Guest guest Posted July 24, 2003 Report Share Posted July 24, 2003 Questioner: How are we to do this [i.e. stop identifying with the body]? Maharaj: You can watch the body, so you are not the body. You can watch the breath, so you are not the vital breath. In the same way, you are not the consciousness; but you have to become one with the consciousness. As you stabilize in the consciousness, dispassion for the body and for the expressions through the body occurs spontaneously. It is a natural renunciation, not a deliberate one. It does not mean that you should neglect your worldly duties; carry these out with full zest. (from Consciousness and the Absolute; The Final Talks of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj © 1994, The Acorn Press) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2003 Report Share Posted July 24, 2003 Hello Miles, I AM also the body. The I AM is in a way very "intimate" with the body. To dive into the I AM is also to discover the body and brain by allowing it to be, to feel it, to accept them just the way they are. Is it not so that you have to face the body and the brain with all their activities in order to go beyond them? Is that the natural renunciation Sri Nisargadatta was pointing at? Love, Ben. - Miles Wright Ramana Maharshi Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:24 PM [RamanaMaharshi] A snippet from Nisargadatta... Questioner: How are we to do this [i.e. stop identifying with the body]?Maharaj: You can watch the body, so you are not the body. You can watch the breath, so you are not the vital breath. In the same way, you are not the consciousness; but you have to become one with the consciousness. As you stabilize in the consciousness, dispassion for the body and for the expressions through the body occurs spontaneously. It is a natural renunciation, not a deliberate one.It does not mean that you should neglect your worldly duties; carry these out with full zest.(from Consciousness and the Absolute; The Final Talks of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj © 1994, The Acorn Press) Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2003 Report Share Posted July 24, 2003 Dear Miles, Ben and ALL, Yes, the SELF is ALL including the body. While the body and the worlds and the universe exist, they are part and parcel of the SELF. The root of the problem is that persons think that they are the body and only the body. And in so thinking they limit themselves to that alone. regards michael --- Ben Hassine <ben.hassine wrote: > A snippet from Nisargadatta...Hello Miles, > > I AM also the body. The I AM is in a way very > "intimate" with the body. To dive into the I AM is > also to discover the body and brain by allowing it > to be, to feel it, to accept them just the way they > are. > Is it not so that you have to face the body and the > brain with all their activities in order to go > beyond them? Is that the natural renunciation Sri > Nisargadatta was pointing at? > > > Love, > > Ben. > > > - > Miles Wright > Ramana Maharshi > Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:24 PM > [RamanaMaharshi] A snippet from > Nisargadatta... > > > > > Questioner: How are we to do this [i.e. stop > identifying with the body]? > > Maharaj: You can watch the body, so you are not > the body. You can watch the breath, so you are not > the vital breath. In the same way, you are not the > consciousness; but you have to become one with the > consciousness. As you stabilize in the > consciousness, dispassion for the body and for the > expressions through the body occurs spontaneously. > It is a natural renunciation, not a deliberate one. > > It does not mean that you should neglect your > worldly duties; carry these out with full zest. > > (from Consciousness and the Absolute; The Final > Talks of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj © 1994, The Acorn > Press) > Sponsor > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: > RamanaMaharshi- > Un: > RamanaMaharshi > List owner: > RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > > Terms of Service. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Hello Ben, > I AM also the body. The I AM is in a way very "intimate" with the body. To > dive into the I AM is also to discover the body and brain by allowing it to > be, to feel it, to accept them just the way they are. > Is it not so that you have to face the body and the brain with all their > activities in order to go beyond them? Is that the natural renunciation Sri > Nisargadatta was pointing at? In 'I am that', Nisargadatta Maharaj says : 'No need of any acts of renunciation. Just turn your mind away, that is all. Desire is merely the fixation of the mind on an idea. Get it out of its grove by denying it attention. Whatever may be the desire or fear, don't dwell upon it. Here and there you may forget, it does not matter. Go back to your attempts till the brushing away of every desire and fear, of every reaction, becomes automatic.' (Chetana Publishers, India) This is vicara on autopilot. The mind's natural predeliction is to remain at its source. Hence when the thought process is arrested by faint, sleep, or extreme joy, or fear etc. it immediately goes back to its source, the Heart, like the river rushing to the ocean. One who constantly practices vicara is caught by the sphurana at such times and