Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dear Bhagavatas: Here is an enlightning article explaining the scientific basis of the Moola Vigraham being in granite. Inputs on the subject based on our authoritative Scriptures are welcome. But, before posting, please make sure that they are not based on conjectures, personal opinions and speculations. Dasoham Moderator ====================================================================== Dear Devotees, I am sending the information sent to me by a fellow devotee of this group about some experiments done with reference to moolavar in granite. The following quote is taken out from ‘Indian Express’ news item published on 31st December, 1981(or 82). This is about the HR and CE stall at the Tourist Trade Fair held at Chennai then. ‘Teachers and students of Parasakthi College, Courtallam, through a set of experiments using laboratory gadgets, make a scientific interpretation of the chanting of slokas, abhisheka of the idol and offering of fruits and leaves. "Temple worship has a definite scientific reasoning behind it", the assistant professor in charge said. First it is explained how there is a proportionate configuration to the sanctum sanctorum and the idol it houses – the sanctorum is structured in such a way that the idol in it reflects any sound wave to the maximum effect. A tuning fork is vibrated in the hall with little sound reproduction, but when it is struck and placed before the entrance of a small model sanctorum, a loud hum is heard. The forks invariably produce a sound resembling the chant "OM". The lecturer explained that among the various chants, "OM" had the largest resonant effect and displaced a sizeable amount of atmosphere inside the sanctum. This is possible only when the sanctum and the idol are made of granite. Next it is explained how the presence of negative ions increases in moist condition rather in dry condition using a condenser to infer why the sanctum sanctorum is always kept moist by pouring water over the idol and washing it with water continuously. Similarly the conduction of the stone idol also increases when it is moist – this is demonstrated by comparing the conductivity of dry granite and that of a wet idol. The materials used for the abhisheka of the idol increases the conductivity of the stone through their own pH values. pH value of a substance is the negative concentration of the ion it possesses. Most of the materials used for abhisheka – milk, curd, sandalpaste, turmeric powder, vermilion powder, vibuthi have high pH values, a simple chemical experiment shows. And when they are pored over the idol they increase the conductivity of the idol, also ionizing it. A resistance reading on the ohmmeter of the idol after these elements have been poured shows the increased conductivity of the idol. The chanting of the mantras and the more frequent "OM" sets the air column inside vibrating and the highly sensitized idol conducts the ions of the abhisheka substance to the moist atmosphere. The lighting of camphor during the deeparadhna displaces the air, which is partially charged with ions, and the devotees inside the sanctum inhale these ions. These negative ions have the physiological function of fixing oxygen with hemoglobin in the blood, the lecturer explained. They are concentrated on beach shores and mountaintops in the early morning, which explains doctor’s advice to heart patients for early morning beach walks. In the final inference, it is explained, a devotee’s presence in the sanctum during abhisheka helps his system induct more negative ions than he usually inhales. A visit to the temple is a good substitute for morning walk, the lecturer explained, and a tonic for good health. But with temples becoming overcrowded, it would not be a wonder if these negative ions are submerged by the excessive carbon dioxide exhaled in the packed sanctum which is meant to house only ten people at a time. Similarly the chanting of "OM" has also been reduced to a mere inaudible mumble, affecting its highly resonant quality." (end of the news report) I think this explains why the sanctum sanctorum is also in granite. The non-use of electric lamps inside garbha griham and thaila-kaapu to moolavar seem to have scientific relevance. I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? Regards, Maya. Mail - Now with 25x more storage than before! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dear Bhagavatas: As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations. Moderator =============================================================================== , Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717> wrote: > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? > Regards, > Maya. Dear member, The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended) scientific justification for idolatry. But it also makes one wonder about another thing. If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s' in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing, all the positive energy the granite is said to generate? Can scientific-minded members please throw some light? Thanks and regards, dAsan, Sudarshan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dear Bhagavatas: The sujbect has been dealt with in Chapter 10 "Descending God" in my book "Hinduism Rediscovered" and explains how we do not worship the image AS God but God IN the image. The statement "simlarly idolatry is not something that even the shastras approve of" is not correct. The very concept of "archaavataara" confirmed by Azhwars and Acharyas prove that it has the sanction of our Scriptures. Dasoham Anbil Ramaswamy =========================================================================== dear members, i just thought to share a few of my views on the subject. none of them are quoted in the shastras, since every generation has to make their own observations as well. 1. please do not use the word 'idol' to refer to statues of our divinities. it is a derogatory word, selectively applied to hinduism, and implies 'blind following', e.g. hritik roshan is a teen idol! 2. it is always christian icons, greek statues, islamic symbolism, but hindu idols. simlarly idolatry is not something that even the shastras approve of! 3. if it is just the granite that is important then why is the form, name and stories of the lord attached to it? it is not just the material that is important. the mental impact on the believer in the mental/physical presence of his/her divine faith is the most powerful factor. this can be achieved in the home puja room at sandhya or during meditation. 