Guest guest Posted November 1, 2002 Report Share Posted November 1, 2002 Question: When you say 'meditate on us [on Lakshmana and Saradamma] in the Heart' do you mean that I should visualise an image in the Heart-centre in the same way that you used to do before you realised the Self? Saradamma: No, that is not the real Heart meditation; it is just an exercise in concentration. Meditation in the Heart really means that you should make the mind go back into the Heart so that you can experience the bliss of the Self there. If you are thinking about anything, even mine or Swamy's form, then the mind is still active. While the mind is still active it will not sink back into its source. If you can give up all thoughts and make the mind completely silent and still, then it will automatically sink into the Heart. Meditation in the Heart really begins when the mind rests quietly in the Heart, absorbed in the bliss of the Self. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No Mind, I am the Self ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2002 Report Share Posted November 1, 2002 Dear Gabriele, Very good post. It is easy for a seeker to be confused by all this talk of medatitation or inquiry focused on the "heart." It is easy for a seeker to take this in some physical way, and mistake this for inquiry. I feel that I did so earlier in my own practice. To be sure of what is meant by the sp[iritual "heart," I have asked my teacher, Nome, in satsang about this. His answers have been clear that the spiritual "heart" is not anything physical. As he talks I hear that the Heart and the Self are one and the same. I come to understand that these terms are interchangable, and just different means of approaching the One Reality (as Sat-Chit-Ananda -- Being-Consciousness-Bliss are used as another 'Name' for Absolute Being, and each part of the 'name' shows one 'face' or aspect of Undivided Absolute Being). Whatever are the words, they are just pointers. The seeker has just to focus on what is being pointed to. What is being pointed to? Who am I? Are they any different? (If it seems so, then more inquiry is called for). We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > Question: > When you say 'meditate on us [on Lakshmana and Saradamma] in the > Heart' do you mean that I should visualise an image in the Heart- centre > in the same way that you used to do before you realised the Self? > > Saradamma: > No, that is not the real Heart meditation; it is just an exercise in > concentration. Meditation in the Heart really means that you should > make the mind go back into the Heart so that you can experience the > bliss of the Self there. If you are thinking about anything, even mine or > Swamy's form, then the mind is still active. > While the mind is still active it will not sink back into its source. > If you can give up all thoughts and make the mind completely silent > and still, then it will automatically sink into the Heart. > Meditation in the Heart really begins when the mind rests quietly > in the Heart, absorbed in the bliss of the Self. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > No Mind, I am the Self > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dear Richard, right, all terms may be interchangable and are only pointers. The Heart in the absolute sense is the Self. It is not anything phyisical - but the physical is also not out of it. So it can reveal itself also in the physical. Ramana has told his own experiences of the Heart centre - especially this at Tortoise Rock. So there may be no contradiction. The only what has to be clear is that one may never stop vichara, but when the Heart manifests itself in some way one may drive vichara then more deeper and the investigation of the mind sinks then in the Heart. This is important point so far I understand. Any comment about that is welcome. In Sri Ramana Gabriele > To be sure of what is meant by the sp[iritual "heart," I have asked > my teacher, Nome, in satsang about this. His answers have been clear > that the spiritual "heart" is not anything physical. As he talks I > hear that the Heart and the Self are one and the same. > > I come to understand that these terms are interchangable, and just > different means of approaching the One Reality (as Sat-Chit-Ananda - - > Being-Consciousness-Bliss are used as another 'Name' for Absolute > Being, and each part of the 'name' shows one 'face' or aspect of > Undivided Absolute Being). > > Whatever are the words, they are just pointers. The seeker has just > to focus on what is being pointed to. What is being pointed to? Who > am I? Are they any different? (If it seems so, then more inquiry is > called for). > > We are Not two, > Richard > > RamanaMaharshi, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > > Question: > > When you say 'meditate on us [on Lakshmana and Saradamma] in the > > Heart' do you mean that I should visualise an image in the Heart- > centre > > in the same way that you used to do before you realised the Self? > > > > Saradamma: > > No, that is not the real Heart meditation; it is just an exercise > in > > concentration. Meditation in the Heart really means that you should > > make the mind go back into the Heart so that you can experience the > > bliss of the Self there. If you are thinking about anything, even > mine or > > Swamy's form, then the mind is still active. > > While the mind is still active it will not sink back into its > source. > > If you can give up all thoughts and make the mind completely silent > > and still, then it will automatically sink into the Heart. > > Meditation in the Heart really begins when the mind rests quietly > > in the Heart, absorbed in the bliss of the Self. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > No Mind, I am the Self > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 I agree with Gabriele - I am sure this is the right view .Many people find the rt.side of the chest a doorway - not all .My own expeience is that it does lead there-of course ulimately the Heart has no centre . In Him , Alan --- gabriele_ebert <g.ebert wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Dear Richard, <BR> <BR> right, all terms may be interchangable and are only pointers. <BR> The Heart in the absolute sense is the Self. <BR> It is not anything phyisical - but the physical is also not out of <BR> it. So it can reveal itself also in the physical. Ramana has told his <BR> own experiences of the Heart centre - especially this at Tortoise <BR> Rock. So there may be no contradiction. The only what has to be clear <BR> is that one may never stop vichara, but when the Heart manifests <BR> itself in some way one may drive vichara then more deeper and the <BR> investigation of the mind sinks then in the Heart. This is important <BR> point so far I understand. <BR> Any comment about that is welcome.<BR> <BR> In Sri Ramana <BR> Gabriele<BR> <BR> > To be sure of what is meant by the sp[iritual "heart," I have asked <BR> > my teacher, Nome, in satsang about this. His answers have been <BR> clear <BR> > that the spiritual "heart" is not anything physical. As he talks I <BR> > hear that the Heart and the Self are one and the same. <BR> > <BR> > I come to understand that these terms are interchangable, and just <BR> > different means of approaching the One Reality (as Sat-Chit-Ananda -<BR> - <BR> > Being-Consciousness-Bliss are used as another 'Name' for Absolute <BR> > Being, and each part of the 'name' shows one 'face' or aspect of <BR> > Undivided Absolute Being). <BR> > <BR> > Whatever are the words, they are just pointers. The seeker has just <BR> > to focus on what is being pointed to. What is being pointed to? Who <BR> > am I? Are they any different? (If it seems so, then more inquiry is <BR> > called for).<BR> > <BR> > We are Not two,<BR> > Richard<BR> > <BR> > RamanaMaharshi, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:<BR> > > Question: <BR> > > When you say 'meditate on us [on Lakshmana and Saradamma] in the <BR> > > Heart' do you mean that I should visualise an image in the Heart-<BR> > centre <BR> > > in the same way that you used to do before you realised the Self? <BR> > > <BR> > > Saradamma: <BR> > > No, that is not the real Heart meditation; it is just an exercise <BR> > in <BR> > > concentration. Meditation in the Heart really means that you <BR> should <BR> > > make the mind go back into the Heart so that you can experience <BR> the <BR> > > bliss of the Self there. If you are thinking about anything, even <BR> > mine or <BR> > > Swamy's form, then the mind is still active. <BR> > > While the mind is still active it will not sink back into its <BR> > source. <BR> > > If you can give up all thoughts and make the mind completely <BR> silent <BR> > > and still, then it will automatically sink into the Heart. <BR> > > Meditation in the Heart really begins when the mind rests quietly <BR> > > in the Heart, absorbed in the bliss of the Self. <BR> > > <BR> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR> > > No Mind, I am the Self<BR> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR> > > <BR> > > <BR> > > <BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <tt> <BR> Post message: RamanaMaharshi <BR> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- <BR> Un: RamanaMaharshi- <BR> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner <BR> <BR> Shortcut URL to this page:<BR> <a href="/community/RamanaMaharshi"> Terms of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.''>http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dear Gabriele, One thing that Nome talks about is one's "stand." By stand he means where one places their identity. I now have the deep conviction, bordering on direct knowledge, that all that exists is Consciousness (to use one part of Being- Counsciousness-Bliss) and that this Consciousness and this Being are never separated. My day-to-day experience though, is still mainly as this "Richard." I asked Nome recently about this, and he said to notice that I was creating "a second 'I'" and to use this to deepen the inquiry. Since I know at some deep level that there is only Consciousness, then this appearance of the second 'I' is like the appearance of silver in the mother-of-pearl. (For whom is this appearance?) So as I start the inquiry now, after first noticing that I exist, then starting the inquiry (I know that I exist, so "Who am I?"), if the inquiry does not take me directly to the quiet mind or deeper, I will notice my stand at that moment. Usually I see this stand is as the individual Richard, in this place, with this body and senses and life energy. This sense of Richard, I have notice seems