Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Dear Hur , Metaphors succeed because of the precision in which they are stated ..You seem to have the knack .All this reminds me of a saying by Wei Wu Wei that all this discussion abour enlightenment etc. is like pyjama clad characters in one's night-dream discussing exactly how they propose to wake up next morning .Regards Alan ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > All this reminds me of a saying by Wei Wu Wei that all this discussion abour > enlightenment etc. is like pyjama clad characters in one's night- dream discussing exactly how > they propose to wake up next morning .Regards Alan > how true. talking about dreams: once i had a dream in which i kept waking up in the dream. each time i was so sure i was awake, till i woke up again. i'm not telling this story to make a point or anything like that...it was just a dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 RamanaMaharshi, "Hur Guler" <hurg> wrote: > RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > > All this reminds me of a saying by Wei Wu Wei that all this > discussion abour > > enlightenment etc. is like pyjama clad characters in one's night- > dream discussing exactly how > > they propose to wake up next morning .Regards Alan > > > how true. talking about dreams: once i had a dream in which i kept > waking up in the dream. each time i was so sure i was awake, till i > woke up again. i'm not telling this story to make a point or > anything like that...it was just a dream. LOL Here's a point... It's impossible to wake up from a dream, that has not been dreamt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 --Dear Sandeep,how very true , thanks , a point i have missed in contemplating this one .Love,In Him , Alan <sandeepc wrote: > RamanaMaharshi, "Hur Guler" <hurg> wrote: > > RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs > > <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > > > All this reminds me of a saying by Wei Wu Wei that all this > > discussion abour > > > enlightenment etc. is like pyjama clad characters in one's > night- > > dream discussing exactly how > > > they propose to wake up next morning .Regards Alan > > > > > how true. talking about dreams: once i had a dream in which i kept > > waking up in the dream. each time i was so sure i was awake, till > i > > woke up again. i'm not telling this story to make a point or > > anything like that...it was just a dream. > > > LOL > > Here's a point... > > It's impossible to wake up from a dream, that has not been dreamt. > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Your use of is subject to > > ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 But even the dream participates on Self Looking at the header - one could also say the contrary: Life is reality!) And indeed: life is reality and not a dream It dependents on what one sees as Life. endless philosophy Oh Ramana, Gabriele likes today more to go for a cycling-tour than reading philosophy - wondering what the question really is Ciao - Alan Jacobs RamanaMaharshi Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:41 AM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Life is but a dream --Dear Sandeep,how very true , thanks , a point i have missed in contemplating this one .Love,InHim , Alan > > Here's a point...> > It's impossible to wake up from a dream, that has not been dreamt.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 --Dear Gabriele , the Sages give the dream analogy to weaken the identification with the world ..For the seeker -first see the world as unreal , a dream , etc. then after Realization one knows the world as the Real .In Zen terms -first there was a mountain[the ignorant perception]then there was no mountain[ only an appearance ,for the sadhak]then there was a mountain again [after satori].Enjoy your cycle ride , Love , in his grace , Alan > - > Alan Jacobs > RamanaMaharshi > Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:41 AM > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Life is but a dream > > > --Dear Sandeep,how very true , thanks , a point i have missed in contemplating this one > .Love,In > Him , Alan > > > > > > > Here's a point... > > > > It's impossible to wake up from a dream, that has not been dreamt. > > > ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Dear Alan, yes, of course, this is known. There is no contradiciton Nevertheless - to say the world is unreal is likewise ture or wrong as to say the contrary. If you say the world is real then it is real for you, if you say it is unreal it is unreal for you. So for WHOM is it real or unreal???? And which world? This is the quest always, in the beginning, at the middle and in the end. The same quest. So to see the world as real or unreal - is mereley dependend on WHOM. At the moment I enjoy making the following exercise: I look at everything as God - if you look so then it is so - as you look so it is for you - but the looker - who is the one who sees the world as God? Again at last always stays the last quest. So neti-neti - may be helpful at one part - but it is also a mind-construction. For whom is neti-neti? I also can say the contrary and it is in the same way true...... Love in Bhagavan, who surely would have some fun with our talks here - and sometimes his worries Gabriele RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > --Dear Gabriele , > > the Sages give the dream analogy to weaken the identification with the world .For the seeker > -first see the world as unreal , a dream , etc. then after Realization one knows the world as the > Real .In Zen terms -first there was a mountain[the ignorant perception]then there was no mountain[ > only an appearance ,for the sadhak]then there was a mountain again [after satori].Enjoy your > cycle ride , Love , in his grace , Alan > > > > - > > Alan Jacobs > > RamanaMaharshi > > Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:41 AM > > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Life is but a dream > > > > > > --Dear Sandeep,how very true , thanks , a point i have missed in contemplating this one > > .Love,In > > Him , Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a point... > > > > > > It's impossible to wake up from a dream, that has not been dreamt. > > > > > > > ____________________ __ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE > Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 ---Dear Gabriele, I am sure there is no contradiction - it depends on where you are in the understanding as to whether you view the world [this sensory one]as a mirage[verses 19-99 of the Garland of Guru's Sayings are on this theme] or as a Reality whose substrate are Divine .From the Advaitin's point of view we strike a paradox-The world is both Real and Unreal at the same time-if we transcend both apparant opposites we reach Silence .It is a bit like a Zen Koan and when the mind gives up there IS OMLY WHAT IS [call it what you will].All love , in Him,Alan > yes, of course, this is known. > There is no contradiciton > Nevertheless - to say the world is unreal is likewise ture or wrong > as to say the contrary. If you say the world is real then it is real > for you, if you say it is unreal it is unreal for