4. even a hindu of any denomination or group knows and should know that statues are not worshipped for their material but for their symbolism. a vishnu statue of gold, granite, wood, marble, sketch on paper are all equally important. 5. while my aim is not at all to dampen the scientific discusison over the topic of granite's importance in pH values, i request members to keep in mind that spirituality and devotion don't work so much at the physical level as much as at the mental level. regards, shashi joshi Sudarshan K Madabushi worked magic with the keyboard on Tue, Jul 20, 2004 at 01:22:22PM -0000: > Dear Bhagavatas: > As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations. > Moderator > =============================================================================== > > > , Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717> > wrote: > > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and > the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do > aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? > > Regards, > > Maya. > > > Dear member, > > The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments > described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended) > scientific justification for idolatry. > > But it also makes one wonder about another thing. > > If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms > of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then > perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s' > in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more > overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery > of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the > heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our > temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing, > all the positive energy the granite is said to generate? > > Can scientific-minded members please throw some light? > > Thanks and regards, > > dAsan, > Sudarshan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dear Sudarshan swamy, Following is the text of my response to the originator & also to Srirangasri. I hope it is posted soon. Best regards Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Dear swamies, This article is nothing but a 'super scientific facntasy'. These are dangerous extrapolations of science & will stand no scientific test. E.g., extrapolating this one would be lead to the suggestion that strong acids, such as sulfuric or other, being extremely ionic if they are poured on the granite material the effect would be even pronounced than the weakly acidic substances that are talked about. The effect on haemoglobin will be even better & so on... No one, sane & scientific will ever agree to these kind of arguments. I would request the bhagavatha community to not to indulge in trying to give a scientific reasoning to religious aspects. Let us leave it to lord. U know, he has the powers to create new laws of science. E.g. floating of stone in water in Ramayana. So, the existing laws of science just end in him. To answer the querry, traditionally the vigrahams were carved from special stone which does not contain materials with 'rajasa' and 'thamasa' characters. Only black salagrama stone, which is personification of the Lord himself is to be used for this. It is not granite please.!!. Only the Salagrama stone is religiously acceptable for creating Lord's images. Later, accepting peoples desire of portability for utsavams, Lord has accepted Panchaloha vigrahams to be his abode. I will stop here & leave u to reflect. sajjana padapadma parama renuhu Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002 wrote: Dear Bhagavatas: As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations. Moderator =============================================================================== , Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717> wrote: > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? > Regards, > Maya. Dear member, The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended) scientific justification for idolatry. But it also makes one wonder about another thing. If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s' in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing, all the positive energy the granite is said to generate? Can scientific-minded members please throw some light? Thanks and regards, dAsan, Sudarshan / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Jai Sriman Narayana! The moolavars in other temples may be an idol sujected to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation (archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is beyond these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could analyze Him using physical laws, but we know that He has infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws of physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing and attributing limited things to the limitless. Thanks Narender P. Reddy --- Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002 wrote: > Dear Bhagavatas: > As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be > helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could > be cited in support of the scientific explanations. > Moderator > =============================================================================== > > > , Maya Iyengar > <maya_s1717> > wrote: > > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion > about this and > the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some > temples. What do > aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other > substances? > > Regards, > > Maya. > > > Dear member, > > The forwarded article is very interesting. If the > experiments > described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun > un-intended) > scientific justification for idolatry. > > But it also makes one wonder about another thing. > > If the granite inside the sanctum is so very > important -- in terms > of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity > etc. etc. -- then > perhaps the time has come for us to leave the > 'moolavar-vigraham-s' > in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more > overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of > "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery > of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? > Surely, all the > heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as > in some of our > temples) must be negatively interfering with, why > even diminishing, > all the positive energy the granite is said to > generate? > > Can scientific-minded members please throw some > light? > > Thanks and regards, > > dAsan, > Sudarshan > > > Vote for the stars of 's next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.