somehow 'bounded'in my awareness. Seeing this individualized 'Richard' I can then inquire something like, "Who knows this?" or "For whom is this?" and the inquiry usually turns deeper. I notice that when this happens, the sense of the 'bounded Richard' starts to fall away, and somehow there seems to be more 'space'. Nome does not talk much about "falling into the Heart" or such. He continues to say, "Eliminate what is not real, and the Real will shine." (Or he might talk about falling into the Heart, and I simply cannot yet hear that. I don;t thinnk this is so, but certainly there have been many other things like that, where he has said the same thing many times over the years, and I simply could not hear what he said until I was ready to hear it.) Another subject: There is a SAT member that I am aware of who lives in Germany. Her sister lives at the SAT temple. Whould you like me to find out her name and send it to you? I appreciate your presence in this newsgroup. So much. Thank you. We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > Dear Richard, > > right, all terms may be interchangable and are only pointers. > The Heart in the absolute sense is the Self. > It is not anything phyisical - but the physical is also not out of > it. So it can reveal itself also in the physical. Ramana has told his > own experiences of the Heart centre - especially this at Tortoise > Rock. So there may be no contradiction. The only what has to be clear > is that one may never stop vichara, but when the Heart manifests > itself in some way one may drive vichara then more deeper and the > investigation of the mind sinks then in the Heart. This is important > point so far I understand. > Any comment about that is welcome. > > In Sri Ramana > Gabriele > > > To be sure of what is meant by the sp[iritual "heart," I have asked > > my teacher, Nome, in satsang about this. His answers have been > clear > > that the spiritual "heart" is not anything physical. As he talks I > > hear that the Heart and the Self are one and the same. > > > > I come to understand that these terms are interchangable, and just > > different means of approaching the One Reality (as Sat-Chit- Ananda - > - > > Being-Consciousness-Bliss are used as another 'Name' for Absolute > > Being, and each part of the 'name' shows one 'face' or aspect of > > Undivided Absolute Being). > > > > Whatever are the words, they are just pointers. The seeker has just > > to focus on what is being pointed to. What is being pointed to? Who > > am I? Are they any different? (If it seems so, then more inquiry is > > called for). > > > > We are Not two, > > Richard > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > > > Question: > > > When you say 'meditate on us [on Lakshmana and Saradamma] in the > > > Heart' do you mean that I should visualise an image in the Heart- > > centre > > > in the same way that you used to do before you realised the Self? > > > > > > Saradamma: > > > No, that is not the real Heart meditation; it is just an exercise > > in > > > concentration. Meditation in the Heart really means that you > should > > > make the mind go back into the Heart so that you can experience > the > > > bliss of the Self there. If you are thinking about anything, even > > mine or > > > Swamy's form, then the mind is still active. > > > While the mind is still active it will not sink back into its > > source. > > > If you can give up all thoughts and make the mind completely > silent > > > and still, then it will automatically sink into the Heart. > > > Meditation in the Heart really begins when the mind rests quietly > > > in the Heart, absorbed in the bliss of the Self. > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > No Mind, I am the Self > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dear Richard, perhaps - like Alan said - the Heart experience (is on the experience level, this one may not forget; there is still the I experiencing) is not for all - but for some it is a natural key, which reveals itself in time - and, what seems important, a key for deepening vichara and surrender. So all what you say about your practicing vichara and what Nome says is very the heart of the teaching. There is no contradiction. Diving into the Heart is perhaps more connected with the Bhakti-path. Nome is not so much a Bhakta - as I understand - so this may be a reason for this - but is only speculation now. > Nome does not talk much about "falling into the Heart" or such. He > continues to say, "Eliminate what is not real, and the Real will > shine." (Or he might talk about falling into the Heart, and I simply > cannot yet hear that. I don;t thinnk this is so, but certainly there > have been many other things like that, where he has said the same > thing many times over the years, and I simply could not hear what he > said until I was ready to hear it.) > > Another subject: There is a SAT member that I am aware of who lives > in Germany. Her sister lives at the SAT temple. Whould you like me to > find out her name and send it to you? Yes, you might do. > > I appreciate your presence in this newsgroup. So much. Thank you. I also appreciate all your sharings. in Sri Ramana Gabriele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dear Gabriele, Certainly I would never deny what you describe as a 'natural key' for some of diving into