you. So for WHOM is > it real or unreal???? And which world? This is the quest always, in > the beginning, at the middle and in the end. The same quest. So to > see the world as real or unreal - is mereley dependend on WHOM. > > At the moment I enjoy making the following exercise: I look at > everything as God - if you look so then it is so - as you look so it > is for you - but the looker - who is the one who sees the world as > God? Again at last always stays the last quest. So neti-neti - may be > helpful at one part - but it is also a mind-construction. For whom is > neti-neti? I also can say the contrary and it is in the same way > true...... > Love in Bhagavan, who surely would have some fun with our talks here - > and sometimes his worries > Gabriele > > > RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > > --Dear Gabriele , > > > > the Sages give the dream analogy to weaken the identification with > the world .For the seeker > > -first see the world as unreal , a dream , etc. then after > Realization one knows the world as the > > Real .In Zen terms -first there was a mountain[the ignorant > perception]then there was no mountain[ > > only an appearance ,for the sadhak]then there was a mountain again > [after satori].Enjoy your > > cycle ride , Love , in his grace , Alan > > > > > > > - > > > Alan Jacobs > > > RamanaMaharshi > > > Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:41 AM > > > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Life is but a dream > > > > > > > > > --Dear Sandeep,how very true , thanks , a point i have missed > in contemplating this one > > > .Love,In > > > Him , Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a point... > > > > > > > > It's impossible to wake up from a dream, that has not been > dreamt. > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > __ > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE > > > Messenger http://uk.messenger./ > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Your use of is subject to > > ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Right, Alan, fully agreed! WHO will solve this koan??? anbudan Gabriele - Alan Jacobs RamanaMaharshi Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:50 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Life is but a dream ---Dear Gabriele,I am sure there is no contradiction - it depends on where you are in the understanding as towhether you view the world [this sensory one]as a mirage[verses 19-99 of the Garland of Guru'sSayings are on this theme] or as a Reality whose substrate are Divine .From the Advaitin's pointof view we strike a paradox-The world is both Real and Unreal at the same time-if we transcendboth apparant opposites we reach Silence .It is a bit like a Zen Koan and when the mind gives up there IS OMLY WHAT IS [call it what you will].All love , in Him,Alan > yes, of course, this is known.> There is no contradiciton > Nevertheless - to say the world is unreal is likewise ture or wrong > as to say the contrary. If you say the world is real then it is real > for you, if you say it is unreal it is unreal for you. So for WHOM is > it real or unreal???? And which world? This is the quest always, in > the beginning, at the middle and in the end. The same quest. So to > see the world as real or unreal - is mereley dependend on WHOM.> > At the moment I enjoy making the following exercise: I look at > everything as God - if you look so then it is so - as you look so it > is for you - but the looker - who is the one who sees the world as > God? Again at last always stays the last quest. So neti-neti - may be > helpful at one part - but it is also a mind-construction. For whom is > neti-neti? I also can say the contrary and it is in the same way > true...... > Love in Bhagavan, who surely would have some fun with our talks here -> and sometimes his worries> Gabriele> > > RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs> wrote:> > --Dear Gabriele ,> > > > the Sages give the dream analogy to weaken the identification with > the world .For the seeker> > -first see the world as unreal , a dream , etc. then after > Realization one knows the world as the> > Real .In Zen terms -first there was a mountain[the ignorant > perception]then there was no mountain[> > only an appearance ,for the sadhak]then there was a mountain again > [after satori].Enjoy your> > cycle ride , Love , in his grace , Alan> > > > > > > - > > > Alan Jacobs > > > To: RamanaMaharshi > > > Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:41 AM> > > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Life is but a dream> > > > > > > > > --Dear Sandeep,how very true , thanks , a point i have missed > in contemplating this one> > > .Love,In> > > Him , Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a point...> > > > > > > > It's impossible to wake up from a dream, that has not been > dreamt.> > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________> __> > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE > > > Messenger http://uk.messenger./> > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-> Un: RamanaMaharshi> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner> > Shortcut URL to this page:> http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Your use of Groups is subject to > > ______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./Community email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Dear Gabriele , a tentative solution until the Great Koan is ultimately solved by Grace is "to live in the world as if it is Real knowing it is not "{an illision created by the senses as the Great German Vedantist Schopenhauer put it .}All love , in Him , Alan ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Dear Alan, if the world would only be a creation of the senses - it would not be worth to have a look at this phata-morgana:) - and also not to live in it as real. I don't think that reality/ unreality it the koan to be solved. The only koan is not the reality or unreality of the world - but: Who am I? love as ever Gabriele nice Sunday-talk. I should do some translation work - Alan Jacobs RamanaMaharshi Sunday, August 24, 2003 1:45 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Life is but a dream Dear Gabriele , a tentative solution until the Great Koan is ultimately solved by Grace is "tolive in the world as if it is Real knowing it is not "{an illision created by the senses as theGreat German Vedantist Schopenhauer put it ..}All love , in Him , Alan ______________________Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./Community email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 RamanaMaharshi, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > Dear Alan, > if the world would only be a creation of the senses - it would not be worth to have a look at this phata-morgana:) > - and also not to live in it as real. I don't think that reality/ unreality it the koan to be solved. > The only koan is not the reality or unreality of the world - but: Who am I? ----- The reality or the unreality of the world is the reality or the unreality of the one to whom the koan- Who am I, .......is a koan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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