Dear Alton and Vicki and other members

Posted November 24, 2002 · November 24, 2002

om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Sri Alton and Sri Vicki and other members,

Let me set a few things straight here.

I am the list owner now, a job entrusted to me by dear

sri Miles. I will continue this responsibility untill

he chooses to take over.

Sri Jiva Das was not barred from posting. He was

removed. I took this decision after due consideration.

Sri Miles and sri Gabriele were informed. It was a

decision I thought I need to take without delay. Else

I might have consulted them. It was not a decision

taken by Sri Miles or Gabriele.

Dear sri Alton! Your challenge to sri Miles (do your

humorous bit) and Sri Vicki's outbursts against sri

Gabriele are misdirected. You need to target Suri. But

unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the talent

to try a humorous bit! Will make an attempt later when

I find the time!

The group objectives as formulated are that of the

list owner and so they will stay. There is no

intention to revise the group objectives taking inputs

from a consensus of group members. In fact there is no

plan to consult any self-appointed representative of

the group in such decisons in the future. Sri Gabriele

was invited to become a moderator, when I found that I

was not finding enough time (and Sri vicki complained

to sri Miles about the absence of moderation in the

list, and imploring him to take over the list

ownership from me). This happended much before the

current episode.

Sri Gabriele will stay a moderator. This is not a

matter for negotiation or consensus. I will only go by

sri Miles' advise. That should more than suffice.

Dear Sri Alton! I understand your genuine concern for

Sri Jiva Das. Nothing prevents you from sharing your

thoughts and concern with him by personal emails. My

action of removing Sri Jiva Das from the group has

removed the scope for publication of personal

conversations with him as group posts. If there is a

desire to publish, a chatty group may be the right

forum. This is not one of our group objectives.

This group has remained unmoderated for quite some

time permitting activities not consistent with our

group objectives. Moderation of new group members was

introduced to keep vendors and crusaders of political

and other hues out of the group, some time ago. But it

was removed after complaints from Sri Vicki and

endorsed by Sri Alton, when she left the group and

rejoined as new member and found that she was a

moderated member. It took time for us to discover that

she has rejoined and before we could give her the

permission to post she was upset.

The last few days brought some beautiful postings. It

also brought out how anger can surface from under love

and wisdom, from under bhakti and vichara.

It may be time now to reconsider the way our group has

been functioning and take some decisions. Do we

continue as an open list or get back to moderated list

and request members to limit their posting to stated

list objectives, sharing their experience in their

sadhana and exclude personal conversations to personal

posts? Will discuss these and decide on sri Miles'

advise.

Dear Sri Vicki! No, there are no plans to ban you. But

this list is not the forum for your mails accusing sri

Gabriele. Your conversations with her should be by

personal mails. However if your abusive posts

continue, I will consider putting you under

moderation.

Dear Sri Alton! If Sri Jiva Das relents and promises

decent behavour his joining this group again may be

possible.

Bhagavan has in His own way made impurities in our

sadhana surface.

om gurave namah

suri

______________________

Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV.

visit http://in.tv.

Posted November 24, 2002 · November 24, 2002

Dear Suri , thank you so much for authoratively making the position so clear .I

am in full

agreement with every word you have written .Let us stop these abusive E Mails

,that some wish to

send .They set a dreadful example to devotees entering this list to witness a

row .It is time to

draw a line .In Sri Bhaganan's Grace , Alan

--- suri suryanarayan <suri_suryanarayan wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Sri Alton and Sri Vicki and other members,

Let me set a few things straight here.

I am the list owner now, a job entrusted to me by dear

sri Miles. I will continue this responsibility untill

he chooses to take over.

Sri Jiva Das was not barred from posting. He was

removed. I took this decision after due consideration.

Sri Miles and sri Gabriele were informed. It was a

decision I thought I need to take without delay. Else

I might have consulted them. It was not a decision

taken by Sri Miles or Gabriele.

Dear sri Alton! Your challenge to sri Miles (do your

humorous bit) and Sri Vicki's outbursts against sri

Gabriele are misdirected. You need to target Suri. But

unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the talent

to try a humorous bit! Will make an attempt later when

I find the time!

