Guest guest Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 So when I started meditating, after some months of observing the breath as Ramana in a few places has advised, I am now trying to make a transition to self-enquiry. It's here that I experience some problems and would be grateful to list members for for whatever advise they can provide me. When I try to find the source of the 'I' thought, I find that in my case it seems to be located in the head and not on the right side of the heart. And if I try to locate the 'I' in the heart, I find that the 'I' in the head is trying to monitor the progress of the one in the heart to see if he is securely resting there. Now there cannot be two 'I's. If I try to investigare, I find that the 'I' in the head is the witness of the one in the heart. That does not seem alright because it is contrary to Ramana's teaching. Has anyone faced a similar problem? or can anyone with more experience in self-enquiry offer me some help. Many thanks and regards, Venkat Plus - For a better Internet experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Dear Venkat, Good questions! I will pass this on to as well. Sri Ramana has answered your questions at many different points. The focus need not be on the head or the heart region but on the feeling awareness of "I AM". It is simply the self-feeling awareness being aware of itself. You do not need to try to locate that feeling-awareness in the body. If the mind gravitates to some center, you need not worry about it and/or struggle with it and can stay with the awareness of "I AM." The Heart has several meanings at many different levels. Sri Ramana spoke of the Spiritual Heart from many different perspectives and said that within the body, it was the One Center on which all centers depend. Ultimately, Sri Ramana emphasized that the Heart means Self, our very Being, that the ancients called Sat-Chit-Ananda where the mind along with all its perceptions subsides. Once you start on the path, you will see what comes natural to you in terms of practice. "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" is an important book because if you are in tune with Sri Ramana, you will be guided and understand what is the right form of practice for you. Other books, for example, such as those edited by David Godman (although they contain many of the important conversations from the original "Talks" and other sources) are too structured and sanitized and may not give that direct connection with Sri Ramana. The original sources consist of the conversations with Sri Ramana written down by devotees. At least, two books have captured that. One in the 1930s and one in the 1940s. The recollections and the letters of the devotees can be very helpful and there are several of those. Love to all Harsha S Venkatraman wrote: After years of an intellectual approach to spirituality, only recently recently did I understand that that route does not take one too far. So I have turned to more 'experiential' methods like meditation etc. While Ramana was always been an inspiration to me, my approach to him all along has been through the intellect. So much so that though born and brought up and living in India, while I have read almost all written material by or about him, I still haven't been to Tiruvannamalai. I hope to set this right soon. So when I started meditating, after some months of observing the breath as Ramana in a few places has advised, I am now trying to make a transition to self-enquiry. It's here that I experience some problems and would be grateful to list members for for whatever advise they can provide me. When I try to find the source of the 'I' thought, I find that in my case it seems to be located in the head and not on the right side of the heart. And if I try to locate the 'I' in the heart, I find that the 'I' in the head is trying to monitor the progress of the one in the heart to see if he is securely resting there. Now there cannot be two 'I's. If I try to investigare, I find that the 'I' in the head is the witness of the one in the heart. That does not seem alright because it is contrary to Ramana's teaching. Has anyone faced a similar problem? or can anyone with more experience in self-enquiry offer me some help. Many thanks and regards, Venkat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Venkat, > When I try to find the source of the 'I' thought, I find that in my case it > seems to be located in the head and not on the right side of the heart. And if > I try to locate the 'I' in the heart, I find that the 'I' in the head is > trying to monitor the progress of the one in the heart to see if he is > securely resting there. Now there cannot be two 'I's. If I try to investigare, > I find that the 'I' in the head is the witness of the one in the heart. That > does not seem alright because it is contrary to Ramana's teaching. > > Has anyone faced a similar problem? or can anyone with more experience in > self-enquiry offer me some help. Many thanks and regards, This is indeed an interesting question and one that sadhakas often shy away from asking. Perhaps because the answer can be construed as the proverbial slap in the face. Often investigation is made in the mind and remains firmly rooted by the 'I' thought itself. Ahamkara survives through objective association. Looking for a location stimulates this. If you perceive 'I' anywhere then there is subject-object association. The Self is not dependent on location. There should be nothing associated with the Self. Instead, investigate what the mind is and