The Diver

November 22, 2002

I have tried to send this several times but it fired off too quickly .

"The diver does not linger scrutinizing the horizon ; he is not interested in

the changing scene

that plays on the surface of the sea .he knows only one dimension , the

dimension of depth ; one

movement , the vertical dive ; one environment , the "innerness" of the infinite

abyss ; one goal

on which he totally concentrates , the extensionless spot , the absolute

non-duality of the Self ,

wherefrom surges the principle of the finite 'ego' and all of mundane misery ."

Oliver Lacombe [Goldenn Jubilee Souvenir 1946 Ramanasramam.

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November 23, 2002

Dear Viorica , thanks for the interesting observation which hadn't struck me .of

course there arfe

no accidents .A deep dive in the Ganges water of the Self .I find refreshing

and cleansing .One

can begin again in the present moment , a fresh start to do what ever God wills,

then back to the

Heart .

Like fish we swim in the waters of Grace . Water seems a wonderful metaphor for

the Spirit ,

Varuna is a benevolent Goddess .All love in Sri Bhagavan , Alan

--- viorica weissman <viorica wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

dear Alan

i thought this very first empty Diver message was what

you wanted to share;

the Diver was nowhere in sight ;

then you sent three more but really i love the first ;

it made a tremendous impression on me;

which means to me that when we think we mistake

we actually can carry terrible good , unware of the fact;

thank you for the empty message

bhaktaX

Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs>

Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:50 AM

[RamanaMaharshi] The Diver

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November 24, 2002

RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs

> He also knows relative existence as a wave in the ocean of Being.

Thus, a Jnani is not disqualified from playing golf, lingering on a

beach watching a beautiful sunset, going to the movies; otherwise the

story would be "get Enllightened, end of existence". I think

it's "get Enlightened, beginning of your new life!"....qntmpkt.

>

> <tt>

> "THE DIVER DOES NOT LINGER SCRUTINIZING THE HORIZON ;HE IS NOT

INTERESTED IN THE CHANGING

> SCENE

> THAT PLAYS ON THE SURFACE OF THE SEA.HE KNOWS ONLY ONE

DIMENSION,THE DIMENSION OF DEPTH ;

> ;

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November 24, 2002

Who is it that is going to claim enlightment? And who is to say if

someone else is enlightened?

This very articulate take is from an unnamed person.

If you slog your way through the big "Talks With Sri Ramana

Maharshi" book, you'll find plenty of cases where somebody

asked Ramana if was realized. He never said yes. Instead

he always gave some kind of answer that suggested that the

question "are you realized" implies some misundestanding

on the questioner's part. He often answered something

along the lines of, "You are asking that question because you

are confusing the jnani with his body." I think he meant that

the guy in the body -- the person Ramana Maharshi --

could never get realized, because realization doesn't happen

to a person. In realization, the person is revealed to be an

illusion to whom nothing can happen because he was never

really there, so of course he can't get realized. The intelligence

that is revealed to have been in the background all along -- the

Self -- can't get realized either because it never changes. So

how can anything get realized? It can't.

Great job from and unnamed person.

Love,

Alton

RamanaMaharshi, "qntmpkt" <qntmpkt> wrote:

> RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs

>

> > He also knows relative existence as a wave in the ocean of Being.

> Thus, a Jnani is not disqualified from playing golf, lingering on a

> beach watching a beautiful sunset, going to the movies; otherwise

the

> story would be "get Enllightened, end of existence". I think

> it's "get Enlightened, beginning of your new life!"....qntmpkt.

> >

> > <tt>

> > "THE DIVER DOES NOT LINGER SCRUTINIZING THE HORIZON ;HE IS

NOT

> INTERESTED IN THE CHANGING

> > SCENE

> > THAT PLAYS ON THE SURFACE OF THE SEA.HE KNOWS ONLY ONE

> DIMENSION,THE DIMENSION OF DEPTH ;

> > ;

> >

> > Everything you'll ever need on one web page

> > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

> > <a href="http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my.">http://uk.my.'>http://uk.my.</a>

> > </tt>

> >

> >

> > <tt>

> >

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November 24, 2002

Dear Alton , the clasic answer to this paradoxical conundrum is that the truly

enlightned Sage

would never say "I am Enlightened " because it is a contradiction in terms .That

which claims "I

am Enlightened " would be the egotistic individualised personality -and it is

that which has to be

removed

by Grace , for Enlightenment to take place .Great Sages never say they are

enlightened - it is

implicit in their wisdom and presence .Others sense this and call them

Enlightened Beings

etc.etc.Hope this makes it clearer?Every best wish , Alan

--- Alton Slater <leenalton wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Who is it that is going to claim enlightment? And who is to say if

someone else is enlightened?

This very articulate take is from an unnamed person.

If you slog your way through the big "Talks With Sri Ramana

Maharshi" book, you'll find plenty of cases where somebody

asked Ramana if was realized. He never said yes. Instead

he always gave some kind of answer that suggested that the

question "are you realized" implies some misundestanding

on the questioner's part. He often answered something

along the lines of, "You are asking that question because you

are confusing the jnani with his body." I think he meant that

the guy in the body -- the person Ramana Maharshi --

could never get realized, because realization doesn't happen

to a person. In realization, the person is revealed to be an

illusion to whom nothing can happen because he was never

really there, so of course he can't get realized. The intelligence

that is revealed to have been in the background all along -- the

Self -- can't get realized either because it never changes. So

how can anything get realized? It can't.

Great job from and unnamed person.

