay on Self

Enquiry {Collected

> > Works}.The object is the right side of the chest - which Ramana often

designated a portal to the

> > Heart and could be meditated on for beginners .he did say do what ever you

find to be easiest .My

> > approach is partly yours on some occaisions . but also a technique like in

Maha Yoga or

> > incorporating some Raja Yoga . I welcome hearing different approaches - the

more irons in the fire

> > the better to suit different times and states .regards Alan

> >

>

> Sponsor

>

> Post message: RamanaMaharshi

> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

> Un: RamanaMaharshi-

> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/RamanaMaharshi

>

> Post message: RamanaMaharshi

> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

> Un: RamanaMaharshi-

> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/RamanaMaharshi

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

September 21, 2002

Dear Rob , I think we can close where you say in a recent E Mail , ,

'but a means which can be used '.I do not feel we are nitpicking but clarifying

our understanding

..I am learning from our exchange .

<

Everything you'll ever need on one web page

from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

http://uk.my.

September 21, 2002

Dear Alan,

It may be Talk 131 that you are indicating..

'...Of course there is also the practice of meditation on the

heart-centre. It is only a practice and not investigation. Only the

one who meditates on the heart can remin aware when the mind ceases

to

be active and remains still; whereas those who meditate on other

centres cannot be so aware but infer that the mind was still only

after it becomes active again.' (Ramana Maharshi)

Miles

=========

> I also recall another statement in talks -but I cannot find it at

the moment - that meditation on

> the right side of the chest is useful for those who want to know

what stillness is .Of couse we

> all agree that the Heart has no location , but the right-side of

the

chest plays some part in his

> teaching and as an aid for medi

September 21, 2002

--- Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta wrote:

<HR>

Dear Miles ,fellow UK Member .Thanks I am most grateful and will put it on file

..best regards Alan

<tt>

Dear Alan,

It may be Talk 131 that you are indicating..

'...Of course there is also the practice of meditation on the

heart-centre. It is only a practice and not investigation. Only the

one who meditates on the heart can remin aware when the mind ceases

to

be active and remains still; whereas those who meditate on other

centres cannot be so aware but infer that the mind was still only

after it becomes active again.' (Ramana Maharshi)

Miles

=========

> I also recall another statement in talks -but I cannot find it at

the moment - that meditation on

> the right side of the chest is useful for those who want to know

what stillness is .Of couse we

> all agree that the Heart has no location , but the right-side of

the

chest plays some part in his

> teaching and as an aid for medi

</tt>

Sponsor</td>

</tr>

<td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td

align=center> <a

href="http://rd./M=226671.2265556.3698777.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060\

955:HM/A=1232749/R=0/* Terms of Service</a>.</tt>

</body></html>

Everything you'll ever need on one web page

from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

http://uk.my.''>http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my.

September 21, 2002

Dear Alan,

> but on Page 8o of Be As You Are you will find 'Of

> course there is also the practice of meditation on the

> heart Centre.it is only a practice and not investigation`

Yes, I agree. "It's not investigation." That's all I've

been saying. (Investigation is a synonym for self-

enquiry.)

I thought our subject has been, "What exactly is

self-enquiry?"

Yes, Bhagavan did say that concentration on the heart-

center will help develop concentration. I hope I

didn't deny that -- I don't think I did.

He never forbids it. Did he ever forbid anything?

That wasn't his style.

But let's not jump to the conclusion that he

*recommended* this type of meditation. (More on

this below.)

> In the famous verse from Ramana Gita 2 v 2

> on diving into the heart , line 6 is "or with

> breath under check" Why ?

Because he recommended pranayama as a method

of diving for people who could not control the mind

directly. (See Talks article 448.)

And because he taught that even when pranayama is

not practiced deliberately as an aid, it happens

automatically.

And because he taught that when either mind or

breath subside, they both subside.

He himself, during the 15 minutes that he practiced

Self-enquiry, when he became self-realized at age 16,

held his breath deliberately:

.. I imitated a corpse to lend an air of reality

.. to my further investigation, I held my breath

.. and kept my mouth closed, pressing the lips

.. tightly together so that no sound might escape...

.. (Self-Realization by B.V. Narasimha Swami,

.. page 21.)

His own experience at age 16 seems to have been

the model for the practice that he advocated for

other people.

> In my view this means that Bhagavan out of

> compassion for the devotee who needed an

> aid allowed meditation on the right

> side .

Well certainly he allowed it. He hardly ever

told people flat out, "Don't do that." But here's

the thing --

There are dozens of places in the Talks book where

he recommends pranayama. And dozens of places

where he recommends japa. But to my knowledge,

there is no recorded instance, anywhere, of his

recommending concentration on the heart center.

And when the subject did come up, he made a

point of telling the questioner that this type of

concentration is not self-enquiry.

Incidentally, we should probably mention that

when people complained that self-enquiry is too

difficult, he sometimes told them to think "I, I, I..."

I'm not sure whether that's japa or enquiry or

something in between or whether it matters.

> My own experience coincides with Lucia Osborne

> {Jan 1971 ] "Meditation on the spiritual heart on the

> right side means concentrating or listening to it fully

> attentive.Its vibration or heart beats will manifest

> with time .A place is assigned to it as a focussing

> point ...."This is the spurana I have felt from this

> practice .

I have no desire or competence to quarrel with your

experience! My only aim has been to clarify what Sri

Ramana said about this subject.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

Saturday, September 21, 2002 7:04 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Diving Into The Heart

September 21, 2002

Dear M,

I was the one to whom you said that "You know best."