knows that thought has entered the Heart, however one who is still enamoured with the 'without', perpetuating the subject and object, forgets and does not know. (cf. Ramana Gita, Chapter; 5). In both cases thought has spontaneously entered the Heart. The sphurana, arising from the Heart is eternal, constantly declaring itself as the root of the 'I'-thought. This perpetual flow of the light of awareness, 'I am That'. Regarding sphurana note: ŒWhen the mind, having pure sattva as its characteristic remains attending to the aham-sphurana, which is the sign of the forthcoming direct experience of the Self, the downward facing heart becomes upward facing, blossoms and remains in the form of that (the Self); (because of this) the aforesaid attention to the source of the aham-spurana alone is the path. When thus attended to, Self, the reality, alone will remain shining in the centre of the Heart as ŒI am I¹. (Sri Bhagavan¹s letter to Ganapati Muni, The Mountain Path, April 1982) Kind Regards, Miles > Questioner: How are we to do this [i.e. stop identifying with the body]? > Maharaj: You can watch the body, so you are not the body. You can watch the > breath, so you are not the vital breath. In the same way, you are not the > consciousness; but you have to become one with the consciousness. As you > stabilize in the consciousness, dispassion for the body and for the > expressions through the body occurs spontaneously. It is a natural > renunciation, not a deliberate one. > > It does not mean that you should neglect your worldly duties; carry these out > with full zest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 Hello Miles, Yes what I called pure I AM is also called (aham)-sphuruna. Even sphurana has to go/transform. In a way I was trying to point out that the sphurana or I AM lives in the body, it seems to be the body. It can be understood by feeling the body as a whole, as part of the whole of manifest existence. My point is, if I may point out, that by merely saying "I am not the body" one creates a false sense of dispassion or liberation. You have to fully experience and accept the body a living thing, an organic entity, to come to the pure I AM, or aham sphuruna and stay there. Would you agree? Regards, Ben. - Miles Wright RamanaMaharshi Friday, July 25, 2003 12:04 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] A snippet from Nisargadatta... om namo bhagavate sri ramanayaHello Ben, > I AM also the body. The I AM is in a way very "intimate" with the body. To > dive into the I AM is also to discover the body and brain by allowing it to > be, to feel it, to accept them just the way they are. > Is it not so that you have to face the body and the brain with all their > activities in order to go beyond them? Is that the natural renunciation Sri > Nisargadatta was pointing at? In 'I am that', Nisargadatta Maharaj says : 'No need of any acts of renunciation. Just turn your mind away, that is all. Desire is merely the fixation of the mind on an idea. Get it out of its grove by denying it attention. Whatever may be the desire or fear, don't dwell upon it. Here and there you may forget, it does not matter. Go back to your attempts till the brushing away of every desire and fear, of every reaction, becomes automatic.' (Chetana Publishers, India)This is vicara on autopilot. The mind's natural predeliction is to remain at its source. Hence when the thought process is arrested by faint, sleep, or extreme joy, or fear etc. it immediately goes back to its source, the Heart, like the river rushing to the ocean. One who constantly practices vicara is caught by the sphurana at such times and knows that thought has entered the Heart, however one who is still enamoured with the 'without', perpetuating the subject and object, forgets and does not know. (cf. Ramana Gita, Chapter; 5). In both cases thought has spontaneously entered the Heart. The sphurana, arising from the Heart is eternal, constantly declaring itself as the root of the 'I'-thought. This perpetual flow of the light of awareness, 'I am That'.Regarding sphurana note: ŒWhen the mind, having pure sattva as its characteristic remains attending to the aham-sphurana, which is the sign of the forthcoming direct experience of the Self, the downward facing heart becomes upward facing, blossoms and remains in the form of that (the Self); (because of this) the aforesaid attention to the source of the aham-spurana alone is the path. When thus attended to, Self, the reality, alone will remain shining in the centre of the Heart as ŒI am I¹. (Sri Bhagavan¹s letter to Ganapati Muni, The Mountain Path, April 1982)Kind Regards,Miles > Questioner: How are we to do this [i.e. stop identifying with the body]?> Maharaj: You can watch the body, so you are not the body. You can watch the > breath, so you are not the vital breath. In the same way, you are not the > consciousness; but you have to become one with the consciousness. As you > stabilize in the consciousness, dispassion for the body and for the > expressions through the body occurs spontaneously. It is a natural > renunciation, not a deliberate one.> > It does not mean that you should neglect your worldly duties; carry these out > with full zest. Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Hello Ben, > Yes what I called pure I AM is also called (aham)-sphuruna. Even sphurana has > to go/transform. In a way I was trying to point out that the sphurana or I AM > lives in the body, it seems to be the body. It can be understood by feeling > the body as a whole, as part of the whole of manifest existence. > My point is, if I may point out, that by merely saying "I am not the body" one > creates a false sense of dispassion or liberation. You have to fully > experience and accept the body a living thing, an organic entity, to come to > the pure I AM, or aham sphuruna and stay there. Would you agree? That which exists is 'aham'. When ahamkara (ego-sense; lit. 'I' maker) dies, That-which-is, 'aham' (I am), exists as it has always existed. The body is entirely dependent on the Self, the Self is never dependent on the body. Sphurana is, indeed, the manifestation of this Self in the body. It is identified with the Heart. From the Heart, Consciousness arises, and spreads throughout the body. Then there is consciousness of the objective universe. All this manifests from the Heart initially. If this process is reversed, as one returns to the source, sphurana is felt. This is the beginning of the revelation of Pure Consciousness. The Self, awareness absolute, underpins even this. Indeed, an intellectual statement such as 'I am not the body', while useful, operates at the same level as 'I am not a teapot'. Surely, the 'I' who makes such declarations must be enquired into. To merely say 'I am not this' is not enough...one must mean it ...but then there is no 'I am not this', there is only 'aham', 'I am'. Regards, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 Hello Miles, Yes. I understand and agree. I think what I like to call I AM is this pulsating "I-I" feeling. This is called sphurana, am I right? There is a lot of tension, pulsation and even "primal sound" in that state. Beyond that is the Silence of "I" or Self. My point was and is -I hope I am not annoying you with all this- that the body is the gateway to this sphurana. In a way the body is the temple where the Heart is the inner sanctum. I have the strong intuition it is wrong to say "the body and the world are mere illusions". You see, you would neglect all the beauty and significance of "I" in it's manifest aspect. Why not embrace the body? In fact I AM embraces and pervades "all that is". I AM is Love. And Love does not exclude. The screen (I AM) would never neglect the pictures (body/mind/world) projected on it by the light of "I". I find it very hard to express this. My intention is to share and communicate understanding, insight and to learn. Not to operate on an egoic/intellectual level. Sri Ramana asked us to find out for ourselves. He didn't ask us to parrot his words, recite them and blindly accept them as "Truth". om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya, Ben. - Miles Wright RamanaMaharshi Friday, July 25, 2003 3:15 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] A snippet from Nisargadatta... om namo bhagavate sri ramanayaHello Ben, > Yes what I called pure I AM is also called (aham)-sphuruna. Even sphurana has > to go/transform. In a way I was trying to point out that the sphurana or I AM > lives in the body, it seems to be the body. It can be understood by feeling > the body as a whole, as part of the whole of manifest existence.> My point is, if I may point out, that by merely saying "I am not the body" one > creates a false sense of dispassion or liberation. You have to fully > experience and accept the body a living thing, an organic entity, to come to > the pure I AM, or aham sphuruna and stay there. Would you agree?That which exists is 'aham'. When ahamkara (ego-sense; lit. 'I' maker) dies, That-which-is, 'aham' (I am), exists as it has always existed. The body is entirely dependent on the Self, the Self is never dependent on the body. Sphurana is, indeed, the manifestation of this Self in the body. It is identified with the Heart. From the Heart, Consciousness arises, and spreads throughout the body. Then there is consciousness of the objective universe. All this manifests from the Heart initially. If this process is reversed, as one returns to the source, sphurana is felt. This is the beginning of the revelation of Pure Consciousness. The Self, awareness absolute, underpins even this. Indeed, an intellectual statement such as 'I am not the body', while useful, operates at the same level as 'I am not a teapot'. Surely, the 'I' who makes such declarations must be enquired into. To merely say 'I am not this' is! not enough...one must mean it ....but then there is no 'I am not this', there is only 'aham', 'I am'.Regards,Miles Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Hello Ben, > Yes. I understand and agree. I think what I like to call I AM is this > pulsating "I-I" feeling. This is called sphurana, am I right? Indeed. That seems to be the case. It is the palpable manifestation (sphurana). > There is a lot of tension, pulsation and even "primal sound" in that state. Beyond that is > the Silence of "I" or Self. Like the eternal sruti note, underlying all manifestation. > My point was and is -I hope I am not annoying you with all this- that the body > is the gateway to this sphurana. In a way the body is the temple where the > Heart is the inner sanctum. I have the strong intuition it is wrong to say > "the body and the world are mere illusions". You see, you