//votelifeengine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dr. Narender Reddy : Thanks for your suggestion to stay away from "attributing limited things to limitless ". Archai (Consecrated images are some thing unique . Like the Lord's AvathAra Rahsyams (Six points ) have to be understood properly so that we do not go astray , the power of Consecrated Moorthys at the temple have to be disengaged from the material in which the Lord has descended . It has been said that the Cow possessing milk in all its limbs releases the nourishing milk thru its udders only . So does the consecrated Moorthys release BhagavAn's saannidhyam and KaaruNyam to those who seek refuge thru the Moola and Uthsava BhErams created by Rishis (Aarsham ) , the Lord (Svyam Vyaktham ), humans (Maabusham ) and DEvAs for worship - The SaaLagrama Moola BhErams as at SrIrangam , ThiruveLLUr are yet another unique forms , where the SaaLagramams themselves are pervaded by SrIman NaarAyaNan . Once we think of Ph and other things , we will be way out of track . There are however rigorous prescriptions for selection of the granite or metal or wood , which are known to the Sthapathis and Aagama experts. V.Sadagopan - "Narender Reddy" <reddynp "Sudarshan K Madabushi" <mksudarshan2002; <> Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:13 PM Re: Re: Moolavar > Jai Sriman Narayana! > > The moolavars in other temples may be an idol sujected > to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola > Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation > (archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is beyond > these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could analyze > Him using physical laws, but we know that He has > infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws of > physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing and > attributing limited things to the limitless. > > Thanks > Narender P. Reddy > > > > --- Sudarshan K Madabushi > <mksudarshan2002 wrote: > > Dear Bhagavatas: > > As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be > > helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could > > be cited in support of the scientific explanations. > > Moderator > > > ============================================================================ === > > > > > > , Maya Iyengar > > <maya_s1717> > > wrote: > > > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion > > about this and > > the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some > > temples. What do > > aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other > > substances? > > > Regards, > > > Maya. > > > > > > Dear member, > > > > The forwarded article is very interesting. If the > > experiments > > described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun > > un-intended) > > scientific justification for idolatry. > > > > But it also makes one wonder about another thing. > > > > If the granite inside the sanctum is so very > > important -- in terms > > of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity > > etc. etc. -- then > > perhaps the time has come for us to leave the > > 'moolavar-vigraham-s' > > in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more > > overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of > > "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery > > of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? > > Surely, all the > > heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as > > in some of our > > temples) must be negatively interfering with, why > > even diminishing, > > all the positive energy the granite is said to > > generate? > > > > Can scientific-minded members please throw some > > light? > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > dAsan, > > Sudarshan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vote for the stars of 's next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.//votelifeengine/ > > > > > > Links > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 AdarNiya rAmaswAmI ji, all i wanted to convey is that the word 'idolatry' implies worshipping an idol, whereas we all know that when we offer flowers, chandan or dhUp to the "idol" we are offering it to the lord, and not to the statue per se. but the word 'idolatry' doesn't imply and hence has been used as a beating stick against hinduism, reducing it to a superstitious following that worships stones and "idols". that is all wanted to convey, that we should use the word icon, statue or even "mUrtI" rather than idol. we should all consciously avoid the word 'idol', whether it is in discussion groups or in temples where signs are seen "please don't touch the idol" (at least in usa) at no point i am suggesting that using the mUrtI as an aid to meditate upon the lord is unapproved or not good. regards, shashi joshi > Dear Bhagavatas: > The sujbect has been dealt with in Chapter 10 "Descending God" in my book > "Hinduism Rediscovered" and explains how we do not worship the image AS God but God IN the image. > > The statement "simlarly idolatry is not something that even the shastras > approve of" is not correct. The very concept of "archaavataara" > confirmed by Azhwars and Acharyas prove that it has the sanction of our Scriptures. > > Dasoham > Anbil Ramaswamy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 reddy jI, limited things have been attributed to the limiteless, the moment we have a tmeple, mUrtI, ritual, name etc. in one of the lectures late professor joseph campbell (who has perhaps done the most to impart awareness about indian philosphy in the west (particularly usa) says about kAlI stepping on shiva as a symbol of going beyond the highest faith. our god is our highest faith, and hence is also our limit. in other religions, their only book is the limit. in sanAtan dharma, we have many enlightened seers adding to the ocean of 'human discovery' of the divine. our limit is not set!! as long as we have the shraddhA bhAva, we should be open enough to discuss anything with respect towards each other (and the divine) so, i think discussion of the physical aspects of the temple, mUrtI