Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Dear Alan, Thank you for your answer Alan! Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in other words, how can such a one have the authority to teach? I think of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a "geometrical representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this imprint to advance to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not to teach others, or did I misunderstand? And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and ego? And how does this relate to the annihilation of ego? All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not confusing you and the other friends here. As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only the "imprint" stays. It is very hard to proceed from there, because one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I know". Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks. I am very happy you took it as I hope you would, just a question to discover. Yours in Guru Ramana, Ben. - Alan Jacobs RamanaMaharshi Saturday, April 12, 2003 9:35 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] tricky question ---Dear Ashtavakra , some thoughts .Both the late Robert Adams and Ramesh Balsekar[both devoteesof Ramana Maharshi] say that anyone who claims to be Self Realised is not , by definition .Because it is a contradiction in terms .The I which says I am awakened etc. is the I which has togo in order for awakening to take place .Ramana and other acknowledged Sages never claimed to beSelf Realised .It was recognised by others that they were living from the Self and hence gatheredaround them as their devotees.Many of the modern Western Advaita teachers have lost the sense ofthe 'me'but their vasanas are still active ..Ramana said {Letters]that it is possible to have anawakening with vasanas active .This however is a preliminary stage and the full awakening iswhen the vasanas are burnt out .The Sage lives from Pure Consciousness .Because of the vasanasstill being active these teachers are still living from reflected Consciousness {See Ramana'sEssay Self Enquiry [18] for diagram in Collected Works ].Because of the demand by seekers to havequestions answered by the best of these often gifted communicators they are popular and are ableto earn a livelihood by being travelling teachers .Very few put any emphasis on Self Enquiry andthe supporting spiritual practices, and mainly teach Surrender by other terms .Ramana never askedfor any money ever .Donations did come spontaneously to the Ashram Management .The modern Teachersdo have a place however as they give people the main Advaita concepts , and this may lead themto Ramana in due course .Ramana taught by Silence , as well as answering questions , and writtenteachings .It is historically very rare to have a Sage who can teach by silence .Warmest regards ,in Him , Alan > > There is one thing I really do not understand about certain teachers at the moment. Please> understand it is in no way a form of criticism but just a question and I hope someone can clear> my doubts. I am trying to be honest about it, so please understand.> Here it is. Let's say I am "fully awakened" or I am "realized". Why would I put up a website > and write "I am fully awakened" or I am "realized" belonging to this or that "lineage" on it?> Why would I quit my job and just travel around making money giving satsang all the time? You> know, it is big business at the moment. I never go to such meetings, so maybe I am missing the> point altogether here?> Did Sri Ramana ask money for satsang/darshan? Did he make any claims of being this or that? Yes> I am comparing now, but if you claim to be of his lineage, why not conform to his "standards" or> follow his example?> I am aware this is a tricky question but it's better to get it of my chest. Although the last> thing I wish is to offend anyone in any way.> > Also I wrote e-mails containing the same question to several teachers but I never got any> replies.> > > Warmest regards,> > Ben.> PlusFor a better Internet experiencehttp://www..co.uk/btoffer Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Dear Ben, More Freeway Zen is coming, only a few more pages to go. Then I will post the whole doc in the file section. Glad you find it to be of some interest and hopefully some use. Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > > Have reverance for yourSelf not for teachers. What about savikalpa,nirvikalpa and what not? > > Just give me some more of that Freeway Zen! > > In reverance for who you are, as you are, > > a Friend on the Way, > > Ben. > > > > "As a seeker, I still come from the point of view of "this person," > (so I see myself as a mostly Savikalpa, a little Nirvikalpa kind of > guy) so I know that I do not speak from any real depth. Yet I still > am drawn to share, so I do things like write and post "Freeway Zen" > to share what I am learning about how to approach practice. I would > never think of myself as a "teacher." The teacher to be desired is > one standing as Self, as Being. I have great reverance for Teachers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Dear Friends, Who is the teacher? EveryONE. Who is the Guru? EveryONE. But who is the disciple? regards, michael Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 "If you see a teacher who thinks they are better than anybody else and they seem egotistical, be careful! Most Jnanis NEVER take on a teaching role at all, and they have very little to say. After all, what is there to talk about?" Silence of the Heart, Robert Adams, p. 130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 Richard wrote: <From what I have seen there are, perhaps, several `sets' of spiritual teachers, as Alan has written about. I suspect that most truly want to support other seekers, and they teach from the point of view of either their highest insight or experience, or from their permanent stand.