Love,

Alton

RamanaMaharshi, "qntmpkt" <qntmpkt> wrote:

> RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs

>

> > He also knows relative existence as a wave in the ocean of Being.

> Thus, a Jnani is not disqualified from playing golf, lingering on a

> beach watching a beautiful sunset, going to the movies; otherwise

the

> story would be "get Enllightened, end of existence". I think

> it's "get Enlightened, beginning of your new

life!"....qntmpkt.

> >

> > <tt>

> > "THE DIVER DOES NOT LINGER SCRUTINIZING THE HORIZON ;HE IS

NOT

> INTERESTED IN THE CHANGING

> > SCENE

> > THAT PLAYS ON THE SURFACE OF THE SEA.HE KNOWS ONLY ONE

> DIMENSION,THE DIMENSION OF DEPTH ;

> > ;

> >

> > Everything you'll ever need on one web page

> > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

> > <a href="<a

href="http://uk.my.">http://uk.my.</a>"><a

href="http://uk.my.">http://uk.my.</a></a>

> > </tt>

> >

> >

> > <tt>

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RamanaMaharshi-

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November 24, 2002

Dear QNTMPKT , of course , you are right .He goes on apparantly doing what the

Divine Will

impells him to do ,according to its Destiny .The difference is that he is no

longer identified

with the mind body , but the witness of what is happening in that organism , and

a great deal ese

too - intuitions and intimations from the Self to which he is connected without

an egotism

creating the screen of separation .Regards Alan

--- qntmpkt <qntmpkt wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs

> He also knows relative existence as a wave in the ocean of Being.

Thus, a Jnani is not disqualified from playing golf, lingering on a

beach watching a beautiful sunset, going to the movies; otherwise the

story would be "get Enllightened, end of existence". I think

it's "get Enlightened, beginning of your new life!"....qntmpkt.

>

> <tt>

> "THE DIVER DOES NOT LINGER SCRUTINIZING THE HORIZON ;HE IS NOT

INTERESTED IN THE CHANGING

> SCENE

> THAT PLAYS ON THE SURFACE OF THE SEA.HE KNOWS ONLY ONE

DIMENSION,THE DIMENSION OF DEPTH ;

> ;

>

> Everything you'll ever need on one web page

> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

> <a href="<a

href="http://uk.my.">http://uk.my.</a>"><a

href="http://uk.my.">http://uk.my.</a></a>

> </tt>

>

>

> <tt>

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RamanaMaharshi-@o...

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November 24, 2002

Dear Alton,

Your unnamed friend wrote that Bhagavan never

said "yes" when asked whether he was a jnani

in any of the conversations described in the

big "Talks" book.

Actually, there is at least one conversation

in that book where he says he's a jnani,

although he wasn't answering the question

specified by your friend.

He says so indirectly, without using the words

"jnani" or "realization," but the meaning seems

unmistakeable to me.

In the legal testimony described in Article

281, a lawyer asked Bhagavan which asramama

(stage of life) he belonged to, and Bhagavan

replied, "atiasramam." This is a stage of life

described in the Suta Samhita of the Skanda

Purana. Only realized beings belong to it.

I've learned a few interesting details about

this testimony from an unpublished article

by David Godman which I've had the privilege

of reading. (This article will soon be published

on a new website that contains many works by

David, but it's not available yet.)

David's article reproduces part of the actual

transcript of the testimony (the account in

Talks is apparently a paraphrase from memory)

and explains the background.

According to David, the reason why the lawyer

asked Bhagavan this question was that he was

trying to prove that Bhagavan belonged to the

fourth asramama, sannyasa. Had that been the

case, Bhagavan would not have been able under

Indian law to own property and therefore he

could not have lawfully appointed his brother

to manage the ashram. In that case Perumal

Swami, who had brought the suit, would have

become the manager.

In other words, Perumal Swami was trying to

prove that Bhagavan was a sannyasin in order

to take the ashram away from Bhagavan.

Bhagavan neatly outfoxed the lawyer by citing

what seems to have been (judging from the

transcript) a rather obscure detail in a fairly

obscure scripture. Maybe Bhagavan was more

worldly than we sometimes think.

Rob

-- In RamanaMaharshi, "Alton Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote:

> Who is it that is going to claim enlightment? And who is to say if

> someone else is enlightened?

> This very articulate take is from an unnamed person.

November 24, 2002

Oops, I made a mistake in my previous message.

The article I mentioned by David Godman has

in fact been published in The Mountain Path in

1991. However the message is correct in stating

that the article will soon be republished on a

website.

RamanaMaharshi, "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote:

> Dear Alton,

>

> Your unnamed friend wrote that Bhagavan never

> said "yes" when asked whether he was a jnani

person.

November 25, 2002

Dear Rob:

You are the genius in residence.

Thanks for all this informative information about our Bhagavan Ramana,

Love,

Alton

RamanaMaharshi, "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote:

> Oops, I made a mistake in my previous message.

> The article I mentioned by David Godman has

> in fact been published in The Mountain Path in

> 1991. However the message is correct in stating

> that the article will soon be republished on a

> website.

>

> RamanaMaharshi, "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote:

> > Dear Alton,

> >

> > Your unnamed friend wrote that Bhagavan never

> > said "yes" when asked whether he was a jnani

> person.

November 25, 2002

Dear Alton,

Haha, David's the one who deserves the

credit.

I just love reading these old stories.

It's a great way to procastinate and avoid

doing enquiry.

Rob

RamanaMaharshi, "Alton Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote:

> Dear Rob:

> You are the genius in residence.

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