Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Friends on the Way, There is one thing I really do not understand about certain teachers at the moment. Please understand it is in no way a form of criticism but just a question and I hope someone can clear my doubts. I am trying to be honest about it, so please understand. Here it is. Let's say I am "fully awakened" or I am "realized". Why would I put up a website and write "I am fully awakened" or I am "realized" belonging to this or that "lineage" on it? Why would I quit my job and just travel around making money giving satsang all the time? You know, it is big business at the moment. I never go to such meetings, so maybe I am missing the point altogether here? Did Sri Ramana ask money for satsang/darshan? Did he make any claims of being this or that? Yes I am comparing now, but if you claim to be of his lineage, why not conform to his "standards" or follow his example? I am aware this is a tricky question but it's better to get it of my chest. Although the last thing I wish is to offend anyone in any way. Also I wrote e-mails containing the same question to several teachers but I never got any replies. Warmest regards, Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 ---Dear Ashtavakra , some thoughts .Both the late Robert Adams and Ramesh Balsekar[both devotees of Ramana Maharshi] say that anyone who claims to be Self Realised is not , by definition . Because it is a contradiction in terms .The I which says I am awakened etc. is the I which has to go in order for awakening to take place .Ramana and other acknowledged Sages never claimed to be Self Realised .It was recognised by others that they were living from the Self and hence gathered around them as their devotees.Many of the modern Western Advaita teachers have lost the sense of the 'me'but their vasanas are still active .Ramana said {Letters]that it is possible to have an awakening with vasanas active .This however is a preliminary stage and the full awakening is when the vasanas are burnt out .The Sage lives from Pure Consciousness .Because of the vasanas still being active these teachers are still living from reflected Consciousness {See Ramana's Essay Self Enquiry [18] for diagram in Collected Works ].Because of the demand by seekers to have questions answered by the best of these often gifted communicators they are popular and are able to earn a livelihood by being travelling teachers .Very few put any emphasis on Self Enquiry and the supporting spiritual practices, and mainly teach Surrender by other terms ..Ramana never asked for any money ever .Donations did come spontaneously to the Ashram Management ..The modern Teachers do have a place however as they give people the main Advaita concepts , and this may lead them to Ramana in due course .Ramana taught by Silence , as well as answering questions , and written teachings .It is historically very rare to have a Sage who can teach by silence ..Warmest regards , in Him , Alan > > There is one thing I really do not understand about certain teachers at the moment. Please > understand it is in no way a form of criticism but just a question and I hope someone can clear > my doubts. I am trying to be honest about it, so please understand. > Here it is. Let's say I am "fully awakened" or I am "realized". Why would I put up a website > and write "I am fully awakened" or I am "realized" belonging to this or that "lineage" on it? > Why would I quit my job and just travel around making money giving satsang all the time? You > know, it is big business at the moment. I never go to such meetings, so maybe I am missing the > point altogether here? > Did Sri Ramana ask money for satsang/darshan? Did he make any claims of being this or that? Yes > I am comparing now, but if you claim to be of his lineage, why not conform to his "standards" or > follow his example? > I am aware this is a tricky question but it's better to get it of my chest. Although the last > thing I wish is to offend anyone in any way. > > Also I wrote e-mails containing the same question to several teachers but I never got any > replies. > > > Warmest regards, > > Ben. > Plus For a better Internet experience http://www..co.uk/btoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 --- ashtavakra <ashta wrote: > Dear Alan, > > Thank you for your answer Alan! > Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in other words, how can such a > one have the authority to teach? Some are self appointed with no authority other than their own word , and others are given permission by their own teacher . H.L.Poondaji , a Ramana Disciple , gave many permissions to his pupil-devotees. I think of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a > "geometrical representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this imprint to advance > to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not to teach others, or did I misunderstand? I agree - but many have a tendency {vasana] or a desire to teach with the very best intentions.Some are very able communicators , and delightful people .One hopes they are practicing Atma Vichara to end their vasanas ,as you suggest , but this is not at all certain . > And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and ego? And how does this > relate to the annihilation of ego? Vasanas are mental tendencies and habits .Even if the sense of 'me'as a separate identity is lost these can continue until annihilated through Atma Vichara .This would distinguish the teacher from the Sage . > All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not confusing you and the other > friends here. not yet . > As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only the "imprint" stays. It is > very hard to proceed from there, because one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I > know". you are probably right . > Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks. Yes , it would be useful to get a clear view of this question ,objectively , without seeming judgemental . > > Yours in Guru Ramana,reciprocated , > > Alan > > > > > - > Alan Jacobs > RamanaMaharshi > Saturday, April 12, 2003 9:35 PM > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] tricky question > > > ---Dear Ashtavakra , some thoughts .Both the late Robert Adams and Ramesh Balsekar[both > devotees > of Ramana Maharshi] say that anyone who claims to be Self Realised is not , by definition > . > Because it is a contradiction in terms .The I which says I am awakened etc. is the I which has > to > go in order for awakening to take place .Ramana and other acknowledged Sages never claimed to > be > Self Realised .It was recognised by others that they were living from the Self and hence > gathered > around them as their devotees.Many of the modern Western Advaita teachers have lost the sense > of > the 'me'but their vasanas are still active .Ramana said {Letters]that it is possible to have > an > awakening with vasanas active .This however is a preliminary stage and the full awakening is > when the vasanas are burnt out .The Sage lives from Pure Consciousness ..Because of the vasanas > still being active these teachers are still living from reflected Consciousness {See Ramana's > Essay Self Enquiry [18] for diagram in Collected Works ].Because of the demand by seekers to > have > questions answered by the best of these often gifted communicators they are popular and are > able > to earn a livelihood by being travelling teachers .Very few put any emphasis on Self Enquiry > and > the supporting spiritual practices, and mainly teach Surrender by other terms .Ramana never > asked > for any money ever .Donations did come spontaneously to the Ashram Management .The modern > Teachers > do have a place however as they give people the main Advaita concepts , and this may lead > them > to Ramana in due course .Ramana taught by Silence , as well as answering questions , and > written > teachings .It is historically very rare to have a Sage who can teach by silence .Warmest > regards , > in Him , Alan > > > > > > > There is one thing I really do not understand about certain teachers at the moment. Please > > understand it is in no way a form of criticism but just a question and I hope someone can > clear > > my doubts. I am trying to be honest about it, so please understand. > > Here it is. Let's say I am "fully awakened" or I am "realized". Why would I put up a website > > > and write "I am fully awakened" or I am "realized" belonging to this or that "lineage" on > it? > > Why would I quit my job and just travel around making money giving satsang all the time? You > > know, it is big business at the moment. I never go to such meetings, so maybe I am missing > the > > point altogether here? > > Did Sri Ramana ask money for satsang/darshan? Did he make any claims of being this or that? > Yes > > I am comparing now, but if you claim to be of his lineage, why not conform to his > "standards" or > > follow his example? > > I am aware this is a tricky question but it's better to get it of my chest. Although the > last > > thing I wish is to offend anyone in any way. > > > > Also I wrote e-mails containing the same question to several teachers but I never got any > > replies. > > > > > > Warmest regards, > > > > Ben. > > > > > Plus > For a better Internet experience > http://www..co.uk/btoffer > > Sponsor > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > Plus For a better Internet experience http://www..co.uk/btoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 We have made ourselves so weak; we have made ourselvesso low. We may make great claims, but naturally wewant to lean on somebody else. We are like little,weak plants, always wanting a support. How many timesI have been asked for a "comfortable religion!" Veryfew men ask for the truth, fewer still dare to learnthe truth, and fewest of all dare to follow it in allits practical bearings. ~ Swami Vivekananda - Alan Jacobs RamanaMaharshi Saturday, April 12, 2003 10:59 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] tricky question --- ashtavakra <ashta (AT) xs4all (DOT) nl> wrote: > Dear Alan,> > Thank you for your answer Alan!> Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in other words, how can such a> one have the authority to teach?Some are self appointed with no authority other than their own word , and others are givenpermission by their own teacher .H.L.Poondaji , a Ramana Disciple , gave many permissions to his pupil-devotees.I think of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a> "geometrical representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this imprint to advance> to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not to teach others, or did I misunderstand?I agree - but many have a tendency {vasana] or a desire to teach with the very bestintentions.Some are very able communicators , and delightful people .One hopes they are practicingAtma Vichara to end their vasanas ,as you suggest , but this is not at all certain .> And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and ego? And how does this> relate to the annihilation of ego?Vasanas are mental tendencies and habits .Even if the sense of 'me'as a separate identity islost these can continue until annihilated through Atma Vichara .This would distinguish the teacherfrom the Sage .> All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not confusing you and the other> friends here.not yet ..> As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only the "imprint" stays. It is> very hard to proceed from there, because one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I> know".you are probably right .> Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks.Yes , it would be useful to get a clear view of this question ,objectively , without seemingjudgemental .>> Yours in Guru Ramana,reciprocated ,> > Alan> > > > > - > Alan Jacobs > To: RamanaMaharshi > Saturday, April 12, 2003 9:35 PM> Re: [RamanaMaharshi] tricky question> > > ---Dear Ashtavakra , some thoughts .Both the late Robert Adams and Ramesh Balsekar[both> devotees> of Ramana Maharshi] say that anyone who claims to be Self Realised is not , by definition > .> Because it is a contradiction in terms .The I which says I am awakened etc. is the I which has> to> go in order for awakening to take place .Ramana and other acknowledged Sages never claimed to> be> Self Realised .It was recognised by others that they were living from the Self and hence> gathered> around them as their devotees.Many of the modern Western Advaita teachers have lost the sense> of> the 'me'but their vasanas are still active .Ramana said {Letters]that it is possible to have> an> awakening with vasanas active .This however is a preliminary stage and the full awakening is> when the vasanas are burnt out .The Sage lives from Pure Consciousness ..Because of the vasanas> still being active these teachers are still living from reflected Consciousness {See Ramana's> Essay Self Enquiry [18] for diagram in Collected Works ].Because of the demand by seekers to> have> questions answered by the best of these often gifted communicators they are popular and are> able> to earn a livelihood by being travelling teachers ..Very few put any emphasis on Self Enquiry> and> the supporting spiritual practices, and mainly teach Surrender by other terms .Ramana never> asked> for any money ever .Donations did come spontaneously to the Ashram Management ..The modern> Teachers> do have a place however as they give people the main Advaita concepts , and this may lead> them> to Ramana in due course .Ramana taught by Silence , as well as answering questions , and> written> teachings ..It is historically very rare to have a Sage who can teach by silence .Warmest> regards ,> in Him , Alan > > > > > > > There is one thing I really do not understand about certain teachers at the moment. Please> > understand it is in no way a form of criticism but just a question and I hope someone can> clear> > my doubts. I am trying to be honest about it, so please understand.> > Here it is. Let's say I am "fully awakened" or I am "realized". Why would I put up a website> > > and write "I am fully awakened" or I am "realized" belonging to this or that "lineage" on> it?> > Why would I quit my job and just travel around making money giving satsang all the time? You> > know, it is big business at the moment. I never go to such meetings, so maybe I am missing> the> > point altogether here?> > Did Sri Ramana ask money for satsang/darshan? Did he make any claims of being this or that?> Yes> > I am comparing now, but if you claim to be of his lineage, why not conform to his> "standards" or> > follow his example?> > I am aware this is a tricky question but it's better to get it of my chest. Although the> last> > thing I wish is to offend anyone in any way.> > > > Also I wrote e-mails containing the same question to several teachers but I never got any> > replies.> > > > > > Warmest regards,> > > > Ben.> > > > > Plus> For a better Internet experience> http://www..co.uk/btoffer>'>http://www..co.uk/btoffer> > Groups Sponsor > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-> Un: RamanaMaharshi> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner> > Shortcut URL to this page:> http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Your use of Groups is subject to the > > PlusFor a better Internet experiencehttp://www..co.uk/btoffer Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Dear Ben, A couple of comments if I may. I speak from no particular authority, just what I think I have learned from about 35 years of spiritual interest and practice (until about 12 years ago the spiritual practice was mainly done on my own, without a teacher, other than books and my own comtemplation and meditation). The last 12 with a teacher, who teaches from a very high stand. If what I say offends any one, this is surely not my intent. Here I go again, trying to share what I think I know. But sharing as a fellow seeker, who knows that there is still much ignorance remaining in this one. So if there are errors or offence to anyone, I am sorry. >From what I have seen there are, perhaps, several `sets' of spiritual teachers, as Alan has written about. I suspect that most truly want to support other seekers, and they teach from the point of view of either their highest insight or experience, or from their permanent stand. Best, I think, are those teachers who teach from their parmant stand. There are some (never many at one time all of the spritual history I know of) who stand as Reality, without a trace of ego, as their permant, continuous stand. Certainly Ramana was such a one. This is what Ramana described as "Sahaja or Sahaja Samadhi." Ramana also identifes Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa Samadhi. I suspect that you will find teachers for whom one of these represents their higest state. If they are not teaching from any of these, then they are just teaching from the understanding, not their experience. I went to EST many years ago, EST had a saying, "Understanding is the booby prize." I would not want a teacher who spoke not at all from their own experience. My understanding of Savikalpa Samadhi is that here the meditator does not lose such distinctions as the knower, knowledge and the known. The stand is still as "this person," though with the Self seen as the real nature. Nirvikalpa Samadhi