it will disappear. Other than thought there is absolutely nothing than can be called mind. Mind is dependent on the arising of the primary thought 'I', alone. This 'I'-thought must be uprooted. Your 'I' in the head and 'I' in the heart are both symptomatic of the primary 'I'-thought. If this was not the case then the above question would not occur. It is common to intellectualise the process of vicara without realising it. Instead one must open to Grace. Ask the question...don't look for an answer. Consider the physical terms head and heart to be arbitrary, they have nothing to do with vicara and everything to do with polemics. Vicara attracts polemical discourse. This is, of course, mindstuff. The quest is of sole importance. Any answer that comes to mind when the question 'Who am 'I' ? is asked...must be enquired into. All thoughts must vanish...'In the course of tracing ourselves back to our source, when all thoughts have vanished, there arises a throb from the Hridaya on the right, manifesting as 'Aham' 'Aham' 'I' - 'I'. This is the sign that Pure Consciousness is beginning to reveal itself. But that is not the end in itself. Watch wherefrom this sphurana (throbbing) arises and wait attentively and continually for the revelation of the Self. Then comes the awareness, oneness of existence. (from a reply, approved by Bhagavan, which was sent to an English devotee; recorded in 'Moments Remembered' by V. Ganesan) When aham sphurana arises from the still depths of the Heart, when this spontaneously happens, there may indeed be a sensation on the right side of the chest. However the location head/heart is not important for vicara. Aham sphurana is the trumpet call of the Self. With practice, Vicara becomes the default situation throughout the day and night. It goes on during conversation, at work, in times of abstract silence. Then success is assured. Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Dear Venkat, Where intellects are strong "I" is strong. (my experience). The bhakti has to come in and loosen the "I". When mind tires of questioning and hits a wall, the mind just surrenders and calls out to that Divinity for help. Your statement "I find that ..." struck a chord for there is another "I" there watching the "I" in head watching the "I" in the heart. I would grab this "I" and go after it. affly, Yamini --- If I try to investigare, I find that the > 'I' in the head is the witness of the one in the > heart. That does not seem alright because it is > contrary to Ramana's teaching. > > > > > Plus - For a better Internet experience > Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. http://calendar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Dear Venkat You wrote: > After years of an intellectual approach to spirituality, only recently recently did I understand that that route does not take one too far. So I have turned to more 'experiential' methods like meditation etc. While Ramana was always been an inspiration to me, my approach to him all along has been through the intellect. So much so that though born and brought up and living in India, while I have read almost all written material by or about him, I still haven't been to Tiruvannamalai. I hope to set this right soon. Comments: I think you have receive lots of good answers from other participants. I just want to support you in your project to come to Tiruvannamalai to get a closer feeling of Bhagavan and Arunachala. I am sure you will find some "inner" answers to your questions. I say "inner" answers because I did not find yet formal resources to give support in our Self-Inquiry practice here in Tiruvannamalai. May be I did not look at the right place....Being a resourceful person, I do not mind too much for me. But I worry for these people who come here in Tiruvannamalai (and Ramanasramam) and return without having been thought the Self-Inquiry method. Furthermore, many local people do not know about Bhagavan's Teachings and the Self-Inquiry method. Who teach them? Where can they learn? Not everyone have access to Internet??? Some might argue that these people are not ready..... I like to think that ALL are ready to receive SOME of Ramana's Teachings..... My opinion is that EVERYONE can benefits from Ramana's Teachings. Sometimes, I feel that many people visit Ramanasramam as they visit other temples on Sri Pradakshina road....My questions: Should/Can this be changed? Is there anything that can be done to give better support to people who want to learn Bhagavan's Teachings and Self-Inquiry method here in Tiruvannamalai? Is there any people with the same feelings? I might be totally wrong in my assessment....... What would be Bhagavan's feelings today? Om Arunachala-Shiva-Ramana! Jacqueline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Hari Om to all: In reply to Venkat: One of the most interesting/delightful parallels to self enquiry comes from Carlos Castaneda in his book "The Power of Silence". Castaneda's work were based on his actual experience with the nagual don Juan(read Shaman/mystic/seeker/spiritual warrior/toltec guru/...) who culminates his teaching to Castaneda with the revealation of the internal dialogue. Don Juan makes Carlos aware of the internal dialog that in unceasing in us. Shut the chatter he says. Keep still. Every time the chatter starts shut it down and become aware of the consciousness of the Self. He says that we have lost our touch with the real self, and this "ego" has taken over. See below for an excerpt from the book. I believe all your observations and conflicts, doubts and