etc. should not be taken as an affront to our faith. after all, someone did prescribe the protocl to setup a temple, using certain material, ritual, etc. they must have had a reason beyond faith as well. so if a member wants to be enlightened in that area, we should let the discusison go on (of course the moderator(s) are the final judge of it). so, as long as the shraddhA bhAva is there, we should not feel our faith is in danger! after all, every devotee is also unique :-) regards, shashi joshi Sadagopan worked magic with the keyboard on Tue, Jul 20, 2004 at 05:54:58PM -0400: > Dr. Narender Reddy : > > Thanks for your suggestion to stay > away from "attributing limited things > to limitless ". > > Archai (Consecrated images are some thing > unique . Like the Lord's AvathAra Rahsyams > (Six points ) have to be understood properly > so that we do not go astray , the power of > Consecrated Moorthys at the temple have to be > disengaged from the material in which the Lord > has descended . > > Once we think of Ph and other things , we > will be way out of track . There are however > rigorous prescriptions for selection of the granite > or metal or wood , which are known to the Sthapathis > and Aagama experts. > > V.Sadagopan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Priya Bhagawatas, It is a big apachaaram (sin) to even to think (leave alone discussion) of the physical constituents of moolavar of consecrated dieties. It amounts to discussion regarding the flesh, blood, bones, skin, height, weight etc w.r.t. our beloveds like father, mother, husband/wife, children, etc. Our Moola archamurthys are the embodiments of the diety with all the kalyanagunas like souseelya, soundarya, soukumarya, saugandhya, lavanya, yauvana, anaadi, veerya, teja etc etc as described in the Trigadyas of Bhagawad Ramanuja. Jai Srimannarayana sarvaaparaadham kshantavyaha Dr.Kilambi Ramakrishna Ramanuja Dasan Maya Iyengar wrote: > Dear Bhagavatas: > Here is an enlightning article explaining the scientific basis of the Moola Vigraham being in granite. > > Inputs on the subject based on our authoritative Scriptures are welcome. > > But, before posting, please make sure that they are not based on conjectures, personal opinions and speculations. > Dasoham > Moderator > ================================================================================\ =========================================================== > Dear Devotees, > > I am sending the information sent to me by a fellow devotee of this group about some experiments done with reference to moolavar in granite. The following quote is taken out from ‘Indian Express’ news item published on 31st December, 1981(or 82). > > This is about the HR and CE stall at the Tourist Trade Fair held at Chennai then. > > ‘Teachers and students of Parasakthi College, Courtallam, through a set of experiments using laboratory gadgets, make a scientific interpretation of the chanting of slokas, abhisheka of the idol and offering of fruits and leaves. "Temple worship has a definite scientific reasoning behind it", the assistant professor in charge said. > > First it is explained how there is a proportionate configuration to the sanctum sanctorum and the idol it houses – the sanctorum is structured in such a way that the idol in it reflects any sound wave to the maximum effect. > > A tuning fork is vibrated in the hall with little sound reproduction, but when it is struck and placed before the entrance of a small model sanctorum, a loud hum is heard. The forks invariably produce a sound resembling the chant "OM". > > The lecturer explained that among the various chants, "OM" had the largest resonant effect and displaced a sizeable amount of atmosphere inside the sanctum. This is possible only when the sanctum and the idol are made of granite. > > Next it is explained how the presence of negative ions increases in moist condition rather in dry condition using a condenser to infer why the sanctum sanctorum is always kept moist by pouring water over the idol and washing it with water continuously. Similarly the conduction of the stone idol also increases when it is moist – this is demonstrated by comparing the conductivity of dry granite and that of a wet idol. > > The materials used for the abhisheka of the idol increases the conductivity of the stone through their own pH values. pH value of a substance is the negative concentration of the ion it possesses. Most of the materials used for abhisheka – milk, curd, sandalpaste, turmeric powder, vermilion powder, vibuthi have high pH values, a simple chemical experiment shows. And when they are pored over the idol they increase the conductivity of the idol, also ionizing it. > > A resistance reading on the ohmmeter of the idol after these elements have been poured shows the increased conductivity of the idol. The chanting of the mantras and the more frequent "OM" sets the air column inside vibrating and the highly sensitized idol conducts the ions of the abhisheka substance to the moist atmosphere. > > The lighting of camphor during the deeparadhna displaces the air, which is partially charged with ions, and the devotees inside the sanctum inhale these ions. These negative ions have the physiological function of fixing oxygen with hemoglobin in the blood, the lecturer explained. They are concentrated on beach shores and mountaintops in the early morning, which explains doctor’s advice to heart patients for early morning beach walks. > > In the final inference, it is explained, a devotee’s presence in the sanctum during abhisheka helps his system induct more negative ions than he usually inhales. A visit to the temple is a good substitute for morning walk, the lecturer explained, and a tonic for good health. > > But with temples becoming overcrowded, it would not be a wonder if these negative ions are submerged by the excessive carbon dioxide exhaled in the packed sanctum which is meant to house only ten people at a time. Similarly the chanting of "OM" has also been reduced to a mere inaudible mumble, affecting its highly resonant quality." > > (end of the news report) > > I think this explains why the sanctum sanctorum is also in granite. The non-use of > > electric lamps inside garbha griham and thaila-kaapu to moolavar seem to have scientific relevance. > > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? > > Regards, > > Maya. > > > > > Mail - Now with 25x more storage than before! > > > > > > Links > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Dear Sri