the heart. Blessed are those who do so. You are right about Nome, his focus is on Self-inquiry. Which is how he came to Self-realization. A number of years ago, Nome taught in ways that included surrender (as something that he could talk in depth about and teach, even though his own realization came from his inquiry). A number of years ago, apparently he decided to teach only inquiry, I have heard that he saw little real spiritual progress among those at SAT whose practice was devotional, and so focused his teaching where he saw people deepening. I was not at SAT when this happened. I was there before it, and heard teaching from Nome that included surrender. I had to 'drop out' for a few years because of personal issues. When I returned, there were fewer people at satsang, and the focus was just on Self-inquiry. I do not hear Nome discourage or denigrate other practices. In fact, I hear him encourage respect for all other religions and spiritual practices. I do hear him encourage inquiry. I do hear him say that Realization consists entirely of knowledge, Knowledge of the Self. I do hear him say that self-effort is required. This has been the basis of my own practice. So my comments are coming from the framework of practice of Self- inquiry. As always, thank you for your comments and participation in this group. We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > > Dear Richard, > > perhaps - like Alan said - the Heart experience (is on the experience > level, this one may not forget; there is still the I experiencing) is > not for all - but for some it is a natural key, which reveals itself > in time - and, what seems important, a key for deepening vichara and > surrender. So all what you say about your practicing vichara and > what Nome says is very the heart of the teaching. There is no > contradiction. > Diving into the Heart is perhaps more connected with the Bhakti- path. > Nome is not so much a Bhakta - as I understand - so this may be a > reason for this - but is only speculation now. > > > Nome does not talk much about "falling into the Heart" or such. He > > continues to say, "Eliminate what is not real, and the Real will > > shine." (Or he might talk about falling into the Heart, and I > simply > > cannot yet hear that. I don;t thinnk this is so, but certainly > there > > have been many other things like that, where he has said the same > > thing many times over the years, and I simply could not hear what > he > > said until I was ready to hear it.) > > > > Another subject: There is a SAT member that I am aware of who lives > > in Germany. Her sister lives at the SAT temple. Whould you like me > to > > find out her name and send it to you? > > Yes, you might do. > > > > I appreciate your presence in this newsgroup. So much. Thank you. > > I also appreciate all your sharings. > > in Sri Ramana > Gabriele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dear Richard , Gabriele and all interested in this important topic , Our approach at the U.K .Ramana Foundation is that Self Enquiry and Surrender are the two wings of the Garuda Bird on which we fly home .Both can be practiced at almost the same time depending on the mode of the inner state [juxtaposition of the Gunas] as it happens .Robert Adams taught both as did Ramana because they suit people of differing temperaments .I know that people have awakened through Surrender and some through Self Enquiry .Most people in the west prefer Surrender because they lack the basis of spiritual practice essential for Self Enquiry and penetrative diving into the Heart .Of course eventually they merge into Oneness as the Surrenderer and Enquirer are both subsumed in the Self .Love in the grace of our Sat Guru Ramana , Alan P.S .Our inspirational President Sri V.Ganesan at Arunachala emphasises Self Enquiry but is also a great Ramana Bakta . --- Richard Clarke <r_clarke wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Dear Gabriele,<BR> <BR> Certainly I would never deny what you describe as a 'natural key' for <BR> some of diving into the heart. Blessed are those who do so. <BR> <BR> You are right about Nome, his focus is on Self-inquiry. Which is how <BR> he came to Self-realization. <BR> <BR> A number of years ago, Nome taught in ways that included surrender <BR> (as something that he could talk in depth about and teach, even <BR> though his own realization came from his inquiry). A number of years <BR> ago, apparently he decided to teach only inquiry, I have heard that <BR> he saw little real spiritual progress among those at SAT whose <BR> practice was devotional, and so focused his teaching where he saw <BR> people deepening. <BR> <BR> I was not at SAT when this happened. I was there before it, and heard <BR> teaching from Nome that included surrender. I had to 'drop out' for a <BR> few years because of personal issues. When I returned, there were <BR> fewer people at satsang, and the focus was just on Self-inquiry. I do <BR> not hear Nome discourage or denigrate other practices. In fact, I <BR> hear him encourage respect for all other religions and spiritual <BR> practices. I do hear him encourage inquiry. I do hear him say that <BR> Realization consists entirely of knowledge, Knowledge of the Self. I <BR> do hear him say that self-effort is required. This has been the basis <BR> of my own practice. <BR> <BR> So my comments are coming from the framework of practice of Self-<BR> inquiry.