discarding sheaths

December 9, 2002

Dear Richard , there is a long dialogue in BE AS YOU ARE page 73 . it starts

where a questioner

asks"is not discarding of the sheaths mentioned in the sastras" - dialogue is

too long to post

..I expect everyone has the Godman Book anyhow .It may clarify the practice for

you and others .All

love , In Him, Alan .

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December 9, 2002

Dear Alan,

Good recommendation. It might be useful to go back

three pages in the same book and read what David says

in the introduction to that chapter:

.. Another widespread misunderstanding arose from

.. the Hindu belief that the Self could be discovered

.. by mentally rejecting all the objects of thought and

.. perception as not-Self. Traditionally this is called

.. the neti-neti approach (not this, not this)...

.. Sri Ramana's attitude to this traditional system of

.. self-analysis was wholly negative and he

.. discouraged his own followers from practising it by

.. telling them that it was an intellectual activity which

.. could not take them beyond the mind....[H]e would say

.. that the 'I'-thought is sustained by such acts of

.. discrimination and that the 'I' which eliminates the

.. body and the mind as 'not I' can never eliminate

.. itself.

.. -- Be As You Are, ed. D. Godman, pp. 70-71.

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

Monday, December 09, 2002 2:09 PM

[RamanaMaharshi] discarding sheaths

> Dear Richard , there is a long dialogue in BE AS YOU ARE page 73

December 9, 2002

Dear Rob , thanks for that hint, I missed reading the intro .I must say David

always puts things

very succinctly and clearly- his books are a great aid .Power of the Presence is

remarkably

valuable as is his Annamalai Book . We are very fortunate to have such a gifted

writer amongst

the Devotees .All love in Ramana , Alan

--- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Dear Alan,

Good recommendation. It might be useful to go back

three pages in the same book and read what David says

in the introduction to that chapter:

.. Another widespread misunderstanding arose from

.. the Hindu belief that the Self could be discovered

.. by mentally rejecting all the objects of thought and

.. perception as not-Self. Traditionally this is called

.. the neti-neti approach (not this, not this)...

.. Sri Ramana's attitude to this traditional system of

.. self-analysis was wholly negative and he

.. discouraged his own followers from practising it by

.. telling them that it was an intellectual activity which

.. could not take them beyond the mind....[H]e would say

.. that the 'I'-thought is sustained by such acts of

.. discrimination and that the 'I' which eliminates the

.. body and the mind as 'not I' can never eliminate

.. itself.

.. -- Be As You Are,

ed. D. Godman, pp.

70-71.

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs>

Monday, December 09, 2002 2:09 PM

[RamanaMaharshi] discarding sheaths

> Dear Richard , there is a long dialogue in BE AS YOU ARE page 73

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December 9, 2002

Dear Alan,

I agree completely. David is a treasure. It's as if

God sent him to us to compensate for making it so

difficult for us to figure out by reading books what

Bhagavan recommended for practice.

One problem we bump into when we read these

books, for example, is that somebody would ask

Bhagavan to describe a practice, and he did, and then

today we read this description and jump to the

conclusion that he was recommending it. This often is

not clear from the document itself; you almost need a

"Ph.D. in the History of the Ramana Literature" to figure

this out.

The document called "Self-Enquiry" is an extreme

example of this. From its title and the fact that

Bhagavan's byline is on it, anybody would think it's

the ultimate source for finding out what Self-enquiry

is. But it's not. He didn't write it, and it's not about Self-

enquiry, for the most part. A person needs an academic

knowledge of the history of these texts to be aware

of such problems.

Other times somebody would come and say, "I'm

doing this practice now. Should I continue?" and for

whatever reason Bhagavan didn't want to try to make

the person change, so he said, "Keep doing it." It's

easy to take such conversations out of context.

The only way to get a sense of what Bhagavan really

recommended, it seems to me, is to learn which

texts (because of their history) are more likely to be

reliable; read thousands of recorded conversations in

them; try to separate out the ones where he is clearly

making a recommendation (rather than confirming an

existing practice or commenting on practices), and see

if there is a pattern.

It's also necessary to keep track of the conversations in

which Bhagavan said, "No, this practice is not Self-

enquiry." (Whether it is Self-enquiry, and whether it

can be beneficial, are two different things. But one

point that he consistently asserted is that there are only

two paths that can lead to Realization, enquiry and

surrender, and of these paths, only enquiry is really a

method. So when he says that a practice is not enquiry,

what is he really saying? It's worth thinking this through.)

It may be the case that this is too much work for most

of us to do. It also requires a kind of academic

skill and patience that most people probably don't have.

But David is brilliant at this task, absolutely brilliant. The

more I try to read these books myself, the more I hold

David's ability and dedication to this task in awe.

