Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Dear Mahesh, I have recently joined this group because I am deeply interested in Ramana. I am not a big fan of reading and pondering books that have been written about him. My experience of him is through a simple message: "Keep Quiet" (Summa Iru). If you are still, the answers may come to you. At the very least, your suffering will be minimal if you can bring your mind to a place of neutrality or quietness. His message of keep quiet has changed my life from the inside out and I can tell you that it has saved my life and continues to help me every day, and every time that I choose to abide by it. To answer your question about why the self is born in maya and why it has to suffer, instead of being born fully liberated, here is my response. Please know that this is where I am at today. My understanding or lack thereof is here for all to see and criticize, and that is just fine by me. There is a series of books out by the name of "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. To me he is not a saint or realized person but a great messenger. The message from God on this issue was stated in the following manner (I am paraphrasing, these are not the exact words): In the beginning all there was, was God Itself. God is so vast and beautiful and powerful, but She had no way to way to know how truly vast and beautiful and powerful She was. So she created an illusion of oppositeness (relativity) for a part of herself. This small part of God now had to experience smallness, ugliness and fear, instead of love, vastness and power which was the natural state. This small part of God when immersed in all of the difficulty and the illusion of smallness, fear, etc (which in Hinduism we call Maya) then cried out for help to the larger part of its Self and said "Help Me, Save Me, please help me to get out of this suffering, and help me to be big and vast and powerful like you". And the little part then merged into the big part and the Illusion was lifted. Through this experience God came to appreciate its vastness, its power, its beauty experientially, and not just intellectually. If you think about it, if it was daytime all the time, we would not appreciate the sun as much. It is because of nighttime that we appreciate the daytime. Without winter we do not appreciate summer and so on. Therefore the Universe is constantly creating and uncreating, and this is the Divine Leela or Play: God Having Fun in His/Her Sandbox. So the gist is that you are God, and you took this journey into Ignorance knowingly so that this in this world of relativity (where there are opposites) you may live and you may choose from what you are (which is peace, love, bliss) or what you are not (fear, death, suffering). But of course you do not experientially know that you are God, or this whole discussion would not have arisen. So now that you know this concept that you are God, how will you choose to live? Will you try to discover for yourself who you truly are, and abide in that? A few people like Ramana and Eckhart Tolle go through a dramatic experience where their ego dies and they come out of it knowing and being only their True Self. Others are born this way. But most of us have to undo patterns of conditioned thinking and behavior that date back to our childhood and perhaps lifetimes before, if one believes in reincarnation. To undo these patterns we need intense seeking and the help of the Universe, which in Hinduism we call the Grace of The Guru. So seek on my dear friend and do not get lost in arguments of logic. This is a journey of the Heart, not of the Mind. Your being, your soul, your highest self is calling you. Answer the phone and drop everything else. You are on Fire and you need to douse the Fire. Jump into the River right now. Do not wait. Do it right now. Of course this parable is not easy to stomach and I might come under fire for relating a non-Ramana story on this list. But I felt that I had to speak. Words are constricting, concepts are constricting, and the Divine Truth cannot be expressed in our primitive languages. However, the most eloquent of all is Silence and the Divine speaks to us, but the question is are we listening? There are many on this list who will debate things like "who is the listener, and to whom is the Illusion occurring" etc. but the only question I pose back to such people is: are you at peace 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Until you can show mastery in your life, don't just talk of ideas. Show me the proof in your life and Lead the way through example. Until then talk to me of your imperfections, and your challenges, and be honest about where you are at. Don't just pretend to be a trader of Ramana-talk. With love and best wishes to all, Ashish Mahajan RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Sunday, August 24, 2003 5:17 AM RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Digest Number 1047 Message: 1 Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:53:30 -0000 "Mahesh Y" <yellai_mahesh questions from an ignorant man hello all, i am new to this group and sought membership here with the sole puprose of seeking answers to questions that have been dwelling in my mind for some time. i request members of this group to kindly send answers to questions that i post here. Even though my association with the advaitha philosophy has been only superficial and casual, i began to believe that advaitha describes 'reality' in the most consistent and complete way to ignorant souls like mine who has not yet experienced the truth. However i have this question to which i could not find convincing answers. If the experiences of the self are maya and liberation is when the self realises the truth, i ask why is it that the self not born liberated and why does the self need to struggle to realise the truth. what is the need for the existenece of maya. why does this 'relative' world exist as is perceived? hoping to read answers to the question, mahesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 hi all, it was good reading those replies to my earlier questions. Ashish, thanks for the reply. In fact i did read Neale's works and found them quite impressive and genuine. I do believe in the model of universe that Neale proposes in his works. However, when it comes to the question 'why', I find it a little difficult to believe that the experiences of the self are part of a game that the self plays with itself. As that raises another question as to 'why' does the 'self' exist in the first place. with love towards one and all, Mahesh. --- Ashish Mahajan <ash.mahajan wrote: > Dear Mahesh, > > I have recently joined this group because I am > deeply interested in > Ramana. I am not a big fan of reading and pondering > books that have > been written about him. My experience of him is > through a simple > message: "Keep Quiet" (Summa Iru). If you are > still, the answers may > come to you. At the very least, your suffering will > be minimal if you > can bring your mind to a place of neutrality or > quietness. His message > of keep quiet has changed my life from the inside > out and I can tell you > that it has saved my life and continues to help me > every day, and every > time that I choose to abide by it. > > To answer your question about why the self is born > in maya and why it > has to suffer, instead of being born fully > liberated, here is my > response. Please know that this is where I am at > today. My > understanding or lack thereof is here for all to see > and criticize, and > that is just fine by me. > > There is a series of books out by the name of > "Conversations with God" > by Neale Donald Walsch. To me he is not a saint or > realized person but > a great messenger. The message from God on this > issue was stated in the > following manner (I am paraphrasing, these are not > the exact words): > > In the beginning all there was, was God Itself. God > is so vast and > beautiful and powerful, but She had no way to way to > know how truly vast > and beautiful and powerful She was. So she created > an illusion of > oppositeness (relativity) for a part of herself. > This small part of God > now had to experience smallness, ugliness and fear, > instead of love, > vastness and power which was the natural state. > This small part of God > when immersed in all of the difficulty and the > illusion of smallness, > fear, etc (which in Hinduism we call Maya) then > cried out for help to > the larger part of its Self and said "Help Me, Save > Me, please help me > to get out of this suffering, and help me to be big > and vast and > powerful like you". And the little part then merged > into the big part > and the Illusion was lifted. Through this > experience God came to > appreciate its vastness, its power, its beauty > experientially, and not > just intellectually. > > If you think about it, if it was daytime all the > time, we would not > appreciate the sun as much. It is because of > nighttime that we > appreciate the daytime. Without winter we do not > appreciate summer and > so on. Therefore the Universe is constantly > creating and uncreating, > and this is the Divine Leela or Play: God Having Fun > in His/Her Sandbox. > > So the gist is that you are God, and you took this > journey into > Ignorance knowingly so that this in this world of > relativity (where > there are opposites) you may live and you may choose > from what you are > (which is peace, love, bliss) or what you are not > (fear, death, > suffering). But of course you do not experientially > know that you are > God, or this whole discussion would not have arisen. > So now that you > know this concept that you are God, how will you > choose to live? Will > you try to discover for yourself who you truly are, > and abide in that? > A few people like Ramana and Eckhart Tolle go > through a dramatic > experience where their ego dies and they come out of > it knowing and > being only their True