The group objectives as formulated are that of the

list owner and so they will stay. There is no

intention to revise the group objectives taking inputs

from a consensus of group members. In fact there is no

plan to consult any self-appointed representative of

the group in such decisons in the future. Sri Gabriele

was invited to become a moderator, when I found that I

was not finding enough time (and Sri vicki complained

to sri Miles about the absence of moderation in the

list, and imploring him to take over the list

ownership from me). This happended much before the

current episode.

Sri Gabriele will stay a moderator. This is not a

matter for negotiation or consensus. I will only go by

sri Miles' advise. That should more than suffice.

Dear Sri Alton! I understand your genuine concern for

Sri Jiva Das. Nothing prevents you from sharing your

thoughts and concern with him by personal emails. My

action of removing Sri Jiva Das from the group has

removed the scope for publication of personal

conversations with him as group posts. If there is a

desire to publish, a chatty group may be the right

forum. This is not one of our group objectives.

This group has remained unmoderated for quite some

time permitting activities not consistent with our

group objectives. Moderation of new group members was

introduced to keep vendors and crusaders of political

and other hues out of the group, some time ago. But it

was removed after complaints from Sri Vicki and

endorsed by Sri Alton, when she left the group and

rejoined as new member and found that she was a

moderated member. It took time for us to discover that

she has rejoined and before we could give her the

permission to post she was upset.

The last few days brought some beautiful postings. It

also brought out how anger can surface from under love

and wisdom, from under bhakti and vichara.

It may be time now to reconsider the way our group has

been functioning and take some decisions. Do we

continue as an open list or get back to moderated list

and request members to limit their posting to stated

list objectives, sharing their experience in their

sadhana and exclude personal conversations to personal

posts? Will discuss these and decide on sri Miles'

advise.

Dear Sri Vicki! No, there are no plans to ban you. But

this list is not the forum for your mails accusing sri

Gabriele. Your conversations with her should be by

personal mails. However if your abusive posts

continue, I will consider putting you under

moderation.

Dear Sri Alton! If Sri Jiva Das relents and promises

decent behavour his joining this group again may be

possible.

Bhagavan has in His own way made impurities in our

sadhana surface.

om gurave namah

suri

______________________

Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV.

visit <a

href="http://in.tv.">http://in.tv.</a>

</tt>

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Posted November 24, 2002 · November 24, 2002

Dear Alan,

You wrote:

> Let us stop these abusive E Mails ,that some

> wish to send. They set a dreadful example to

> devotees entering this list to witness a row.

> It is time to draw a line.

Of course you are absolutely right. An

atmosphere of peace and civility should be

maintained here, and occasionally the moderators

must use their authority to make that happen.

Clearly this is such an occasion, and I think

the list owners and moderator are doing what

they need to do.

And you're right that some people, especially

newcomers, may be turned off by the unpleasant

messages that have appeared here recently.

But I'd like to suggest to people who find

themselves recoiling from this "dreadful

example," as you call it, that it really isn't

so dreadful.

It's natural for a spiritual community to

attract troubled people, just as a hospital

attracts sick people. Would we think badly

of a hospital because we find sick people in

it? In fact we judge a hospital by the way

it treats sick people -- and perhaps a similar

standard should apply here.

Also, when people come into a spiritual

community, and when they meditate or practice

some other sadhana, they often act even nuttier

than usual. (Sri Suri mentioned this in one

of his posts.)

This phenomenon was particularly pronounced

during Sri Ramana Maharshi's lifetime, in his

ashram, because of the extraordinary effects

that were felt in his presence.

In plain English, people often flipped out

when they arrived at the ashram. Here's a

description by Chalam, one of Bhagavan's

devotees:

.. Those who came to Bhagavan reacted in various

.. ways. Some would immediately go into deep

.. meditation, whereas others would go away

.. unimpressed. Some visitors would laugh or

.. weep or cry out loudly that they were sinners.