Reddy, While I certainly respect the view expressed -- that one cannot always apply laws of physics to temple iconography and worship -- I'm sorry I'm unable to see the connection you seek to make between mere discussion of the matter and "sin". It's a complete 'non sequitor', I should think. Mere mention of "sin" or "apachAram" is enough to scare away all discussion and exchange of views even when sparked (as in this case) by academic curiosity on the part of members and their need to learn from each other through our forum. Don't you agree, Sir, it would be far better to just objectively state the case, either for or against, a particular issue (by quoting "pramANam", references, expert reports etc) and leave the members to make their own judgment? Why frighten participants with 'sin' and holy retribution when all they are seeking is ordinary answers to ordinary questions? Yours respectfully, dAsan, Sudarshan --- Sadagopan <sgopan wrote: > Dr. Narender Reddy : > > Thanks for your suggestion to stay > away from "attributing limited things > to limitless ". > > Archai (Consecrated images are some thing > unique . Like the Lord's AvathAra Rahsyams > (Six points ) have to be understood properly > so that we do not go astray , the power of > Consecrated Moorthys at the temple have to be > disengaged from the material in which the Lord > has descended . > > It has been said that the Cow possessing > milk in all its limbs releases the nourishing > milk thru its udders only . So does the consecrated > Moorthys release BhagavAn's saannidhyam > and KaaruNyam to those who seek refuge > thru the Moola and Uthsava BhErams created > by Rishis (Aarsham ) , the Lord (Svyam Vyaktham ), > humans (Maabusham ) and DEvAs for worship - > The SaaLagrama Moola BhErams as at SrIrangam , > ThiruveLLUr are yet another unique forms , > where the SaaLagramams themselves are > pervaded by SrIman NaarAyaNan . > > Once we think of Ph and other things , we > will be way out of track . There are however > rigorous prescriptions for selection of the granite > or metal or wood , which are known to the Sthapathis > and Aagama experts. > > V.Sadagopan > - > "Narender Reddy" <reddynp > "Sudarshan K Madabushi" > <mksudarshan2002; > <> > Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:13 PM > Re: Re: Moolavar > > > > Jai Sriman Narayana! > > > > The moolavars in other temples may be an idol > sujected > > to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola > > Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation > > (archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is > beyond > > these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could > analyze > > Him using physical laws, but we know that He has > > infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws > of > > physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing > and > > attributing limited things to the limitless. > > > > Thanks > > Narender P. Reddy > > > > > > > > --- Sudarshan K Madabushi > > <mksudarshan2002 wrote: > > > Dear Bhagavatas: > > > As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be > > > helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures > could > > > be cited in support of the scientific > explanations. > > > Moderator > > > > > > ============================================================================ > === > > > > > > > > > , Maya Iyengar > > > <maya_s1717> > > > wrote: > > > > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their > opinion > > > about this and > > > the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in > some > > > temples. What do > > > aagamaas say about the choice of granite and > other > > > substances? > > > > Regards, > > > > Maya. > > > > > > > > > Dear member, > > > > > > The forwarded article is very interesting. If > the > > > experiments > > > described are true, we now have at hand a sound > (pun > > > un-intended) > > > scientific justification for idolatry. > > > > > > But it also makes one wonder about another > thing. > > > > > > If the granite inside the sanctum is so very > > > important -- in terms > > > of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' > conductivity > > > etc. etc. -- then > > > perhaps the time has come for us to leave the > > > 'moolavar-vigraham-s' > > > in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more > > > overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of > > > "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery > > > of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? > > > Surely, all the > > > heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot > as > > > in some of our > > > temples) must be negatively interfering with, > why > > > even diminishing, > > > all the positive energy the granite is said to > > > generate? > > > > > > Can scientific-minded members please throw some > > > light? > > > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > > > dAsan, > > > Sudarshan ______________________ India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://.naukri.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha: Absolutely right. The Lord Emperuman Narayanan cannot be bound by the physical laws however deep they may be. He is beyond mere physical verification in any form. He revals Himself by His Grace alone. The essence of Vedas is this alone. Jai Sriman Narayana, Adiyen, Ramanuja Dasan >Narender Reddy <reddynp >Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002, > >Re: Re: Moolavar >Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:13:16 -0700 (PDT) > >Jai Sriman Narayana! > >The moolavars in other temples may be an idol sujected >to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola >Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation >(archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is beyond >these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could analyze >Him using physical laws, but we know that He has >infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws of >physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing and >attributing limited things to the limitless. > >Thanks >Narender P. Reddy > > > _______________ Marriage? http://www.bharatmatrimony.com/cgi-bin/bmclicks1.cgi?74 Join BharatMatrimony.com for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Dear Bhagawatas: Please forgive me and ignore the following if my view is wrong, I don’t want to hurt anyone. Please take it as view of some one. This is my comment or view in response to the