<BR> <BR> As always, thank you for your comments and participation in this <BR> group. <BR> <BR> We are Not two,<BR> Richard<BR> <BR> <BR> RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:<BR> > <BR> > Dear Richard, <BR> > <BR> > perhaps - like Alan said - the Heart experience (is on the <BR> experience <BR> > level, this one may not forget; there is still the I experiencing) <BR> is <BR> > not for all - but for some it is a natural key, which reveals <BR> itself <BR> > in time - and, what seems important, a key for deepening vichara <BR> and <BR> > surrender. So all what you say about your practicing vichara and <BR> > what Nome says is very the heart of the teaching. There is no <BR> > contradiction. <BR> > Diving into the Heart is perhaps more connected with the Bhakti-<BR> path. <BR> > Nome is not so much a Bhakta - as I understand - so this may be a <BR> > reason for this - but is only speculation now. <BR> > <BR> > > Nome does not talk much about "falling into the Heart" or such. <BR> He <BR> > > continues to say, "Eliminate what is not real, and the Real will <BR> > > shine." (Or he might talk about falling into the Heart, and I <BR> > simply <BR> > > cannot yet hear that. I don;t thinnk this is so, but certainly <BR> > there <BR> > > have been many other things like that, where he has said the same <BR> > > thing many times over the years, and I simply could not hear what <BR> > he <BR> > > said until I was ready to hear it.)<BR> > > <BR> > > Another subject: There is a SAT member that I am aware of who <BR> lives <BR> > > in Germany. Her sister lives at the SAT temple. Whould you like <BR> me <BR> > to <BR> > > find out her name and send it to you? <BR> > <BR> > Yes, you might do. <BR> > > <BR> > > I appreciate your presence in this newsgroup. So much. Thank you. <BR> > <BR> > I also appreciate all your sharings. <BR> > <BR> > in Sri Ramana<BR> > Gabriele<BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <tt> <BR> Post message: RamanaMaharshi <BR> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- <BR> Un: RamanaMaharshi- <BR> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner <BR> <BR> Shortcut URL to this page:<BR> <a href="/community/RamanaMaharshi"> Terms of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.''>http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dear Alan, I am glad to hear that both at taught at the U.K. Center. As you say, different people have different temperments. I have also found that love of the teaching and love of the teacher can be a big aide to practice. Nome talks about love and Surrender, and the giving up of all, especially the ego, to the Guru. He says that any releasing of the ego is in the right direction. And complete dissolution of ego IS Liberation. It also seems to me that, since all there is is Brahman, that anyplace where the seeker goes, if they go deep enough, they will find Brahman. I was just saying that Nome's focus is clearly Inquiry. And that by this he does not exclude Surrender nor any other practice. And he teaches primarily inquiry. Ramana said more than once that since all paths end in inquiry, why not start with inquiry? Ramana also encouraged people to take whatever practice they had to the deepest. I suspect that for Americans, that Surrender, real surrender that gives ALL to Guru (even ones ego), is probably hard. We are trained almost from birth to be 'own own person'. This is just a notion of mine, though, and should not be given any particular weight. Meanwhile, I have to say that I LOVE the path of INQUIRY. (Does that put the two together an I way that makes sense?) We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > > Dear Richard , Gabriele and all interested in this important topic , > Our approach at the U.K .Ramana Foundation is that Self Enquiry and Surrender are the two wings of > the Garuda Bird on which we fly home .Both can be practiced at almost the same time depending on > the mode of the inner state [juxtaposition of the Gunas] as it happens .Robert Adams taught both > as did Ramana because they suit people of differing temperaments .I know that people have > awakened through Surrender and some through Self Enquiry .Most people in the west prefer Surrender > because they lack the basis of spiritual practice essential for Self Enquiry and penetrative > diving into the Heart .Of course eventually they merge into Oneness as the Surrenderer and > Enquirer are both > subsumed in the Self .Love in the grace of our Sat Guru Ramana , Alan > P.S .Our inspirational President Sri V.Ganesan at Arunachala emphasises Self Enquiry but is also > a great Ramana Bakta . > > > > --- Richard Clarke <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > <HR> > <html><body> > > > <tt> > Dear Gabriele,<BR> > <BR> > Certainly I would never deny what you describe as a 'natural key' for <BR> > some of diving into the heart. Blessed are those who do so. <BR> > <BR> > You are right about Nome, his focus is on Self-inquiry. Which is how <BR> > he came to Self-realization. <BR> > <BR> > A number of years ago, Nome taught in ways that included surrender <BR> > (as something that he could talk in depth about and teach, even <BR> > though his own realization came from his inquiry). A number of years <BR> > ago, apparently he decided to teach only inquiry, I have heard that <BR> > he saw little real spiritual progress among those at SAT whose <BR> > practice was devotional, and so focused his teaching where he saw <BR> > people deepening. <BR> > <BR> > I was not at SAT when this happened. I was there before it, and heard <BR> > teaching from Nome that included surrender. I had to 'drop out' for a <BR> > few years because of personal issues. When I returned, there were <BR> > fewer people at satsang, and the focus was just on Self-inquiry. I do <BR> > not hear Nome discourage or denigrate other practices. In fact, I <BR> > hear him encourage respect for all other religions and spiritual <BR> > practices. I do hear him encourage inquiry. I do hear him say that <BR> > Realization consists entirely of knowledge, Knowledge of the Self. I <BR> > do hear him say that self-effort is required. This has been the basis <BR> > of my own practice. <BR> > <BR> > So my comments are coming from the framework of practice of Self- <BR> > inquiry.<BR> > <BR> > As always, thank you for your comments and participation in this <BR> > group. <BR> > <BR> > We are Not two,<BR> > Richard<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" g.ebert@g... wrote:<BR> > > <BR> > > Dear Richard, <BR> > > <BR> > > perhaps - like Alan said - the Heart experience (is on the <BR> > experience <BR> > > level, this one may not forget; there is still the I experiencing) <BR> > is <BR> > > not for all - but for some it is a natural key, which reveals <BR> > itself <BR> > > in time - and, what seems important, a key for deepening vichara <BR> > and <BR> > > surrender. So all what you say about your practicing vichara and <BR> > > what Nome says is very the heart of the teaching. There is no <BR> > > contradiction. <BR> > > Diving into the Heart is perhaps more connected with the Bhakti-<BR> > path. <BR> > > Nome is not so much a Bhakta - as I understand - so this may be a <BR> > > reason for this - but is only speculation now. <BR> > > <BR> > > > Nome does not talk much about "falling into the Heart" or such. <BR> > He <BR> > > > continues to say, "Eliminate what is not real, and the Real will <BR> > > > shine." (Or he might talk about falling into the Heart, and I <BR> > > simply <BR> > > > cannot yet hear that. I don;t thinnk this is so, but certainly <BR> > > there <BR> > > > have been many other things like that, where he has said the same <BR> > > > thing many times over the years, and I simply could not hear what <BR> > > he <BR> > > > said until I was ready to hear it.)<BR> > > > <BR> > > > Another subject: There is a SAT member that I am aware of who <BR> > lives <BR> > > > in Germany. Her sister lives at the SAT temple. Whould you like <BR> > me <BR> > > to <BR> > > > find out her name and send it to you? <BR> > > <BR> > > Yes, you might do. <BR> > > > <BR> > > > I appreciate your presence in this newsgroup. So much. Thank you. <BR> > > <BR> > > I also appreciate all your sharings. <BR> > > <BR> > > in Sri Ramana<BR> > > Gabriele<BR> > <BR> > </tt> > > > <br> > <tt> > <BR> > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o...<BR> > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- @o...<BR> > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o...<BR> > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o...<BR> > <BR> > Shortcut URL to this page:<BR> > <a > href="/community/RamanaMaharshi"> > Terms of Service</a>.</tt> > </br> > > </body></html> > > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.''>http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2002 Report Share Posted November 2, 2002 Dear Richard . thank you for making it so clear - I feel we are in concordance - all love in the joy of our teaching , Alan --- Richard Clarke <r_clarke wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Dear Alan,<BR> <BR> I am glad to hear that both at taught at the U.K. Center. As you say, <BR> different people have different temperments. I have also found that <BR> love of the teaching and love of the teacher can be a big aide to <BR> practice. <BR> <BR> Nome talks about love and Surrender, and the giving up of all, <BR> especially the ego, to the Guru. He says that any releasing of the <BR> ego is in the right direction. And complete dissolution of ego IS <BR> Liberation. <BR> <BR> It also seems to me that, since all there is is Brahman, that <BR> anyplace where the seeker goes, if they go deep enough, they will <BR> find Brahman. <BR> <BR> I was just saying that Nome's focus is clearly Inquiry. And that by <BR> this he does not exclude Surrender nor any other practice. And he <BR> teaches primarily inquiry.