> Yes, support other seekers and themselves. I know now from your post and Alans post there are teachers and sages, which is another thing altogether Best, I think, are those teachers who teach from their parmant stand. There are some (never many at one time all of the spritual history I know of) who stand as Reality, without a trace of ego, as their permant, continuous stand. Certainly Ramana was such a one. This is what Ramana described as "Sahaja or Sahaja Samadhi."> Yes Richard. And the claim is made all too often of being in that state with ego funcioning in all it's glory. One has to be carefull as not to be judgemental, but what has to be said has to be said. It confused me and thanks to the posts my own intuitions are confirmed. Now I can continue my atma-vichara. Thank you. Warmest regards, Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 <They will not ask for anything or claim any specialness> I will remember this. Maybe when the heart and mind are pure enough such a one will appear. Thank you Linda! - Linda Sherman RamanaMaharshi Saturday, April 12, 2003 9:11 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] tricky question Ben, If you are in the presence, visible or invisible, of a Self-realized being, and if you are tuned into to your heart, you will feel the powerful peace and grace of their presence, your mind will be silenced, humbled and you will feel tremendous respect. Gentleness, pure compassion, and light shines from their eyes. There will be no question as the experience is direct and unmistakable. Their heart is boundless, so you will feel that you have entered the space of a great heart. Your heart may resonate "I" - "I". They will not ask for anything or claim any specialness. They only give, but there is no sense of giving. The love and radiance in them is just overflowing. There's no one left, as a person. An impersonal, boundless love and light shine wherever their gaze falls. You cannot go to find them. They will appear, when your heart and mind are pure enough. Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 Hi Ruby Ray, I had a couple of good laughs, description of satsang with the late Robert Adams made me do so :-) I am listening to Willie Nelson now! here is the link: /MagazineV2/Kheyala.htm Thank you, Ben. - rubyray RamanaMaharshi Sunday, April 13, 2003 8:14 AM [RamanaMaharshi] Tricky Question "If you see a teacher who thinks they are better than anybody else and they seem egotistical, be careful! Most Jnanis NEVER take on a teaching role at all, and they have very little to say. After all, what is there to talk about?" Silence of the Heart, Robert Adams, p. 130 Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 hello, talking about teachers, I was looking for Nome and thought they are at http://www.satramana.org, did I remember wrong? what happend? awareness-peace-love, Karta thanks for any info "Richard Clarke" <rclarke@s...> wrote: > Dear Ben, > > A couple of comments if I may. I speak from no particular authority, > just what I think I have learned from about 35 years of spiritual > interest and practice (until about 12 years ago the spiritual > practice was mainly done on my own, without a teacher, other than > books and my own comtemplation and meditation). The last 12 with a > teacher, who teaches from a very high stand. > > If what I say offends any one, this is surely not my intent. Here I > go again, trying to share what I think I know. But sharing as a > fellow seeker, who knows that there is still much ignorance remaining > in this one. So if there are errors or offence to anyone, I am sorry. > > From what I have seen there are, perhaps, several `sets' of spiritual > teachers, as Alan has written about. I suspect that most truly want > to support other seekers, and they teach from the point of view of > either their highest insight or experience, or from their permanent > stand. Best, I think, are those teachers who teach from their parmant > stand. > > There are some (never many at one time all of the spritual history I > know of) who stand as Reality, without a trace of ego, as their > permant, continuous stand. Certainly Ramana was such a one. This is > what Ramana described as "Sahaja or Sahaja Samadhi." > > Ramana also identifes Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa Samadhi. I suspect > that you will find teachers for whom one of these represents their > higest state. If they are not teaching from any of these, then they > are just teaching from the understanding, not their experience. I > went to EST many years ago, EST had a saying, "Understanding is the > booby prize." I would not want a teacher who spoke not at all from > their own experience. > > My understanding of Savikalpa Samadhi is that here the meditator does > not lose such distinctions as the knower, knowledge and the known. > The stand is still as "this person," though with the Self seen as the > real nature. > > Nirvikalpa Samadhi can be described as free