enlightening article on Moolavar. Please forgive me for the way of writing… There is no need of science, when you listen to music, when you kiss your child or sitting in a rose garden and enjoying the beauty of the rose. Certainly we don’t have to bring science here. A group of scientist liked the music and they want to see the music, and had to dissect the music instrument, musician body and as usual the scientists beautifully described their discovery: our study indicates that wood, metal string, skin, bone flesh and blood are the components of music. The physical dimensions of all the components are given in Table 1, in case of all the biological material taken from the musician DNA sequence information to all possible scientific analysis is done and summarized in Table 2. The result presented in this study demonstrates that in music formation, human tissues and remaining does not contribute to music formation investigated to any greater extent. However our results might not reflect the actual music configurations in vivo a detail study required in order to see the actual music. Similarly to see the beauty of a Rose the Rose needs to be dissected and all the dimensions, origins, DNA, RNA, extraction analysis of individual components of Rose may be found as written in any botanical encyclopedia but you will eventually loose the beauty of the flower you have to kill the rose to learn its science, you have to destroy or kill the musician or instrument to learn how the music is formed. The best thing ever said about a Rose is, A Rose is a rose is rose… Please don’t say anything more than that then it is absolutely not the rose it is about the rose family, property, chemical structure of the active ingredients and so on... Please note Moolavar is also made in various materials where they don’t perform thriumanjanam (no water is put) and it is not made by granite or any kind of stone it is mixture of various materials such as kadukai, I don’t want to say or remember and no need to know also. Moolvar is there in totality just enjoy the beauty of Moolavar and perform what you have been asked to perform or follow the procedures followed by the saints. Scientific knowledge is absolutely required in many areas, and not required in some fields. There are 1000000000 topics could be found to do scientific research but one must select the relevant to help the society, there is no need to do research on topics such as chicken came first or egg came first ? my answer is god came first. Both are there just enjoy the beauty without disturbing them, absolutely not necessary to do research on such topics By trying to measure the constituents of moolavar you and trying to give some scientific explanation for what you find and we will not see the god and we will not see the music and we will not find beauty of the rose. Similarly when you kiss your child just kiss don’t bring science here, the scientist will tell you so many germs you will transmit and infect the child and so on… not necessary to do research on this topic just kiss and enjoy, just enjoy the Moolavar dharsan. There is no need of pH meters, mass spectrometers, X-ray and crystallographic studies required in deities. My sincere apologize if I hurt any one’s feelings are thoughts. Today when I was performing the Adi Pooram Poojai at home “ my 5 year old son Vaisnav asked me what is so special today? I told him today is the birthday of this goddess, he replied me oh cool, how old is she??? And I had no answer and blanked out for a minute, then told him she is as old as the earth. Sri Andal Thiruvadigaley Saranam. Gajaraj New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Dear Bhagawatas: Please forgive me and ignore the following if my view is wrong, I don’t want to hurt anyone. Please take it as view of some one. This is my comment or view in response to the enlightening article on Moolavar. Please forgive me for the way of writing… There is no need of science, when you listen to music, when you kiss your child or sitting in a rose garden and enjoying the beauty of the rose. Certainly we don’t have to bring science here. A group of scientist liked the music and they want to see the music, and had to dissect the music instrument, musician body and as usual the scientists beautifully described their discovery: our study indicates that wood, metal string, skin, bone flesh and blood are the components of music. The physical dimensions of all the components are given in Table 1, in case of all the biological material taken from the musician DNA sequence information to all possible scientific analysis is done and summarized in Table 2. The result presented in this study demonstrates that in music formation, human tissues and remaining does not contribute to music formation investigated to any greater extent. However our results might not reflect the actual music configurations in vivo a detail study required in order to see the actual music. Similarly to see the beauty of a Rose the Rose needs to be dissected and all the dimensions, origins, DNA, RNA, extraction analysis of individual components of Rose may be found as written in any botanical encyclopedia but you will eventually loose the beauty of the flower you have to kill the rose to learn its science, you have to destroy or kill the musician or instrument to learn how the music is formed. The best thing ever said about a Rose is, A Rose is a rose is rose… Please don’t say anything more than that then it is absolutely not the rose it is about the rose family, property, chemical structure of the active ingredients and so on... Please note Moolavar is also made in various materials where they don’t perform thriumanjanam (no water is put) and it is not made by granite or any kind of stone it is mixture of various materials such as kadukai, I don’t want to say or remember and no need to know also. Moolvar is there in totality just enjoy the beauty of Moolavar and perform what you have been asked to perform or follow the procedures followed by the saints. Scientific knowledge is absolutely required in many areas, and not required in some fields. There are 1000000000 topics could be found to do scientific research but one must select the relevant to help the society, there is no need to do research on topics such as chicken came first or egg came first ? my answer is god came first. Both are there just enjoy the beauty without disturbing them, absolutely not necessary to do research on such topics By trying to measure the constituents