.. Some would shout while others would go into

.. hysterics. Occasionally visitors would fall

.. down and lose consciousness. Sometimes new

.. people would start praising him, or they might

.. recite verses, or come up with extempore poems

.. in praise of him. Some new people would run up

.. to him and try to embrace him while others

.. would be content with prostrating innumerable

.. times. Many people tried to touch his feet

.. or press them to their eyes. Not all the

.. responses were favourable. Occasionally

.. visitors reviled or derided him. They would

.. question his greatness and deliberately flout

.. his instructions or wishes. Some would sing

.. songs before him while others, unimpressed

.. with his aloofness, would ask him to come

.. down from his pedestal and serve mankind. I

.. have even seen people kick themselves and

.. have convulsions in his presence.

.. (From "The Power of the Presence Part One, p. 204)

Finally, I'd like to suggest that there is a

natural tendency to expect spiritual communities

to be somehow elevated above the general run

of life. Certainly this is a noble aspiration

for people in spiritual communities. But we

are taught that God doesn't turn up his (her?)

nose at the ugly bits, and in fact, that everything

is divine.

Rob

> RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs>

wrote:

> Dear Suri , thank you so much for authoratively making the

position so clear .I am in full

> agreement with every word you have written .Let us stop these

abusive E Mails ,that some wish to

> send .They set a dreadful example to devotees entering this list to

witness a row .It is time to

> draw a line .In Sri Bhaganan's Grace , Alan

>

Posted November 24, 2002 · November 24, 2002

Dear Rob , I feel your letter is a very sane and 'satvic'appraisal of the

situation and would not

wish to differ from it one iota .Regards Alan

--- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Dear Alan,

You wrote:

> Let us stop these abusive E Mails ,that some

> wish to send. They set a dreadful example to

> devotees entering this list to witness a row.

> It is time to draw a line.

Of course you are absolutely right. An

atmosphere of peace and civility should be

maintained here, and occasionally the moderators

must use their authority to make that happen.

Clearly this is such an occasion, and I think

the list owners and moderator are doing what

they need to do.

And you're right that some people, especially

newcomers, may be turned off by the unpleasant

messages that have appeared here recently.

But I'd like to suggest to people who find

themselves recoiling from this "dreadful

example," as you call it, that it really isn't

so dreadful.

It's natural for a spiritual community to

attract troubled people, just as a hospital

attracts sick people. Would we think badly

of a hospital because we find sick people in

it? In fact we judge a hospital by the way

it treats sick people -- and perhaps a similar

standard should apply here.

Also, when people come into a spiritual

community, and when they meditate or practice

some other sadhana, they often act even nuttier

than usual. (Sri Suri mentioned this in one

of his posts.)

This phenomenon was particularly pronounced

during Sri Ramana Maharshi's lifetime, in his

ashram, because of the extraordinary effects

that were felt in his presence.

In plain English, people often flipped out

when they arrived at the ashram. Here's a

description by Chalam, one of Bhagavan's

devotees:

.. Those who came to Bhagavan reacted in various

.. ways. Some would immediately go into deep

.. meditation, whereas others would go away

.. unimpressed. Some visitors would laugh or

.. weep or cry out loudly that they were sinners.

.. Some would shout while others would go into

.. hysterics. Occasionally visitors would fall

.. down and lose consciousness. Sometimes new

.. people would start praising him, or they might

.. recite verses, or come up with extempore poems

.. in praise of him. Some new people would run up

.. to him and try to embrace him while others

.. would be content with prostrating innumerable

.. times. Many people tried to touch his feet

.. or press them to their eyes. Not all the

.. responses were favourable. Occasionally

.. visitors reviled or derided him. They would

.. question his greatness and deliberately flout

.. his instructions or wishes. Some would sing

.. songs before him while others, unimpressed

.. with his aloofness, would ask him to come

.. down from his pedestal and serve mankind. I

.. have even seen people kick themselves and

.. have convulsions in his presence.

.. (From "The Power of the Presence Part One, p. 204)

Finally, I'd like to suggest that there is a

natural tendency to expect spiritual communities

to be somehow elevated above the general run

of life. Certainly this is a noble aspiration

for people in spiritual communities. But we

are taught that God doesn't turn up his (her?)

nose at the ugly bits, and in fact, that everything

is divine.