can be described as free from all thoughts of distinctions, free of differentiations as the known, knowledge and knower. Ramana refers to Nirvikalpa Samadhi as blissful but not permanent. He uses the metaphor of "a bucket lowered into a well." The bucket (vasanas) still exist to draw it out of the well again. Sahaja signifies what is effortless, natural and innate. It is the state of Being the Self and the Self alone. >From my perspective, I feel like I (we, the community of seekers, the sangha) are going into what is unknown (the search for our Real Existence). With such as one speaking from Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa Samadhi we can learn much about how to start our journey into Self. One like Ramana provides a direct pointing to Self. This is the difference in teachers. One who stands as Self can point directly past mind, past ego, into Being-Consciousness-Bliss. One who stands as Self is also, I think, living encouragement to the seeker, saying, "This is for you too. It is easy. It is Who You Are. It is closer than your own thought." As a seeker, I still come from the point of view of "this person," (so I see myself as a mostly Savikalpa, a little Nirvikalpa kind of guy) so I know that I do not speak from any real depth. Yet I still am drawn to share, so I do things like write and post "Freeway Zen" to share what I am learning about how to approach practice. I would never think of myself as a "teacher." The teacher to be desired is one standing as Self, as Being. I have great reverance for Teachers. I suspect that the more a teacher "promotes" himself or herself as a teacher, as Self-realized, then the less this is true. I sometimes wonder at these books and web pages that feature big pictures of the Guru, and tell personal stories about one who is said no longer to be an individual. Maybe this is useful, maybe not. We are not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > Dear Alan, > > Thank you for your answer Alan! > Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in other words, how can such a one have the authority to teach? I think of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a "geometrical representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this imprint to advance to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not to teach others, or did I misunderstand? > And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and ego? And how does this relate to the annihilation of ego? > All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not confusing you and the other friends here. > As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only the "imprint" stays. It is very hard to proceed from there, because one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I know". > Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks. > I am very happy you took it as I hope you would, just a question to discover. > > Yours in Guru Ramana, > > Ben. > > > Plus > For a better Internet experience > http://www..co.uk/btoffer > > Sponsor > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Have reverance for yourSelf not for teachers. What about savikalpa,nirvikalpa and what not? Just give me some more of that Freeway Zen! In reverance for who you are, as you are, a Friend on the Way, Ben. "As a seeker, I still come from the point of view of "this person," (so I see myself as a mostly Savikalpa, a little Nirvikalpa kind of guy) so I know that I do not speak from any real depth. Yet I still am drawn to share, so I do things like write and post "Freeway Zen" to share what I am learning about how to approach practice. I would never think of myself as a "teacher." The teacher to be desired is one standing as Self, as Being. I have great reverance for Teachers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 Hello Michael, I am not sure, but I think Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said a true/good(?) disciple is hard to get for all want to be teachers. Hello Rubyray, thank you for the quote, very enlightening. It shows very clearly "I" has to dissolve completely. One starts to think it is very rare to find someone like that. Also you cleared a doubt: I call the state of no-mind a "blank state" for lack of a better word. I am rather clumsy with words and find it hard to put my experience (read: struggles) in the advaitic/theoretical framework. I think no-mind is the blank state I mentioned earlier. Something is still missing there and that is exactly what Mr. Adams says very clear in the quote. You/Robert Adams answered a question I posted earlier in atma-vichara group. I think it is very important. Also I tried to go to site of Robert Adams but it is unavailable. Anyway will see if I can get a copy of the book. Thank you, Ben. A quote from Robert Adams on no-mind and self-realization--- "The no-mind state is where you come from practicing to the place in the Silence where there are no thoughts to bother you any longer. You get there through Self-inquiry. That's the fastest way. But that's not Self-realization. Self-realization is when the mind is pulled into the spiritual Heart. Liberation, moksha, Self-realization is when the mind that's left over in the Silence is pulled completely into the spiritual Heart. At that time the whole mind, the I, dissolves completely and you are free." From "Silence of the Heart, by Robert Adams, p. 54 - Michael Bowes RamanaMaharshi Sunday, April 13, 2003 1:44 AM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] tricky question Dear Friends,Who is the teacher? EveryONE.Who is the Guru? EveryONE.But who is the disciple?regards,michaelDo you ? Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and morehttp://tax. Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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