of moolavar you and trying to give some scientific explanation for what you find and we will not see the god and we will not see the music and we will not find beauty of the rose. Similarly when you kiss your child just kiss don’t bring science here, the scientist will tell you so many germs you will transmit and infect the child and so on… not necessary to do research on this topic just kiss and enjoy, just enjoy the Moolavar dharsan. There is no need of pH meters, mass spectrometers, X-ray and crystallographic studies required in deities. My sincere apologize if I hurt any one’s feelings are thoughts. Today when I was performing the Adi Pooram Poojai at home “ my 5 year old son Vaisnav asked me what is so special today? I told him today is the birthday of this goddess, he replied me oh cool, how old is she??? And I had no answer and blanked out for a minute, then told him she is as old as the earth. Sri Andal Thiruvadigaley Saranam. Gajaraj New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Dear Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan: I was restraining myself from expressing my adverse criticism of the false "scientific claim" on this subject. I am glad that you came out strong with your views to fuel my response. It is laughable that some people fabricated weird experiments to reach these conclusions that do not even merit scientific scrutiny. Words thrown away loose as alkaline pH, ions, oxygen fixation in hemoglobin and evoking laws of Physics and acoustics as support are hollow and meaningless that do not belong to the Class of . Further, I would echo the sentiments of eminent scholars like Sriman Ramanuja Varadha Srinivasa Thatta, Narander Reddy, Sadagopan and others who have explained this subject elegantly in this journal. I would also reiterate that usage of English term Idolatry is profanity that should be dismissed in our usage to denote Hindu methods of worship. The principle behind Archa moorthy and Vigraha aradhana in our religion has no English equivalent, but I can tolerate the term iconic to denote our form of worship. All religions are full of symbolism in their practice whether it is Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc. We are no different in our approach to envision God whose form is limitless and nondescript in images of Avataram revealed to us by Him. Adiyen Srinivasa Raghavan narsimhan csl <cslnarsimhan wrote: Dear Sudarshan swamy, Following is the text of my response to the originator & also to Srirangasri. I hope it is posted soon. Best regards Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Dear swamies, This article is nothing but a 'super scientific facntasy'. These are dangerous extrapolations of science & will stand no scientific test. E.g., extrapolating this one would be lead to the suggestion that strong acids, such as sulfuric or other, being extremely ionic if they are poured on the granite material the effect would be even pronounced than the weakly acidic substances that are talked about. The effect on haemoglobin will be even better & so on... No one, sane & scientific will ever agree to these kind of arguments. I would request the bhagavatha community to not to indulge in trying to give a scientific reasoning to religious aspects. Let us leave it to lord. U know, he has the powers to create new laws of science. E.g. floating of stone in water in Ramayana. So, the existing laws of science just end in him. To answer the querry, traditionally the vigrahams were carved from special stone which does not contain materials with 'rajasa' and 'thamasa' characters. Only black salagrama stone, which is personification of the Lord himself is to be used for this. It is not granite please.!!. Only the Salagrama stone is religiously acceptable for creating Lord's images. Later, accepting peoples desire of portability for utsavams, Lord has accepted Panchaloha vigrahams to be his abode. I will stop here & leave u to reflect. sajjana padapadma parama renuhu Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Sudarshan K Madabushi wrote: Dear Bhagavatas: As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations. Moderator =============================================================================== , Maya Iyengar wrote: > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? > Regards, > Maya. Dear member, The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended) scientific justification for idolatry. But it also makes one wonder about another thing. If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s' in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing, all the positive energy the granite is said to generate? Can scientific-minded members please throw some light? Thanks and regards, dAsan, Sudarshan / Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 --- shashi <shashi wrote: > dear all, .. since then one sees the lord everywhere! the > external symbols are useless to that elevated soul >who is beyond mAyA. The Sri Vigraha or the Archa Moorthy is not a symbol but an incarnation of Lord Sriman Narayana. > the vedas don't even have the pUjA in the way >rituals have developed later on in the purAnic era. In Sri Vaishnavas, we donot have rituals, we perform Aradhanam or loving service (kainakryam) performed tro the Lord. The word ritual denotes mechanical performance, where as we perform loving service to Lord Sriman Narayana. While ritual is like work, loving service is not. The mother dressing her baby does not consider a ritual or wok. Yes, Aradhanam has been existing from time immemorial. Bimba Arashanam has been discussed in Vedas. > that said, what is so objectionable if a devotee in > the realm of > mAyA wants to comprehend the mAyA as per one's > capacity. after all, > the 'material' aspects of the lord has to dealt with > by someone, > since someone has to make the temple, choose the > material, the divine form in certain way (reclining, > standing,with chakra etc.) We do not need to invent any new forms. The Agama Sastras (Pancharathra and Vaikanasa) are the instructions of Lord Sriman Narayana, and prescribe the way the bimba moorthy has to be made, and conscreted. Agmas have been reveled by Lord Sriman Narayana Himself. For example, the PancharAthra Agma has been revealed by Lord Sriman Narayana to Bramha Deva in five nights and therefore, it is claled pancha rAthra Agama. >so someone has to attribute the limited to the > limitless. As revealed in Srimath Bagavad Githa, if you assume that He (Archa Moorthy) is limited, He