<BR> <BR> Ramana said more than once that since all paths end in inquiry, why <BR> not start with inquiry? Ramana also encouraged people to take <BR> whatever practice they had to the deepest. <BR> <BR> I suspect that for Americans, that Surrender, real surrender that <BR> gives ALL to Guru (even ones ego), is probably hard. We are trained <BR> almost from birth to be 'own own person'. This is just a notion of <BR> mine, though, and should not be given any particular weight. <BR> <BR> Meanwhile, I have to say that I LOVE the path of INQUIRY. (Does that <BR> put the two together an I way that makes sense?) <BR> <BR> We are Not two,<BR> Richard<BR> <BR> RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs> wrote:<BR> > <BR> > Dear Richard , Gabriele and all interested in this important <BR> topic , <BR> > Our approach at the U.K .Ramana Foundation is that Self Enquiry and <BR> Surrender are the two wings of<BR> > the Garuda Bird on which we fly home .Both can be practiced at <BR> almost the same time depending on<BR> > the mode of the inner state [juxtaposition of the Gunas] as it <BR> happens .Robert Adams taught both <BR> > as did Ramana because they suit people of differing temperaments .I <BR> know that people have<BR> > awakened through Surrender and some through Self Enquiry .Most <BR> people in the west prefer Surrender<BR> > because they lack the basis of spiritual practice essential for <BR> Self Enquiry and penetrative<BR> > diving into the Heart .Of course eventually they merge into Oneness <BR> as the Surrenderer and<BR> > Enquirer are both<BR> > subsumed in the Self .Love in the grace of our Sat Guru Ramana , <BR> Alan <BR> > P.S .Our inspirational President Sri V.Ganesan at Arunachala <BR> emphasises Self Enquiry but is also<BR> > a great Ramana Bakta .<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > --- Richard Clarke <r_clarke@i...> wrote: <BR> > <HR><BR> > <html><body><BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <tt><BR> > Dear Gabriele,<BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > Certainly I would never deny what you describe as a 'natural key' <BR> for <BR><BR> > some of diving into the heart. Blessed are those who do so. <BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > You are right about Nome, his focus is on Self-inquiry. Which is <BR> how <BR><BR> > he came to Self-realization. <BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > A number of years ago, Nome taught in ways that included surrender <BR> <BR><BR> > (as something that he could talk in depth about and teach, even <BR><BR> > though his own realization came from his inquiry). A number of <BR> years <BR><BR> > ago, apparently he decided to teach only inquiry, I have heard that <BR> <BR><BR> > he saw little real spiritual progress among those at SAT whose <BR><BR> > practice was devotional, and so focused his teaching where he saw <BR> <BR><BR> > people deepening. <BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > I was not at SAT when this happened. I was there before it, and <BR> heard <BR><BR> > teaching from Nome that included surrender. I had to 'drop out' for <BR> a <BR><BR> > few years because of personal issues. When I returned, there were <BR> <BR><BR> > fewer people at satsang, and the focus was just on Self-inquiry. I <BR> do <BR><BR> > not hear Nome discourage or denigrate other practices. In fact, I <BR> <BR><BR> > hear him encourage respect for all other religions and spiritual <BR> <BR><BR> > practices. I do hear him encourage inquiry. I do hear him say that <BR> <BR><BR> > Realization consists entirely of knowledge, Knowledge of the Self. <BR> I <BR><BR> > do hear him say that self-effort is required. This has been the <BR> basis <BR><BR> > of my own practice. <BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > So my comments are coming from the framework of practice of Self-<BR> <BR><BR> > inquiry.<BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > As always, thank you for your comments and participation in this <BR> <BR><BR> > group. <BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > We are Not two,<BR><BR> > Richard<BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" g.ebert@g... <BR> wrote:<BR><BR> > > <BR><BR> > > Dear Richard, <BR><BR> > > <BR><BR> > > perhaps - like Alan said - the Heart experience (is on the <BR><BR> > experience <BR><BR> > > level, this one may not forget; there is still the I <BR> experiencing) <BR><BR> > is <BR><BR> > > not for all - but for some it is a natural key, which reveals <BR> <BR><BR> > itself <BR><BR> > > in time - and, what seems important, a key for deepening <BR> vichara <BR><BR> > and <BR><BR> > > surrender. So all what you say about your practicing vichara <BR> and <BR><BR> > > what Nome says is very the heart of the teaching. There <BR> is no <BR><BR> > > contradiction. <BR><BR> > > Diving into the Heart is perhaps more connected with the <BR> Bhakti-<BR><BR> > path. <BR><BR> > > Nome is not so much a Bhakta - as I understand - so this may <BR> be a <BR><BR> > > reason for this - but is only speculation now. <BR><BR> > > <BR><BR> > > > Nome does not talk much about "falling into the <BR> Heart" or such. <BR><BR> > He <BR><BR> > > > continues to say, "Eliminate what is not real, and <BR> the Real will <BR><BR> > > > shine." (Or he might talk about falling into the <BR> Heart, and I <BR><BR> > > simply <BR><BR> > > > cannot yet hear that. I don;t thinnk this is so, but <BR> certainly <BR><BR> > > there <BR><BR> > > > have been many other things like that, where he has said <BR> the same <BR><BR> > > > thing many times over the years, and I simply could not <BR> hear what <BR><BR> > > he <BR><BR> > > > said until I was ready to hear it.)