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

Monday, December 09, 2002 4:32 PM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] discarding sheaths

> Dear Rob , thanks for that hint, I missed reading the intro .I must say David

always puts things

December 9, 2002

Dear Rob , i agree with your well expressed thesis .We can use the

discrimanative intellect in

this respect to look at Ramana's answers to questions and see their context .He

gave different

answers to different people at different times as he saw their need and then

took them to the

next step .His written answers are not dogmatisms .One must follow what

resonates with one's own

need at the time .We are often guided to read the right text when we need it

..However his own

written works are meant for all as a conswidered statement on his teachings ,

the 40 , 30 and 40

supp.[we have ,however , to be cautious about differing translations not

approved by him].The

Essay ' Self Enquiry 'was answers to a questioner , so must be looked at with

discrimination ,as

you point out.I agree with everything you say about David's books - he assists

those who are

earnest in the Quest greatly .I appreciate your clarity too . Love , in

Bhagacan , Alan .

--- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Dear Alan,

I agree completely. David is a treasure. It's as if

God sent him to us to compensate for making it so

difficult for us to figure out by reading books what

Bhagavan recommended for practice.

One problem we bump into when we read these

books, for example, is that somebody would ask

Bhagavan to describe a practice, and he did, and then

today we read this description and jump to the

conclusion that he was recommending it. This often is

not clear from the document itself; you almost need a

"Ph.D. in the History of the Ramana Literature" to figure

this out.

The document called "Self-Enquiry" is an extreme

example of this. From its title and the fact that

Bhagavan's byline is on it, anybody would think it's

the ultimate source for finding out what Self-enquiry

is. But it's not. He didn't write it, and it's not about

Self-

enquiry, for the most part. A person needs an academic

knowledge of the history of these texts to be aware

of such problems.

Other times somebody would come and say, "I'm

doing this practice now. Should I continue?" and for

whatever reason Bhagavan didn't want to try to make

the person change, so he said, "Keep doing it." It's

easy to take such conversations out of context.

The only way to get a sense of what Bhagavan really

recommended, it seems to me, is to learn which

texts (because of their history) are more likely to be

reliable; read thousands of recorded conversations in

them; try to separate out the ones where he is clearly

making a recommendation (rather than confirming an

existing practice or commenting on practices), and see

if there is a pattern.

It's also necessary to keep track of the conversations in

which Bhagavan said, "No, this practice is not Self-

enquiry." (Whether it is Self-enquiry, and whether it

can be beneficial, are two different things. But one

point that he consistently asserted is that there are only

two paths that can lead to Realization, enquiry and

surrender, and of these paths, only enquiry is really a

method. So when he says that a practice is not enquiry,

what is he really saying? It's worth thinking this through.)

It may be the case that this is too much work for most

of us to do. It also requires a kind of academic

skill and patience that most people probably don't have.

But David is brilliant at this task, absolutely brilliant. The

more I try to read these books myself, the more I hold

David's ability and dedication to this task in awe.

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs>

Monday, December 09, 2002 4:32 PM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] discarding sheaths

> Dear Rob , thanks for that hint, I missed reading the intro .I must say

David always puts

things

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December 9, 2002

Dear Alan,

I agree. While we're on this subject let me say

that I think you are absolutely right to keep

emphasizing II.2 from the Ramana Gita. It's

the essence of the teaching, a lodestone to

steer by as we try to make sense of the other

texts.

I notice you have it on the home page of the

Ramana Maharshi Foundation:

In the inmost core, the Heart

Shines as Brahman alone,

As 'I - I', the Self aware.

Enter deep into the Heart

By search for Self, or diving deep

Or with breath under check.

Thus abide ever in Atman.

(Ramana Gita II.2)

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs

Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:28 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] discarding sheaths

> Dear Rob , i agree with your well expressed thesis .We can use the

discrimanative intellect in

>

December 9, 2002

Dear Rob , yes , thanks .I'm glad you agree .We feel that it cuts through all

the various

points of view as to what might or might not constitute Self Enquiry - instead

one just attempts

to probe directly , beneath the skin , focussing attention inwardly into the

Heart as best one

can and try to find the Source of the "I Thought' .Perhaps it's too simple and

direct for some

..How our minds enjoy complexity ? This verse was repeated by Ramana not only in

the Ramana Gita

but the 40 Verses and the Supplement as well .It is his own composition prompted

by a question of

Ganapati Muni .It is called the Eka Sloka and there are commentarikers on it ,

such is its import

..I know you are aware of all this , but there may be other Sadhaks not as well

informed as your

goodself and would value the information .All love , in the' Joy of Self Enquiry

', Alan

--- Rob Sacks <editor wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Dear Alan,

I agree. While we're on this subject let me say

that I think you are absolutely right to keep

emphasizing II.2 from the Ramana Gita. It's

the essence of the teaching, a lodestone to

steer by as we try to make sense of the other

texts.

I notice you have it on the home page of the

Ramana Maharshi Foundation:

In the inmost core, the Heart

Shines as Brahman alone,

As 'I - I', the Self aware.

Enter deep into the Heart

By search for Self, or diving deep

Or with breath under check.

Thus abide ever in Atman.

&n\

bsp; &nbs\

p; \

(Ramana Gita II.2)

Rob

-

"Alan Jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs>

Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:28 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] discarding sheaths

> Dear Rob , i agree with your well expressed thesis .We can use the

discrimanative intellect

in

>

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