Practice..Attn, Sri Richard

[Guest guest]

Dear Richard:

See my replies below.

 

Sri Richard?

"You also talk about pain when meditating. I sometimes have this as well. I have

pretty much stopped meditating on the floor or a pillow because of knee pain.

And I have had back pain since the days of high school football. And some of my

best meditations were ones in which there was pain, but my attention was on

something much deeper than the pain, and it did not matter so much. Pain is not

the problem, rather it is giving pain the kind of attention that makes it more

real, it is attachment to and identification with the pain that is the

problem."

 

The Lowly Alton:

I too have had back pain from an injury when I was 18. It hurt tremendously for

a year until I read how to cure it by hanging by one's ankles. I did that along

with back hyperextensions and it got cured. Since then about 4 or five times it

went out where I could not move even one inch without excruciating pain. So now

we do Iyengar yoga along with back hyper extensions on our hyperextension

machine. See Jpegs.

We used to also hang with those inversion boots but since we don't have a back

swing we stopped it as being too dangerous at our age.

I find that sitting on the floor gives a more conscious meditation and a longer

one too boot. The ergonomic kneeling seat is good too.

 

In case you are wondering. I am not pampering the body. Everything I do is to enable meditations.

 

As Sri Gabriele posted: She is concentrating on sitting with a straight back. I

don't see how anyone can meditate without a strait back, as the pain will set

in much sooner.

When I am referring to the pain appearing, I mean when I sit for a long time

like over one hour. The knees or back starts to feel uncomfortable. That

happens with all mediators at some time during long meditations.

 

-

Sri Richard:

"I have a family to support and work, so have needs to also fit meditation and

inquiry within that context. Ramana taught that it is not needed to be a monk,

that inquiry makes not difference what ones `does.' (Thank goodness!)"

 

Alton: Yes when I used to have to work, I could only manage around 2 or 3 hours

per day and the most I worked was only 5 hours in later years. This gave time

to do the meditation and also much body maintenance that both of us need to

keep this body functioning.

 

Sri Richard:

I think it is beneficial not to be so concerned about progress (though my own

sense of progress makes it much easier to continue to keep the focus on

practice. I think keeping this focus is important. One of Sankara's famous

"Requisites for Realization" is "Desire for Liberation."). The one thing I

would say to your comment is that it may not be needed to spend all the time

sitting. What matters is whether one's focus is on "things" or the Self. What

matters is the inward turned mind. Keep it turned within and finally it will

come to the full Knowledge of the Self.

 

Alton:

I have generally given up my focus on making progress thanks to Miles and his

saintly cohorts, but I still believe that the Attention is just a muscle that

can be made more powerful by training, like building stronger biceps. So the

more time I can put in sitting meditation the stronger that Attention muscle

will get. This will eventually enable one to hold the Attention on the space

between the thoughts, which can be conceptualized as the primary object "I Am".

This primary object is the sine qua non of all other secondary and tertiary

objects that appear.

 

A new Indian member friend asked me to define what I meant by putting the Attention on the "I Am".

 

This is my view of it. Please Miles and the other members let me know if you

disagree or want to add anything to it.

 

The "I Am" is the primary object of Attention or the sense of conscious

presence. The fact of being that cannot be denied because the denying it is the

proof that it exists.

It exists even in deep sleep. The proof of it is, that when someone calls you,

you wake up. The exception is Sri Ramana who did not wake up. If this case the

exception still proves the rule. The deep sleep analogy does not seem true to

me. That is, one knows that one was present during sleep because one can

remember that one slept soundly. When I believe that I slept soundly, it is

only because I did not remember waking up during that time, not because I

actually can recall sleeping soundly. I think the Buddhist call that speck of

"I Am" during deep sleep Bavanga. Spelling might not be correct.

 

Some theorists say that when one is sleeping or unconscious, as during an

operation, everything that the senses encounter is recorded in consciousness.

If that is true than there is more proof that the "I Am" exists during deep

sleep.