Self. Others are born this > way. But most of us > have to undo patterns of conditioned thinking and > behavior that date > back to our childhood and perhaps lifetimes before, > if one believes in > reincarnation. To undo these patterns we need > intense seeking and the > help of the Universe, which in Hinduism we call the > Grace of The Guru. > So seek on my dear friend and do not get lost in > arguments of logic. > This is a journey of the Heart, not of the Mind. > Your being, your soul, > your highest self is calling you. Answer the phone > and drop everything > else. You are on Fire and you need to douse the > Fire. Jump into the > River right now. Do not wait. Do it right now. > > Of course this parable is not easy to stomach and I > might come under > fire for relating a non-Ramana story on this list. > But I felt that I > had to speak. Words are constricting, concepts are > constricting, and > the Divine Truth cannot be expressed in our > primitive languages. > However, the most eloquent of all is Silence and the > Divine speaks to > us, but the question is are we listening? > > There are many on this list who will debate things > like "who is the > listener, and to whom is the Illusion occurring" > etc. but the only > question I pose back to such people is: are you at > peace 24 hours a day, > 7 days a week? Until you can show mastery in your > life, don't just talk > of ideas. Show me the proof in your life and Lead > the way through > example. Until then talk to me of your > imperfections, and your > challenges, and be honest about where you are at. > Don't just pretend to > be a trader of Ramana-talk. > > With love and best wishes to all, > > Ashish Mahajan > > RamanaMaharshi > [RamanaMaharshi] > Sunday, August 24, 2003 5:17 AM > RamanaMaharshi > [RamanaMaharshi] Digest Number 1047 > > Message: 1 > Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:53:30 -0000 > "Mahesh Y" <yellai_mahesh > questions from an ignorant man > > hello all, > > i am new to this group and sought membership here > with the sole > puprose of seeking answers to questions that have > been dwelling in my > mind for some time. > > i request members of this group to kindly send > answers to questions > that i post here. > > Even though my association with the advaitha > philosophy has been only > superficial and casual, i began to believe that > advaitha > describes 'reality' in the most consistent and > complete way to > ignorant souls like mine who has not yet experienced > the truth. > > However i have this question to which i could not > find convincing > answers. > > If the experiences of the self are maya and > liberation is when the > self realises the truth, > i ask why is it that the self not born liberated and > why does the > self need to struggle to realise the truth. what is > the need for the > existenece of maya. why does this 'relative' world > exist as is > perceived? > > hoping to read answers to the question, > mahesh. > > > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 ---Dear Mahesh,the question 'why is there anything at all ?'is unanswerable by the rational mind ..Regards Alan . > > it was good reading those replies to my earlier > questions. > > Ashish, > thanks for the reply. In fact i did read Neale's works > and found them quite impressive and genuine. I do > believe in the model of universe that Neale proposes > in his works. However, when it comes to the question > 'why', I find it a little difficult to believe that > the experiences of the self are part of a game that > the self plays with itself. As that raises another > question as to 'why' does the 'self' exist in the > first place. > > with love towards one and all, > Mahesh. > > > > --- Ashish Mahajan <ash.mahajan > wrote: > > Dear Mahesh, > > > > I have recently joined this group because I am > > deeply interested in > > Ramana. I am not a big fan of reading and pondering > > books that have > > been written about him. My experience of him is > > through a simple > > message: "Keep Quiet" (Summa Iru). If you are > > still, the answers may > > come to you. At the very least, your suffering will > > be minimal if you > > can bring your mind to a place of neutrality or > > quietness. His message > > of keep quiet has changed my life from the inside > > out and I can tell you > > that it has saved my life and continues to help me > > every day, and every > > time that I choose to abide by it. > > > > To answer your question about why the self is born > > in maya and why it > > has to suffer, instead of being born fully > > liberated, here is my > > response. Please know that this is where I am at > > today. My > > understanding or lack thereof is here for all to see > > and criticize, and > > that is just fine by me. > > > > There is a series of books out by the name of > > "Conversations with God" > > by Neale Donald Walsch. To me he is not a saint or > > realized person but > > a great messenger. The message from God on this > > issue was stated in