<BR><BR> > > > <BR><BR> > > > Another subject: There is a SAT member that I am aware of <BR> who <BR><BR> > lives <BR><BR> > > > in Germany. Her sister lives at the SAT temple. Whould <BR> you like <BR><BR> > me <BR><BR> > > to <BR><BR> > > > find out her name and send it to you? <BR><BR> > > <BR><BR> > > Yes, you might do. <BR><BR> > > > <BR><BR> > > > I appreciate your presence in this newsgroup. So much. <BR> Thank you. <BR><BR> > > <BR><BR> > > I also appreciate all your sharings. <BR><BR> > > <BR><BR> > > in Sri Ramana<BR><BR> > > Gabriele<BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > </tt><BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <br><BR> > <tt><BR> > <BR><BR> > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o...<BR><BR> > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-<BR> @o...<BR><BR> > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o...<BR><BR> > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o...<BR><BR> > <BR><BR> > Shortcut URL to this page:<BR><BR> > <a<BR> > <BR> href="<a href="/community/RamanaMaharshi"> uot;><BR> > Terms of Service</a>.</tt><BR> > </br><BR> > <BR> > </body></html><BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > Everything you'll ever need on one web page<BR> > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts<BR> > <a href="http://uk.my.">http://uk.my.</a><BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <tt> <BR> Post message: RamanaMaharshi <BR> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- <BR> Un: RamanaMaharshi- <BR> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner <BR> <BR> Shortcut URL to this page:<BR> <a href="/community/RamanaMaharshi">/co\ mmunity/RamanaMaharshi</a></tt> <br> <br> <tt><a href=""> Terms of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 Dear Richard, All is agreed what you say - only one additional remark: If one reads especially Ramana's hymns to Arunachala this is pure bhakti and at the same time pure jnana. In Sadguru Ramana both find to a natural union: jnana and bhakti. Many Ramana-devotees practice both in some combination according to their tendencies. At last both is found to be only one. In the Heart there is no difference. It is good to be centred only on atma vichara as your teacher says. But sometimes with bhakti the mind is more willing to return to its source - this is according to one's tendencies of course. For example the Ramana-mantra "Om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya" envokes such bhakti. In Sri Ramana Gabriele > A number of years ago, Nome taught in ways that included surrender > (as something that he could talk in depth about and teach, even > though his own realization came from his inquiry). A number of years > ago, apparently he decided to teach only inquiry, I have heard that > he saw little real spiritual progress among those at SAT whose > practice was devotional, and so focused his teaching where he saw > people deepening. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 Dear Gabriele, Certainly both love and inquiry work together in practice. Nome has said, that in some of the older writings, where not much is talked of the the love for the Guru, that the love clearly shows in places where they talk about a devotee spending 30 years with the teacher (or such). Again, I have seen times in my own practice where love opens the door. I understand love as a lessening of one's ego-'I', so it is natural that more love = less ego = deeper practice (of whatever form, be it Surrender or Inquiry). Finally it is the 'task' of the seeker to know that their identity as Brahman. Whether this is done by Knowledge (Inquiry) or by Love (where the ego is COMPLETELY given up) does not matter. Thank you for keeping this dailog going. It is good to ensure that there is room for all who seek Liberation, by whatever means. WE are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > Dear Richard, > > All is agreed what you say - only one additional remark: > If one reads especially Ramana's hymns to Arunachala this is pure > bhakti and at the same time pure jnana. > In Sadguru Ramana both find to a natural union: jnana and bhakti. > Many Ramana-devotees practice both in some combination according to > their tendencies. At last both is found to be only one. In the Heart > there is no difference. > It is good to be centred only on atma vichara as your teacher says. > But sometimes with bhakti the mind is more willing to return to its > source - this is according to one's tendencies of course. For example > the Ramana-mantra "Om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya" envokes such > bhakti. > > In Sri Ramana > Gabriele > > > > A number of years ago, Nome taught in ways that included surrender > > (as something that he could talk in depth about and teach, even > > though his own realization came from his inquiry). A number of > years > > ago, apparently he decided to teach only inquiry, I have heard that > > he saw little real spiritual progress among those at SAT whose > > practice was devotional, and so focused his teaching where he saw > > people deepening. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 Have you read upadesha Sara? Bhakti is of course a means: surrender to arunAchala. jnAna is of course a means: "Who am I?" leads to anAtmachit. You neglect the third means, which is prAnayAma, restraint of the breath, which leads to the near-death experience, where brahman and atman can be easily known. A tap to www.theHungerSite.com will give somebody a cup of rice. ShalauM! Have you read Upadesha Sara _______________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.