from all thoughts of > distinctions, free of differentiations as the known, knowledge and > knower. Ramana refers to Nirvikalpa Samadhi as blissful but not > permanent. He uses the metaphor of "a bucket lowered into a well." > The bucket (vasanas) still exist to draw it out of the well again. > > Sahaja signifies what is effortless, natural and innate. It is the > state of Being the Self and the Self alone. > > From my perspective, I feel like I (we, the community of seekers, the > sangha) are going into what is unknown (the search for our Real > Existence). With such as one speaking from Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa > Samadhi we can learn much about how to start our journey into Self. > One like Ramana provides a direct pointing to Self. This is the > difference in teachers. One who stands as Self can point directly > past mind, past ego, into Being-Consciousness-Bliss. One who stands > as Self is also, I think, living encouragement to the seeker, > saying, "This is for you too. It is easy. It is Who You Are. It is > closer than your own thought." > > As a seeker, I still come from the point of view of "this person," > (so I see myself as a mostly Savikalpa, a little Nirvikalpa kind of > guy) so I know that I do not speak from any real depth. Yet I still > am drawn to share, so I do things like write and post "Freeway Zen" > to share what I am learning about how to approach practice. I would > never think of myself as a "teacher." The teacher to be desired is > one standing as Self, as Being. I have great reverance for Teachers. > > I suspect that the more a teacher "promotes" himself or herself as a > teacher, as Self-realized, then the less this is true. I sometimes > wonder at these books and web pages that feature big pictures of the > Guru, and tell personal stories about one who is said no longer to be > an individual. > > Maybe this is useful, maybe not. > > We are not two, > Richard > > RamanaMaharshi, "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > > Dear Alan, > > > > Thank you for your answer Alan! > > Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in > other words, how can such a one have the authority to teach? I think > of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a "geometrical > representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this > imprint to advance to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not > to teach others, or did I misunderstand? > > And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and > ego? And how does this relate to the annihilation of ego? > > All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not > confusing you and the other friends here. > > As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only > the "imprint" stays. It is very hard to proceed from there, because > one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I know". > > Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks. > > I am very happy you took it as I hope you would, just a question to > discover. > > > > Yours in Guru Ramana, > > > > Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 satkartar5 the <,> in the url is the problem, regards, Ben. - satkartar5 RamanaMaharshi Sunday, April 13, 2003 9:11 PM [RamanaMaharshi] Re: tricky question hello,talking about teachers, I was lookingfor Nome and thought they are at http://www.satramana.org, did I remember wrong? what happend? awareness-peace-love, Kartathanks for any info"Richard Clarke" <rclarke@s...> wrote:> Dear Ben,> > A couple of comments if I may. I speak from no particular authority, > just what I think I have learned from about 35 years of spiritual > interest and practice (until about 12 years ago the spiritual > practice was mainly done on my own, without a teacher, other than > books and my own comtemplation and meditation). The last 12 with a > teacher, who teaches from a very high stand. > > If what I say offends any one, this is surely not my intent. Here I > go again, trying to share what I think I know. But sharing as a > fellow seeker, who knows that there is still much ignorance remaining > in this one. So if there are errors or offence to anyone, I am sorry.> > From what I have seen there are, perhaps, several `sets' of spiritual > teachers, as Alan has written about. I suspect that most truly want > to support other seekers, and they teach from the point of view of > either their highest insight or experience, or from their permanent > stand. Best, I think, are those teachers who teach from their parmant > stand. > > There are some (never many at one time all of the spritual history I > know of) who stand as Reality, without a trace of ego, as their > permant, continuous stand. Certainly Ramana was such a one. This is > what Ramana described as "Sahaja or Sahaja Samadhi."