would neglect all > the beauty and significance of "I" in it's manifest aspect. Why not embrace > the body? In fact I AM embraces and pervades "all that is". I AM is Love. And > Love does not exclude. The screen (I AM) would never neglect the pictures > (body/mind/world) projected on it by the light of "I". Indeed. Illusion is nothing but limited perspective. The non-self is nothing other than the Self. > I find it very hard to express this. My intention is to share and communicate > understanding, insight and to learn. Not to operate on an egoic/intellectual > level. Thank you. > Sri Ramana asked us to find out for ourselves. He didn't ask us to > parrot his words, recite them and blindly accept them as "Truth". Of course. Sri Ramana's words are the most valuable pointers... but merely repeating them, without following them, is like attempting to travel from Edinburgh to London by merely reading the map, over and over again. Although, surely, such rehearsal is excellent preparation for the perfect journey, when, at last, it is undertaken. om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya, Regards, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Dear Miles, Thank you for your reply. It is hard these days to discus these subjects in a gentle, intelligent and friendly manner. I sense true loving kindness and a sincere effort to understand and find out together. I am very happy and thankful for that. I wish all spiritual aspirants could come together and share understanding in such affectionate manner. Thank you. om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Warmest regards, Ben. - surya narayan RamanaMaharshi Sunday, July 27, 2003 9:50 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] A snippet from Nisargadatta... ThankyMiles Wright <ramana.bhakta (AT) virgin (DOT) net> wrote: om namo bhagavate sri ramanayaHello Ben, > Yes. I understand and agree. I think what I like to call I AM is this > pulsating "I-I" feeling. This is called sphurana, am I right? Indeed. That seems to be the case. It is the palpable manifestation (sphurana). > There is a lot of tension, pulsation and even "primal sound" in that state. Beyond that is > the Silence of "I" or Self.Like the eternal sruti note, underlying all manifestation. > My point was and is -I hope I am not annoying you with all this- that the body > is the gateway to this sphurana. In a way the body is the temple where the > Heart is the inner sanctum. I have the strong intuition it is wrong to say > "the body and the world are mere illusions". You see, you would neglect all > the beauty and significance of "I" in it's manifest aspect. Why not embrace > the body? In fact I AM embraces and pervades "all that is". I AM is Love. And > Love does not exclude. The screen (I AM) would never neglect the pictures > (body/mind/world) projected on it by the light of "I".Indeed. Illusion is nothing but limited perspective. The non-self is nothing other than the Self. > I find it very hard to express this. My intention is to share and communicate > understanding, insight and to learn. Not to operate on an egoic/intellectual > level. Thank you. > Sri Ramana asked us to find out for ourselves. He didn't ask us to > parrot his words, recite them and blindly accept them as "Truth".Of course. Sri Ramana's words are the most valuable pointers... but merely repeating them, without following them, is like attempting to travel from Edinburgh to London by merely reading the map, over and over again. Although, surely, such rehearsal is excellent preparation for the perfect journey, when, at last, it is undertaken.om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya,Regards,Miles Community email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the SMS using the Messenger; Download latest version. Community email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 My desktop pc, probably doing atma vichara, crashed a few times yesterday. And a truncated mail (Thanky) on my name got posted and I did not even know about it! Here is the full version. Hope this appears without any modification! Thank you dear Sri Ben for the dialogue on A snippet from Nisargadatta Maharaj. Thank you dear Sri Miles for the elucidation. Thank you dear Sri Ben and Sri Alan for the poems on atma vichara. I enjoyed the dialogue and the poems thoroughly. om gurave namah suri SMS using the Messenger; Download latest version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hi Ben, This reminds me of J. Krishnamurti when he got his realization (what he called "the process") one of the first remarks was "Oh this wonderful body, oh this wonderful body"). The denial and neglectance of the body is a misunderstanding. Where else could rise, when realized the Self, all that feelings of bliss and love than from the body ? I can't imagine that consciousness alone will be able to produce bliss - it is the body. But when the burden of the ego is gone, the body is freed from all those neurotic restrictions and will live in it's full capacity and greatness and that is the bliss we experience. Werner RamanaMaharshi, "Ben Hassine" <ben.hassine@x> wrote: > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] A snippet from Nisargadatta...Hello Miles, > > Yes. I understand and agree. I think what I like to call I AM is this pulsating "I-I" feeling. This is called sphurana, am