the > > following manner (I am paraphrasing, these are not > > the exact words): > > > > In the beginning all there was, was God Itself. God > > is so vast and > > beautiful and powerful, but She had no way to way to > > know how truly vast > > and beautiful and powerful She was. So she created > > an illusion of > > oppositeness (relativity) for a part of herself. > > This small part of God > > now had to experience smallness, ugliness and fear, > > instead of love, > > vastness and power which was the natural state. > > This small part of God > > when immersed in all of the difficulty and the > > illusion of smallness, > > fear, etc (which in Hinduism we call Maya) then > > cried out for help to > > the larger part of its Self and said "Help Me, Save > > Me, please help me > > to get out of this suffering, and help me to be big > > and vast and > > powerful like you". And the little part then merged > > into the big part > > and the Illusion was lifted. Through this > > experience God came to > > appreciate its vastness, its power, its beauty > > experientially, and not > > just intellectually. > > > > If you think about it, if it was daytime all the > > time, we would not > > appreciate the sun as much. It is because of > > nighttime that we > > appreciate the daytime. Without winter we do not > > appreciate summer and > > so on. Therefore the Universe is constantly > > creating and uncreating, > > and this is the Divine Leela or Play: God Having Fun > > in His/Her Sandbox. > > > > So the gist is that you are God, and you took this > > journey into > > Ignorance knowingly so that this in this world of > > relativity (where > > there are opposites) you may live and you may choose > > from what you are > > (which is peace, love, bliss) or what you are not > > (fear, death, > > suffering). But of course you do not experientially > > know that you are > > God, or this whole discussion would not have arisen. > > So now that you > > know this concept that you are God, how will you > > choose to live? Will > > you try to discover for yourself who you truly are, > > and abide in that? > > A few people like Ramana and Eckhart Tolle go > > through a dramatic > > experience where their ego dies and they come out of > > it knowing and > > being only their True Self. Others are born this > > way. But most of us > > have to undo patterns of conditioned thinking and > > behavior that date > > back to our childhood and perhaps lifetimes before, > > if one believes in > > reincarnation. To undo these patterns we need > > intense seeking and the > > help of the Universe, which in Hinduism we call the > > Grace of The Guru. > > So seek on my dear friend and do not get lost in > > arguments of logic. > > This is a journey of the Heart, not of the Mind. > > Your being, your soul, > > your highest self is calling you. Answer the phone > > and drop everything > > else. You are on Fire and you need to douse the > > Fire. Jump into the > > River right now. Do not wait. Do it right now. > > > > Of course this parable is not easy to stomach and I > > might come under > > fire for relating a non-Ramana story on this list. > > But I felt that I > > had to speak. Words are constricting, concepts are > > constricting, and > > the Divine Truth cannot be expressed in our > > primitive languages. > > However, the most eloquent of all is Silence and the > > Divine speaks to > > us, but the question is are we listening? > > > > There are many on this list who will debate things > > like "who is the > > listener, and to whom is the Illusion occurring" > > etc. but the only > > question I pose back to such people is: are you at > > peace 24 hours a day, > > 7 days a week? Until you can show mastery in your > > life, don't just talk > > of ideas. Show me the proof in your life and Lead > > the way through > > example. Until then talk to me of your > > imperfections, and your > > challenges, and be honest about where you are at. > > Don't just pretend to > > be a trader of Ramana-talk. > > > > With love and best wishes to all, > > > > Ashish Mahajan > > > > RamanaMaharshi > > [RamanaMaharshi] > > Sunday, August 24, 2003 5:17 AM > > RamanaMaharshi > > [RamanaMaharshi] Digest Number 1047 > > > > Message: 1 > > Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:53:30 -0000 > > "Mahesh Y" <yellai_mahesh > > questions from an ignorant man > > > > hello all, > > > > i am new to this group and sought membership here > > with the sole > > puprose of seeking answers to questions that have > > been dwelling in my > > mind for some time. > > > > i request members of this group to kindly send > > answers to questions > > that i post here. > > > > Even though my association with the advaitha > > philosophy has been only > > superficial and casual, i began to believe that > > advaitha > > describes 'reality' in the most consistent and > === message truncated === ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? 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