 

 

It you are listening to a lecture and you mind wonders and you no longer know

what the lecturer is offering, that means that the Attention got distracted to

the thoughts that appeared in you mind. Similarly,when meditating on the "I Am"

you focus on the space between the thoughts. When the mind wonders to the

thoughts and you seem to loose that sense of presence, you just bring it back

to the space between the thoughts. Advanced seekers may be able to hold the "I

Am" and still have discursive thoughts, but I don't seem to be able to do it

except as an afterthought.

 

I recall Nisargadatta having said that abiding in the "I Am" is just sensing. I

take that to mean that until the Attention eats up the Attention and you are

able to not have thoughts, you will get sensations; when focusing on the "I

Am".

When the Attention eats up the Attention you then have an explosion or Self Realization.

 

If you put the same object in the same time and space it will explode. Please

the two Scientists here, Sri Miles and Sir Shengping, is that true?

 

I presume that Vichara is similar.

 

Love,

Alton the "trouble maker' as Sri Richard aptly put it. LOL.

 

 

 

Attachment: (image/jpeg) GRAVITY BOOTS.jpg [not stored]

Attachment: (image/gif) ERGO KNELING SEAT.gif [not stored]

Attachment: (image/jpeg) ROMAN CHAIR.jpg [not stored]

[Guest guest]

"If you put the same object in the same time and space it will explode. Please

the two Scientists here, Sri Miles and Sir Shengping, is that true?"

 

Correction: I ment Sri Suri in place of Sri Miles. No sleep makes me spaced.

Aloha,

Alton

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Richard wrote:

BTW, I am glad you are amused by the "troublemaker" appellation. You know that I

mean it only with the greatest love. After reading your words for some time, I

suspect that the one for whom you create the most trouble is probably Alton.

 

Alton: Ha Ha Ha Ha. You may have a better sense of humor than I think I have.

 

Aloha,

Alton

[Guest guest]

Dear Alton,

 

A few comments.

 

Certainly I agree that "Attention is just a muscle" and that we can

improve our ability to focus the attention on more and more subtle

experiences. Sure seems to me that this is a big component of

practice, at least to begin with.

 

Now what does it mean to put attention on the "I am?" That is a good

question. For me this has involved many different things over the

time of my inquiry practice. AS you know, when I start each

meditation period, I start with noticing that I exist. This starts me

with two different ways to go. One is to notice the sense of "I" and

attend to that (and let it take me where ever it goes. The other is

to attend to the experience of "Exist" and similarly follow this. I

have also found that following the sense of awareness, of

consciousness, of knowing, takes me to the same place. This has been

most useful in my discrimination. This (whatever objective `thing'

or subtle thought) is known. Who knows this? Yet one more way to

find the "I am" is to follow the sense of reality. "This seems real.

Where does the sense of reality come from? I have found this most

useful looking at the dream state and using the dream state to

support my discrimination and inquiry.

 

In the last months, following the consciousness has often taken me

deeper into the inquiry.

 

There is a place were clearly the consciousness merges with the

existence and the "I am."

 

BTW, I am glad you are amused by the "troublemaker" appellation. You

know that I mean it only with the greatest love. After reading your

words for some time, I suspect that the one for whom you create the

most trouble is probably Alton.

 

W3 are not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "UNBOUND" <unbound@h...> wrote:

> Alton:

> I have generally given up my focus on making progress thanks to

Miles and his saintly cohorts, but I still believe that the Attention

is just a muscle that can be made more powerful by training, like

building stronger biceps. So the more time I can put in sitting

meditation the stronger that Attention muscle will get. This will

eventually enable one to hold the Attention on the space between the

thoughts, which can be conceptualized as the primary object "I Am".

This primary object is the sine qua non of all other secondary and

tertiary objects that appear.

>

> A new Indian member friend asked me to define what I meant by

putting the Attention on the "I Am".

>

> This is my view of it. Please Miles and the other members let me

know if you disagree or want to add anything to it.

>

> The "I Am" is the primary object of Attention or the sense of

conscious presence. The fact of being that cannot be denied because

the denying it is the proof that it exists.

> It exists even in deep sleep. The proof of it is, that when someone

calls you, you wake up. The exception is Sri Ramana who did not wake

up. If this case the exception still proves the rule. The deep sleep

analogy does not seem true to me. That is, one knows that one was

present during sleep because one can remember that one slept soundly.