questions constitute this internal dialogue. Just see this thoroughly, see that intellect of yours operating. See it without words. Cut that internal dialog and arrive at the totality of your self. Excerpt: ======== "As the feeling of the individual self became stronger, man lost his natural connection to silent knowledge. Modern man, being heir to that development, therefore finds himself so helplessly removed from the source of everything that all he can do is express his despair in violent and cynical acts of self-destruction. Don Juan asserted that the reason for man's cynicism and despair is the bit of silent knowledge left in him, which does two things: one, it gives man an inkling of his ancient connection to the source of everything; and two, it makes man feel that without this connection, he has no hope of peace, of satisfaction, of attainment. I thought I had caught don Juan in a contradiction. I pointed out to him that he had once told me that war was a natural state for a warrior, that peace was an anomaly. ' That's right,' he admitted. ' But war, for a warrior, doesn't mean acts of individual or collective stupidity or vantom violence. War, for a warrior, is the total struggle against that individual self that has deprived man of his power.' " Ram 30-May-03 1:15:53 AM, Yamini Gourishankar <yaminigs wrote: > > > Thu, 29 May 2003 10:15:53 -0700 (PDT) > > Yamini Gourishankar <yaminigs > Subject:Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Self-Enquiry > RamanaMaharshi > > > > Dear Venkat, > > Where intellects are strong "I" is strong. (my > experience). The bhakti has to come in and loosen the > "I". When mind tires of questioning and hits a wall, > the mind just surrenders and calls out to that > Divinity for help. > > Your statement "I find that ..." struck a chord for > there is another "I" there watching the "I" in head > watching the "I" in the heart. I would grab this "I" > and go after it. > > affly, > Yamini > > --- If I try to investigare, I find that the > > 'I' in the head is the witness of the one in the > > heart. That does not seem alright because it is > > contrary to Ramana's teaching. > > > > > > > > > Plus - For a better Internet experience > > > > > > > Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. > http://calendar. > > Sponsor > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Surely a lot can be done and I am a bit surprised to hear from you that not much is being done in Tiruvannamalai. As I have already told I have never been to Tiruvannamalai and hence cannot really tell you why it is not happening there. But I have been to Madurai, the city where there is the famous temple of Goddess Meenakshi (consort of Shiva) as well as the house in which Ramana had his death experience. The house is adjacent to the temple. And a lot is being done in the house. Books on and by Ramana are sold. The same worship that is offered in Ramanashram is also offered here. The room upstairs in which Ramana had his death experience is being maintained in exactly the same way it was when he had the experience and people are encouraged to meditate in that room. The caretaker of the house with local help organises discourses on the teaching of Ramana and even publishes a quarterly magazine on Ramana's teaching. And yet at any given time while there will be thousands at the temple there will be hardly a handful in that house which is called 'Ramana Mandiram' - Ramana Temple. 'Why does this happen?', I cannot tell you. I cannot even tell you, 'Why I myself took to the path of Self-enquiry?' Probably the answer that does not appeal to you, that may be the disciple is not ripe for Ramana's teachings, is indeed the answer. many thanks for your good wishes, Venkat jacqueline_jacques <jacqueline_jacques > wrote: Dear Venkat But I worry for these people who come here in Tiruvannamalai (and Ramanasramam) and return without having been thought the Self-Inquiry method. Furthermore, many local people do not know about Bhagavan's Teachings and the Self-Inquiry method. Who teach them? Where can they learn? Not everyone have access to Internet??? Some might argue that these people are not ready..... I like to think that ALL are ready to receive SOME of Ramana's Teachings..... My opinion is that EVERYONE can benefits from Ramana's Teachings. Sometimes, I feel that many people visit Ramanasramam as they visit other temples on Sri Pradakshina road....My questions: Should/Can this be changed?Is there anything that can be done to give better support to people who want to learn Bhagavan's Teachings and Self-Inquiry method here in Tiruvannamalai?Is there any people with the same feelings? I might be totally wrong in my assessment....... What would be Bhagavan's feelings today? Om Arunachala-Shiva-Ramana!Jacqueline Plus - For a better Internet experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Venkat, > And yet at any given time while there will be thousands at the temple there > will be hardly a handful in that house which is called 'Ramana Mandiram' - > Ramana Temple. 'Why does this happen?', I cannot tell you. I cannot even tell > you, 'Why I myself took to the path of Self-enquiry?' Thank you. An interesting observation. I enclose a copy of a photo which sits here above the computer (I trust the quality suffices). Long may the caretaker continue to look after this house. Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, Miles Attachment: [not stored] Attachment: [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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