I study with Nome, who, to use Miles' words is one "Realized in the

Heart."

You were posting your negative options about a teacher that you had

never studied with, and since he did not meet your preconceived ideas

of what a teacher should do or be, you were posting incorrect

information and very negative opinions.

Now you post negative comments about some other who is trying to be

so gracious as to correct a common misconception in another's

practice. One area where this newsgroup can help is in understanding

Ramana's Self-inquiry. This has been called a "formless" practice,

and there are many misconceptions about it (like use a medatitative

focus on a physical center within the body) that can interfere with a

seeker's practice.

Instead of your negative comments, is there some contribution that

you can make to this group that can help us deepen our practice? That

would be more useful.

We are Not two,

Richard

RamanaMaharshi, "M" <trika@b...> wrote:

>

> I myself had to tell someone that 'they knew best' on this list

just so that he would let me have my opinion, which seemed to satisfy

him to finally let me have my thoughts unchallenged.

>

September 21, 2002

om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Alan,

You're welcome and thank you for motivating me to

look up these quotes and clarify things in my own

mind.

Your friend,

Rob

September 21, 2002

--- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

<HR>

Dear Rob , thanks for your competent reply to my original question .I feel we

have covered the

ground adequately and I would not disagree with your conclusion .Best regards ,

in Him , Alan

<tt>

Dear Alan,

> but on Page 8o of Be As You Are you will find 'Of

> course there is also the practice of meditation on the

> heart Centre.it is only a practice and not investigation`

Yes, I agree. "It's not investigation." That's all

I've

been saying. (Investigation is a synonym for self-

enquiry.)

I thought our subject has been, "What exactly is

self-enquiry?"

Yes, Bhagavan did say that concentration on the heart-

center will help develop concentration. I hope I

didn't deny that -- I don't think I did.

He never forbids it. Did he ever forbid anything?

That wasn't his style.

But let's not jump to the conclusion that he

*recommended* this type of meditation. (More on

this below.)

> In the famous verse from Ramana Gita 2 v 2

> on diving into the heart , line 6 is "or with

> breath under check" Why ?

Because he recommended pranayama as a method

of diving for people who could not control the mind

directly. (See Talks article 448.)

And because he taught that even when pranayama is

not practiced deliberately as an aid, it happens

automatically.

And because he taught that when either mind or

breath subside, they both subside.

He himself, during the 15 minutes that he practiced

Self-enquiry, when he became self-realized at age 16,

held his breath deliberately:

.. I imitated a corpse to lend an air of reality

.. to my further investigation, I held my breath

.. and kept my mouth closed, pressing the lips

.. tightly together so that no sound might escape...

.. (Self-Realization by B.V. Narasimha Swami,

.. page 21.)

His own experience at age 16 seems to have been

the model for the practice that he advocated for

other people.

> In my view this means that Bhagavan out of

> compassion for the devotee who needed an

> aid allowed meditation on the right

> side .

Well certainly he allowed it. He hardly ever

told people flat out, "Don't do that." But here's

the thing --

There are dozens of places in the Talks book where

he recommends pranayama. And dozens of places

where he recommends japa. But to my knowledge,

there is no recorded instance, anywhere, of his

recommending concentration on the heart center.

And when the subject did come up, he made a

point of telling the questioner that this type of

concentration is not self-enquiry.

Incidentally, we should probably mention that

when people complained that self-enquiry is too

difficult, he sometimes told them to think "I, I, I..."

I'm not sure whether that's japa or enquiry or

something in between or whether it matters.

> My own experience coincides with Lucia Osborne

> {Jan 1971 ] "Meditation on the spiritual heart on the

> right side means concentrating or listening to it fully

> attentive.Its vibration or heart beats will manifest

> with time .A place is assigned to it as a focussing

> point ...."This is the spurana I have felt from this

> practice .

I have no desire or competence to quarrel with your

experience! My only aim has been to clarify what Sri

Ramana said about this subject.

Best regards,

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs>

Saturday, September 21, 2002 7:04 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Diving Into The Heart

</tt>

Sponsor</td>

</tr>

<td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td

align=center> <a

href="http://rd./M=233214.2377745.3805144.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060\

955:HM/A=1227861/R=0/*http://ads.track-star.com/linker.ts?ts=1;2;312;3_2_11"><im\

g

src=" "

alt="" width="300"

height="250" border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>

</tr>

<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1

src="http://us.adserver./l?M=233214.2377745.3805144.1261774/D=egroupmai\

l/S=:HM/A=1227861/rand=300842226"></td></tr>

</table>

<tt>

Post message: RamanaMaharshi

Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

Un: RamanaMaharshi-

List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

Shortcut URL to this page:

<a

href="/community/RamanaMaharshi"> Terms of Service</a>.</tt>

</body></html>

Everything you'll ever need on one web page

from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

http://uk.my.''>http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my.

September 21, 2002

Dear Richard,

> is there some contribution that you can make to this group that can

> help us deepen our practice?

Wonderful. This, surely, is a question worth asking before replying

to posts.

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

Miles

September 21, 2002

Dear M,

An afterthought popped into my mind when I

woke up today.

Studying the Guru's words is like drinking the

water in which the Guru's feet are bathed.

Maybe this idea is an example of the fact that

strange things can happen culturally when East

meets West, I don't know. But the spirit of the

thing, it seems to me, is undeniable and universally

recognizable, because it is deeper than culture.

You say catch the spirit; I reflect this excellent

advice back to you.

Rob

-

"M" <trika

Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:52 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Diving Into The Heart

>

Diving Into The Heart

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Support the Ashram

Join Groups

Top Downloads