> > Ramana also identifes Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa Samadhi. I suspect > that you will find teachers for whom one of these represents their > higest state. If they are not teaching from any of these, then they > are just teaching from the understanding, not their experience. I > went to EST many years ago, EST had a saying, "Understanding is the > booby prize." I would not want a teacher who spoke not at all from > their own experience. > > My understanding of Savikalpa Samadhi is that here the meditator does > not lose such distinctions as the knower, knowledge and the known. > The stand is still as "this person," though with the Self seen as the > real nature. > > Nirvikalpa Samadhi can be described as free from all thoughts of > distinctions, free of differentiations as the known, knowledge and > knower. Ramana refers to Nirvikalpa Samadhi as blissful but not > permanent. He uses the metaphor of "a bucket lowered into a well." > The bucket (vasanas) still exist to draw it out of the well again. > > Sahaja signifies what is effortless, natural and innate. It is the > state of Being the Self and the Self alone. > > From my perspective, I feel like I (we, the community of seekers, the > sangha) are going into what is unknown (the search for our Real > Existence). With such as one speaking from Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa > Samadhi we can learn much about how to start our journey into Self. > One like Ramana provides a direct pointing to Self. This is the > difference in teachers. One who stands as Self can point directly > past mind, past ego, into Being-Consciousness-Bliss. One who stands > as Self is also, I think, living encouragement to the seeker, > saying, "This is for you too. It is easy. It is Who You Are. It is > closer than your own thought." > > As a seeker, I still come from the point of view of "this person," > (so I see myself as a mostly Savikalpa, a little Nirvikalpa kind of > guy) so I know that I do not speak from any real depth. Yet I still > am drawn to share, so I do things like write and post "Freeway Zen" > to share what I am learning about how to approach practice. I would > never think of myself as a "teacher." The teacher to be desired is > one standing as Self, as Being. I have great reverance for Teachers.> > I suspect that the more a teacher "promotes" himself or herself as a > teacher, as Self-realized, then the less this is true. I sometimes > wonder at these books and web pages that feature big pictures of the > Guru, and tell personal stories about one who is said no longer to be > an individual. > > Maybe this is useful, maybe not.> > We are not two,> Richard> > --- In RamanaMaharshi, "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote:> > Dear Alan,> > > > Thank you for your answer Alan!> > Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in > other words, how can such a one have the authority to teach? I think > of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a "geometrical > representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this > imprint to advance to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not > to teach others, or did I misunderstand? > > And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and > ego? And how does this relate to the annihilation of ego?> > All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not > confusing you and the other friends here.> > As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only > the "imprint" stays. It is very hard to proceed from there, because > one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I know".> > Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks.> > I am very happy you took it as I hope you would, just a question to > discover.> > > > Yours in Guru Ramana,> > > > Ben.Community email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Dear Ben: Following are four links that answer the questions you pose in message #6925 entitled tricky question and the question you posed in message #6928: "Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for 'others', in other words how can such a one have the authority to teach" Sri Ramana gave an excellent answer to the latter question: "By him alone whose saved himself can other folk be freed, the help of others is as if the blind the blind would lead." ---From the Collected Works of Sri Ramana Maharshi These links also answer both questions: http://uarelove1.tripod.com/DISCERNMENT.htm http://uarelove1.tripod.com/DIRECT_AND_INDIRECT_PATHS.htm http://uarelove1.tripod.com/Woman_in_Buddhism.htm http://uarelove1.tripod.com/SPIRITUAL_BUSINESS.htm Wishing to refine what is written in the above links and make a more detailed, step by step presentation I have begun writing something new on these subjects. However, it will be a long time before I have it complete. Takes a long time to write and also to look up quotes by Sri Bhagavan. When I have it finished I will put it on the Direct Path Links Directory: http://uarelove1.tripod.com/STD8.htm In the past I spent some time with (took this body to see and be in the company of): Vernon Howard, Swami Muktananda, Nome & Russell, Osho Rajneesh, Satya Sai Baba, J. Krishnamurti, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, Poonjaji (Papaji), Gangaji, etc. The reason I went to see them is the same reason that all who see them, see them. It is the I thought wishing to preserve itself while pretending to wish to end. However, I did not realize at the time that that was why I went to see those sleeping teachers. The first spiritual book I ever read, 29 years ago at age 15, was "The Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharshi". I read the Collected works shortly after that. I memorized the quote: "By him alone whose saved himself can other folk be freed, the help of others is as if the blind the blind would lead". And yet, against that advice I went to see all those sleeping teachers listed above. That was the same reason why I read a couple of thousand spiritual books from so many different teachers and traditions. However I did not