When I believe that I slept soundly, it is only because I did not

remember waking up during that time, not because I actually can

recall sleeping soundly. I think the Buddhist call that speck of "I

Am" during deep sleep Bavanga. Spelling might not be correct.

>

> Some theorists say that when one is sleeping or unconscious, as

during an operation, everything that the senses encounter is recorded

in consciousness. If that is true than there is more proof that

the "I Am" exists during deep sleep.

>

>

> It you are listening to a lecture and you mind wonders and you no

longer know what the lecturer is offering, that means that the

Attention got distracted to the thoughts that appeared in you mind.

Similarly,when meditating on the "I Am" you focus on the space

between the thoughts. When the mind wonders to the thoughts and you

seem to loose that sense of presence, you just bring it back to the

space between the thoughts. Advanced seekers may be able to hold

the "I Am" and still have discursive thoughts, but I don't seem to be

able to do it except as an afterthought.

>

> I recall Nisargadatta having said that abiding in the "I Am" is

just sensing. I take that to mean that until the Attention eats up

the Attention and you are able to not have thoughts, you will get

sensations; when focusing on the "I Am".

> When the Attention eats up the Attention you then have an explosion

or Self Realization.

>

> If you put the same object in the same time and space it will

explode. Please the two Scientists here, Sri Miles and Sir Shengping,

is that true?

>

> I presume that Vichara is similar.

>

> Love,

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Alton,

 

I am glad you can laugh. That is good. Laughter is just the mind

letting go of a preconception.

 

Though Self-realization is the most important focus of satsang, there

is humor and laughter in most satsangs at SAT.

 

Mostly I do not use humor in this newsgroup because of the importance

of the spiritual efforts of the seekers who frequent these groups.

Humor over the internet is often mis-interpreted.

 

I felt that you would understand and react appropriately. I am glad

that you have.

 

(A real risk for a seeker is to take themselves too seriously. Why

should we do this? After all, we are just our oun [bad] idea.)

 

We are not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "UNBOUND" <unbound@h...> wrote:

> Dear Sri Richard wrote:

> BTW, I am glad you are amused by the "troublemaker" appellation.

You

> know that I mean it only with the greatest love. After reading

your

> words for some time, I suspect that the one for whom you create the

> most trouble is probably Alton.

>

> Alton: Ha Ha Ha Ha. You may have a better sense of humor than I

think I have.

>

> Aloha,

> Alton

[Guest guest]

We are just our own [bad] idea

Of all those concepts lets be clear

Form is emptiness when we know

That all perceptions are just for show

Lets just ask to practice deeply

Until the SELF is known completely

 

First line supplied by Sri Richard

 

My wife likes another last two lines she supplied

 

We are just our own [bad] idea

Of all those concepts lets be clear

Form is emptiness when we know

That all perceptions are just for show

So when we sit and practice deeply

Let us see the glass completely

 

 

 

-

Richard Clarke

RamanaMaharshi

Friday, March 07, 2003 6:24 AM

[RamanaMaharshi] Re: Practice..Attn, Sri Richard

Dear Sri Alton,I am glad you can laugh. That is good. Laughter is just the mind

letting go of a preconception. Though Self-realization is the most important

focus of satsang, there is humor and laughter in most satsangs at SAT.Mostly I

do not use humor in this newsgroup because of the importance of the spiritual

efforts of the seekers who frequent these groups. Humor over the internet is

often mis-interpreted.I felt that you would understand and react appropriately.

I am glad that you have.(A real risk for a seeker is to take themselves too

seriously. Why should we do this? After all, we are just our oun [bad] idea.)We

are not two,RichardRamanaMaharshi, "UNBOUND"

<unbound@h...> wrote:> Dear Sri Richard wrote:> BTW, I am glad you are amused

by the "troublemaker" appellation. You > know that I mean it only with the

greatest love. After reading your > words for some time, I suspect that the

one for whom you create the > most trouble is probably Alton. > > Alton: Ha Ha

Ha Ha. You may have a better sense of humor than I think I have.> > Aloha,>

Alton Post message: RamanaMaharshi

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