Rob

> RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs>

wrote:

> Dear Suri , thank you so much for authoratively making the

position so clear .I am in full

> agreement with every word you have written .Let us stop these

abusive E Mails ,that some wish to

> send .They set a dreadful example to devotees entering this list to

witness a row .It is time to

> draw a line .In Sri Bhaganan's Grace , Alan

>

</tt>

<tt>

Post message: RamanaMaharshi

Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

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Posted November 24, 2002 · November 24, 2002

Dear Suri:

You are a credit to your devotion to Sri Ramana.

I have not disagreement to anything your stated except the reference

to Miles and I will do it off line.

Aloha,

Alton

RamanaMaharshi, suri suryanarayan

<suri_suryanarayan> wrote:

> om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

>

> Dear Sri Alton and Sri Vicki and other members,

>

> Let me set a few things straight here.

>

> I am the list owner now, a job entrusted to me by dear

> sri Miles. I will continue this responsibility untill

> he chooses to take over.

>

> Sri Jiva Das was not barred from posting. He was

> removed. I took this decision after due consideration.

> Sri Miles and sri Gabriele were informed. It was a

> decision I thought I need to take without delay. Else

> I might have consulted them. It was not a decision

> taken by Sri Miles or Gabriele.

>

> Dear sri Alton! Your challenge to sri Miles (do your

> humorous bit) and Sri Vicki's outbursts against sri

> Gabriele are misdirected. You need to target Suri. But

> unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the talent

> to try a humorous bit! Will make an attempt later when

> I find the time!

>

> The group objectives as formulated are that of the

> list owner and so they will stay. There is no

> intention to revise the group objectives taking inputs

> from a consensus of group members. In fact there is no

> plan to consult any self-appointed representative of

> the group in such decisons in the future. Sri Gabriele

> was invited to become a moderator, when I found that I

> was not finding enough time (and Sri vicki complained

> to sri Miles about the absence of moderation in the

> list, and imploring him to take over the list

> ownership from me). This happended much before the

> current episode.

>

> Sri Gabriele will stay a moderator. This is not a

> matter for negotiation or consensus. I will only go by

> sri Miles' advise. That should more than suffice.

>

> Dear Sri Alton! I understand your genuine concern for

> Sri Jiva Das. Nothing prevents you from sharing your

> thoughts and concern with him by personal emails. My

> action of removing Sri Jiva Das from the group has

> removed the scope for publication of personal

> conversations with him as group posts. If there is a

> desire to publish, a chatty group may be the right

> forum. This is not one of our group objectives.

>

> This group has remained unmoderated for quite some

> time permitting activities not consistent with our

> group objectives. Moderation of new group members was

> introduced to keep vendors and crusaders of political

> and other hues out of the group, some time ago. But it

> was removed after complaints from Sri Vicki and

> endorsed by Sri Alton, when she left the group and

> rejoined as new member and found that she was a

> moderated member. It took time for us to discover that

> she has rejoined and before we could give her the

> permission to post she was upset.

>

> The last few days brought some beautiful postings. It

> also brought out how anger can surface from under love

> and wisdom, from under bhakti and vichara.

>

> It may be time now to reconsider the way our group has

> been functioning and take some decisions. Do we

> continue as an open list or get back to moderated list

> and request members to limit their posting to stated

> list objectives, sharing their experience in their

> sadhana and exclude personal conversations to personal

> posts? Will discuss these and decide on sri Miles'

> advise.

>

> Dear Sri Vicki! No, there are no plans to ban you. But

> this list is not the forum for your mails accusing sri

> Gabriele. Your conversations with her should be by

> personal mails. However if your abusive posts

> continue, I will consider putting you under

> moderation.

>

> Dear Sri Alton! If Sri Jiva Das relents and promises

> decent behavour his joining this group again may be

> possible.

>

> Bhagavan has in His own way made impurities in our

> sadhana surface.

>

> om gurave namah

>

> suri

>

____________________

__

> Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV.

> visit http://in.tv.

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