realize that was why, very much against the advice of my Guru Sri Ramana Maharshi, that I was reading those books. Instead of seeing the absurdity of the action of the I, the I can create endless thoughts to justify its absurd actions. This is true for almost all spiritual seekers. If my own father were to tell me he was going to charge me a fee everytime I wanted to see him, I would see the absurdity of someone I love and who loves me, making such a statement. How could I have not seen the absurdity of some teacher charging a fee? Because the I thought uses thinking in a combination that will justify its view and actions no matter how absurd that view or action is. Why did I put so little effort into comparing the direct path of Sri Ramana with all these other indirect teachings? Again, the I thought playing its tricks. Seeing sleeping teachers who pretend to be awakened teachers and who charge money, reading the teachings of indirect spiritual paths instead of just practicing the direct path of Sri Ramana by itself without mixing it with other teachings, are two of the millions and millions of tricks the I thought has to preserve its imaginary existence. The I thought pretends to be co-operating with going along a spiritual path, but it really is not going along. It is playing tricks all along the way. It is distorting all along the way. Seeing what spiritual seekers do with Sri Bhagavans teaching is a good example of this. So, anyway, it will take a long time, but I have begun work on an orderly, step by step presentation that goes into all this with plenty of examples and quotes. Maybe two or three people will be interested in this and a few more than six billion people will have no interest in all this. The I thought usually doesn't like to have its tricks exposed. In the mean time, the above listed four links have gone into all this a little bit. Take care, with Love, Michael L. RamanaMaharshi, "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > Friends on the Way, > > There is one thing I really do not understand about certain teachers at the moment. Please understand it is in no way a form of criticism but just a question and I hope someone can clear my doubts. I am trying to be honest about it, so please understand. > Here it is. Let's say I am "fully awakened" or I am "realized". Why would I put up a website and write "I am fully awakened" or I am "realized" belonging to this or that "lineage" on it? > Why would I quit my job and just travel around making money giving satsang all the time? You know, it is big business at the moment. I never go to such meetings, so maybe I am missing the point altogether here? > Did Sri Ramana ask money for satsang/darshan? Did he make any claims of being this or that? Yes I am comparing now, but if you claim to be of his lineage, why not conform to his "standards" or follow his example? > I am aware this is a tricky question but it's better to get it of my chest. Although the last thing I wish is to offend anyone in any way. > > Also I wrote e-mails containing the same question to several teachers but I never got any replies. > > > Warmest regards, > > Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > satkartar5 the <,> in the url is the problem, > > regards, > > Ben. hello Ben, thanks for your time, but no the web-page I am looking for had Nome on the first page. Not Sri Ramana maharshi as it is this time. I am looking for that page where are they? love, Karta > - > hello, > > talking about teachers, I was looking > for Nome and thought they are at > http://www.satramana.org, did I > remember wrong? what happend? > > awareness-peace-love, Karta > > thanks for any info > > > "Richard Clarke" <rclarke@s...> wrote: > > Dear Ben, > > > > A couple of comments if I may. I speak from no particular authority, > > just what I think I have learned from about 35 years of spiritual > > interest and practice (until about 12 years ago the spiritual > > practice was mainly done on my own, without a teacher, other than > > books and my own comtemplation and meditation). The last 12 with a > > teacher, who teaches from a very high stand. > > > > If what I say offends any one, this is surely not my intent. Here I > > go again, trying to share what I think I know. But sharing as a > > fellow seeker, who knows that there is still much ignorance remaining > > in this one. So if there are errors or offence to anyone, I am sorry. > > > > From what I have seen there are, perhaps, several `sets' of spiritual > > teachers, as Alan has written about. I suspect that most truly want > > to support other seekers, and they teach from the point of view of > > either their highest insight or experience, or from their permanent > > stand. Best, I think, are those teachers who teach from their parmant > > stand. > > > > There are some (never many at one time all of the spritual history I > > know of) who stand as Reality, without a trace of ego, as their > > permant, continuous stand. Certainly Ramana was such a one. This is > > what Ramana described as "Sahaja or Sahaja Samadhi." > > > > Ramana also identifes Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa Samadhi. I suspect > > that you will find teachers for whom one of these represents their > > higest state. If they are not teaching from any of these, then they > > are just teaching from the understanding, not their experience. I > > went to EST many years ago, EST had a saying, "Understanding is the > > booby