I right? There is a lot of tension, pulsation and even "primal sound" in that state. Beyond that is the Silence of "I" or Self. > My point was and is -I hope I am not annoying you with all this- that the body is the gateway to this sphurana. In a way the body is the temple where the Heart is the inner sanctum. I have the strong intuition it is wrong to say "the body and the world are mere illusions". You see, you would neglect all the beauty and significance of "I" in it's manifest aspect. Why not embrace the body? In fact I AM embraces and pervades "all that is". I AM is Love. And Love does not exclude. The screen (I AM) would never neglect the pictures (body/mind/world) projected on it by the light of "I". > I find it very hard to express this. My intention is to share and communicate understanding, insight and to learn. Not to operate on an egoic/intellectual level. Sri Ramana asked us to find out for ourselves. He didn't ask us to parrot his words, recite them and blindly accept them as "Truth". > > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya, > > Ben. > - > Miles Wright > RamanaMaharshi > Friday, July 25, 2003 3:15 PM > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] A snippet from Nisargadatta... > > > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Hello Ben, > > > > Yes what I called pure I AM is also called (aham)-sphuruna. Even sphurana has > > to go/transform. In a way I was trying to point out that the sphurana or I AM > > lives in the body, it seems to be the body. It can be understood by feeling > > the body as a whole, as part of the whole of manifest existence. > > My point is, if I may point out, that by merely saying "I am not the body" one > > creates a false sense of dispassion or liberation. You have to fully > > experience and accept the body a living thing, an organic entity, to come to > > the pure I AM, or aham sphuruna and stay there. Would you agree? > > > That which exists is 'aham'. When ahamkara (ego-sense; lit. 'I' maker) dies, That-which-is, 'aham' (I am), exists as it has always existed. The body is entirely dependent on the Self, the Self is never dependent on the body. Sphurana is, indeed, the manifestation of this Self in the body. It is identified with the Heart. From the Heart, Consciousness arises, and spreads throughout the body. Then there is consciousness of the objective universe. All this manifests from the Heart initially. If this process is reversed, as one returns to the source, sphurana is felt. This is the beginning of the revelation of Pure Consciousness. The Self, awareness absolute, underpins even this. Indeed, an intellectual statement such as 'I am not the body', while useful, operates at the same level as 'I am not a teapot'. Surely, the 'I' who makes such declarations must be enquired into. To merely say 'I am not this' is! not enough...one must mean it ...but then there is no 'I am not this', there is only 'aham', 'I am'. > > Regards, > Miles > Sponsor > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 --- wwoehr <wwoehr wrote: > The denial and neglectance of the body is a > misunderstanding. Where > else could rise, when realized the Self, all that > feelings of bliss > and love than from the body ? I can't imagine that > consciousness > alone will be able to produce bliss - it is the > body. > Dear Werner and ALL, Well said Werner. The Bliss of Satchidananda is the most amazing experience of life. This bliss is the true realization. It is experienced within the body. Sat is all that exists whether seen or unseen. Chit is consciousness which cognizes all; but Ananda is another thing altogether. Ananda/Bliss is cognized by consciousness; but it is altogether a different aspect of Satchidananda. When you have experienced IT then you know who you are for REAL. There is no doubt. All doubts and misgivings and wonderings are erased forever. After that experience no matter what happens, pleasure or pain, loss or gain, etc., etc. you know your eternal and undying nature that cannot be known in any other way. This bliss is experienced through the body. It manifests in an organic way. It is a transcendental experience that involves what we might loosely refer to as the "sexual energy". But it is this energy which is experienced in another way. In other centers, i.e. the heart. Dear friends, how do you suppose that Sri Ramana was able to be immersed in this bliss for weeks while staying in the "...lingam" cellar at the Arunachaleshwar Temple". The bugs were eating him. He was not eating or drinking except for what little was being forced into him. And I tell you that he was lost in the transcendental bliss of the divine that is so powerful that upon experiencing it nothing is left to be desired. But it wasn't any accident that our dear Ramana was immeresed in this samadhi in the "...lingam cellar". (Was it called the "phtala lingam"?) Why do you think that all over India the lingam/yoni is used as the symbol of the divine? Because under certain circumstances when the jiva is ripe s/he experiences the unmanifest power that is the origin and support of the manifest universe within their very own body. This is the heart. This is the realization of the SELF. This is the source of the "I" thought. regards, michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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