prize." I would not want a teacher who spoke not at all from > > their own experience. > > > > My understanding of Savikalpa Samadhi is that here the meditator does > > not lose such distinctions as the knower, knowledge and the known. > > The stand is still as "this person," though with the Self seen as the > > real nature. > > > > Nirvikalpa Samadhi can be described as free from all thoughts of > > distinctions, free of differentiations as the known, knowledge and > > knower. Ramana refers to Nirvikalpa Samadhi as blissful but not > > permanent. He uses the metaphor of "a bucket lowered into a well." > > The bucket (vasanas) still exist to draw it out of the well again. > > > > Sahaja signifies what is effortless, natural and innate. It is the > > state of Being the Self and the Self alone. > > > > From my perspective, I feel like I (we, the community of seekers, the > > sangha) are going into what is unknown (the search for our Real > > Existence). With such as one speaking from Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa > > Samadhi we can learn much about how to start our journey into Self. > > One like Ramana provides a direct pointing to Self. This is the > > difference in teachers. One who stands as Self can point directly > > past mind, past ego, into Being-Consciousness-Bliss. One who stands > > as Self is also, I think, living encouragement to the seeker, > > saying, "This is for you too. It is easy. It is Who You Are. It is > > closer than your own thought." > > > > As a seeker, I still come from the point of view of "this person," > > (so I see myself as a mostly Savikalpa, a little Nirvikalpa kind of > > guy) so I know that I do not speak from any real depth. Yet I still > > am drawn to share, so I do things like write and post "Freeway Zen" > > to share what I am learning about how to approach practice. I would > > never think of myself as a "teacher." The teacher to be desired is > > one standing as Self, as Being. I have great reverance for Teachers. > > > > I suspect that the more a teacher "promotes" himself or herself as a > > teacher, as Self-realized, then the less this is true. I sometimes > > wonder at these books and web pages that feature big pictures of the > > Guru, and tell personal stories about one who is said no longer to be > > an individual. > > > > Maybe this is useful, maybe not. > > > > We are not two, > > Richard > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > > > Dear Alan, > > > > > > Thank you for your answer Alan! > > > Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in > > other words, how can such a one have the authority to teach? I think > > of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a "geometrical > > representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this > > imprint to advance to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not > > to teach others, or did I misunderstand? > > > And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and > > ego? And how does this relate to the annihilation of ego? > > > All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not > > confusing you and the other friends here. > > > As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only > > the "imprint" stays. It is very hard to proceed from there, because > > one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I know". > > > Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks. > > > I am very happy you took it as I hope you would, just a question to > > discover. > > > > > > Yours in Guru Ramana, > > > > > > Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Dear Karta, I believe that www.satramana.org is now the web page. They did a redo on the web site. You can see Nome in the photo in the satsang section. Was there something specific that you were looking for in the web page? We are not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "satkartar5" <mi_nok> wrote: > "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > > satkartar5 the <,> in the url is the problem, > > > > regards, > > > > Ben. > > hello Ben, thanks for your time, > but no the web-page I am looking for > had Nome on the first page. Not Sri > Ramana maharshi as it is this time. > > I am looking for that page > > where are they? > > love, Karta > > > - > > hello, > > > > talking about teachers, I was looking > > for Nome and thought they are at > > http://www.satramana.org, did I > > remember wrong? what happend? > > > > awareness-peace-love, Karta > > > > thanks for any info > > > > > > "Richard Clarke" <rclarke@s...> wrote: > > > Dear Ben, > > > > > > A couple of comments if I may. I speak from no particular authority, > > > just what I think I have learned from about 35 years of spiritual > > > interest and practice (until about 12 years ago the spiritual > > > practice was mainly done on my own, without a teacher, other than > > > books and my own comtemplation and meditation). The last 12 with a > > > teacher, who teaches from a very high stand. > > > > > > If what I say offends any one, this is surely not my intent. Here I > > > go again, trying to share what I think I know. But sharing as a > > > fellow seeker, who knows that there is still much ignorance remaining > > > in this one. So if there are errors or offence to anyone, I am sorry. > > > > > > From what I have seen there are, perhaps, several `sets' of spiritual > > > teachers, as Alan has written about. I suspect that most truly want > > > to support other seekers, and they teach from the point of view of > > > either their highest insight or experience, or from their permanent > > > stand. Best, I think, are those teachers who teach from their parmant > > > stand. > > > > > > There are some (never many at one time all of the spritual history I > > > know of) who stand as Reality, without a trace of ego, as their > > > permant, continuous stand. Certainly Ramana was such a one. This is > > > what Ramana described as "Sahaja or Sahaja Samadhi." > > > > > > Ramana also identifes Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa Samadhi. I suspect > > > that you will find teachers for whom one of these represents their > > > higest state. If they are not teaching from any of these, then they > > > are just teaching from the understanding, not their experience. I > > > went to EST many years ago, EST had a saying, "Understanding is the > > > booby prize." I would not want a teacher who spoke not at all from > > > their own experience. > > > > > > My understanding of Savikalpa Samadhi is that here the meditator does > > > not lose such distinctions as the knower, knowledge and the known. > > > The stand is still as "this person," though with the Self seen as the > > > real nature. > > > > > > Nirvikalpa Samadhi can be described as free from all thoughts of > > > distinctions, free of differentiations as the known, knowledge and > > > knower. Ramana refers to Nirvikalpa Samadhi as blissful but not > > > permanent. He uses the metaphor of "a bucket lowered into a well." > > > The bucket (vasanas) still exist to draw it out of the well again. > > > > > > Sahaja signifies what is effortless, natural and innate. It is the > > > state of Being the Self and the Self alone. > > > > > > From my perspective, I feel like I (we, the community of seekers, the > > > sangha) are going into what is unknown (the search for our Real > > > Existence). With such as one speaking from Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa > > > Samadhi we can learn much about how to start our journey into Self. > > > One like Ramana provides a direct pointing to Self. This is the > > > difference in teachers. One who stands as Self can point directly > > > past mind, past ego, into Being-Consciousness-Bliss. One who stands > > > as Self is also, I think, living encouragement to the seeker, > > > saying, "This is for you too. It is easy. It is Who You Are. It is > > > closer than your own thought." > > > > > > As a seeker, I still come from the point of view of "this person," > > > (so I see myself as a mostly Savikalpa, a little Nirvikalpa kind of > > > guy) so I know that I do not speak from any real depth. Yet I still > > > am drawn to share, so I do things like write and post "Freeway Zen" > > > to share what I am learning about how to approach practice. I would > > > never think of myself as a "teacher." The teacher to be desired is > > > one standing as Self, as Being. I have great reverance for Teachers. > > > > > > I suspect that the more a teacher "promotes" himself or herself as a > > > teacher, as Self-realized, then the less this is true. I sometimes > > > wonder at these books and web pages that feature big pictures of the > > > Guru, and tell personal stories about one who is said no longer to be > > > an individual. > > > > > > Maybe this is useful, maybe not. > > > > > > We are not two, > > > Richard > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "ashtavakra" <ashta@x> wrote: > > > > Dear Alan, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your answer Alan! > > > > Only I wonder of what use such an awakening can be for "others", in > > > other words, how can such a one have the authority to teach? I think > > > of such an awakening only as a kind of "imprint" or a "geometrical > > > representation of Reality" or "inner Guru". One should use this > > > imprint to advance to "right meditation" and "right insight" and not > > > to teach others, or did I misunderstand? > > > > And what is the difference between vasana's and "sense of self" and > > > ego? And how does this relate to the annihilation of ego? > > > > All these questions sound complicated, I am sorry, I hope I am not > > > confusing you and the other friends here. > > > > As far as I can tell after awakening sense of self returns. Only > > > the "imprint" stays. It is very hard to proceed from there, because > > > one is thrown back into maya and ego likes to say: "I know". > > > > Okay, let me wait for more imput on this subject from other sadhaks. > > > > I am very happy you took it as I hope you would, just a question to > > > discover. > > > > > > > > Yours in Guru Ramana, > > > > > > > > Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 RamanaMaharshi, "Richard Clarke" <rclarke@s...> wrote: > Dear Karta, > > I believe that www.satramana.org is now the web page. They did a redo > on the web site. You can see Nome in the photo in the satsang > section. > > Was there something specific that you were looking for in the web > page? > > We are not two, > Richard > Jo Richard, everything really; I can't open Pdf files.... is it OK if ask Alton to share with me the writings? Love, Karta > > but no the web-page I am looking for > > had Nome on the first page. Not Sri > > Ramana Maharshi as it is this time. > > > > I am looking for that page > > > > where are they? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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