will display only very limited power and grant us only limted knowledge. > instead of closing the discusison even before it > starts, it would > do much service if the learned direct it properly, > rather than > shutting it off with words of 'sin' and 'outsiders' > and 'beyond > laws'. even the lord is bound by the laws of karma! > he could not > save jaya and vijaya from the curse of sanatkumar, > who then ended > up as the three most evil pairs - > hiraNyakashyapa/hiraNyAksha, > rAvaNa/kumbhakaraNa, etc. Lord Sriman Narayana is not bound by karma. In Srimath Bhagavtham, it is very clear that He only has decided on the punishment to Jaya and Vijaya as they out of ahankara once tried to obstruct Sri lakshmi Devi to approach Him. If you are interested I can quote the shloka. > whatever mAyA he creates, has its own laws, which we > are all trying > to study in the field of sciences. if the lord has > different laws > of physics, the people with questions are simply > saying, does anyone > know them, can they be told as well, is there any > scientific basis Your scintiifc laws can not even predict events in the future. The tools of science can detect only the parameters (based on indriyas such as pressure, force, temperature, chemical species (smell and taste), elctrical currents (nerve inputs), direction, motion, velocity and acceleratio etc). Our Purnas say that He is beyond the indriyas. Those who do not beleive in the puranas are therefore definitely called outsiders. The real scientific basis would be to first practice (experiment)what is told in the purnas and observe if that is correct. For that you should have the correct knowledge (interpretation of Sadacharya). > even the discussion in the shAstra, the symbolism in > rAmAyaNa and > other epics and purANa are powerful application of > the science of > psychology, sociology and spirituality applied in > the unique indian > way. never has the lord worked in irrational ways, > or unreasonably. > if there is reason to his actions, there is method > of his functioning. Puranas reveal that His actions and functioning are divyam and therfore can not be understood by men. > while there are different levels of mental capacity > and spiritual > progress, and not all discussions of jnAna are for > the followers > of bhakti, it would be so much more appropriate if > it was said, > 'this discussion is beyond the scope of the bhakti > oriented group. For your kind information, puranas reveal that Knowledge (gnyana) and renounciation (Vairagya) are the angas (organs) of bhakthi. As revealed by puranas, real knowldge leads to saranagathi or bhakthi > i hope i have not offended too many people! i am a > silent listener > most of the time anyways. so try not to be upset for > too long :-) > > thanks, > shashi joshi > Jai Sriman Narayana! Narender Reddy .. Mail is new and improved - Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 --- "Dr.Gajaraj" <gajarajk wrote: > Dear Bhagawatas: > There is no need of science, when you listen to > music,> when you kiss your child or sitting in a rose garden> and enjoying the beauty of the rose. Certainly we> don’t have to bring science here. > Dear Dr Gajaraj, Well said! Rgds, dAsan, Sudarshan ______________________ India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://.naukri.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Dear Srinivasa Raghavan swamy, Thanks for this nice views. These are important for people who want to understand our religion more. I would request sri Anbil swamy , the moderator of SRS site to not allow such dangerous mails for posting because these some times can have misleading and dangerous impact on some of the readers. I agree with u too that Idol worship or iconoclasm are rather lose terms and, as u said, have limited connotations and do not really describe our cult as such. We r living with these expressions or words so to say. sajjana pada padma paramanuhu Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Srini Raghavan <sraghav wrote: Dear Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan: I was restraining myself from expressing my adverse criticism of the false "scientific claim" on this subject. I am glad that you came out strong with your views to fuel my response. It is laughable that some people fabricated weird experiments to reach these conclusions that do not even merit scientific scrutiny. Words thrown away loose as alkaline pH, ions, oxygen fixation in hemoglobin and evoking laws of Physics and acoustics as support are hollow and meaningless that do not belong to the Class of . Further, I would echo the sentiments of eminent scholars like Sriman Ramanuja Varadha Srinivasa Thatta, Narander Reddy, Sadagopan and others who have explained this subject elegantly in this journal. I would also reiterate that usage of English term Idolatry is profanity that should be dismissed in our usage to denote Hindu methods of worship. The principle behind Archa moorthy and Vigraha aradhana in our religion has no English equivalent, but I can tolerate the term iconoclastic to denote our form of worship. All religions are full of symbolism in their practice whether it is Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc. We are no different in our approach to envision God whose form is limitless and nondescript in images of Avataram revealed to us by Him. Adiyen Srinivasa Raghavan narsimhan csl <cslnarsimhan wrote: Dear Sudarshan swamy, Following is the text of my response to the originator & also to Srirangasri. I hope it is posted soon. Best regards Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Dear swamies, This article is nothing but a 'super scientific facntasy'. These are dangerous extrapolations of science & will stand no scientific test. E.g., extrapolating this one would be lead to the suggestion that strong acids, such as sulfuric or other, being extremely ionic if they are poured on the granite material the effect would be even pronounced than the weakly acidic substances that are talked about. The effect on haemoglobin will be even better & so on... No one, sane & scientific will ever agree to these kind of arguments. I would request the bhagavatha community to not to indulge in trying to give a scientific reasoning to religious aspects. Let us leave it to lord. U know, he has the powers to create new laws of science. E.g. floating of stone in water in Ramayana. So, the existing laws of science just end in him. To answer the querry, traditionally the vigrahams were carved from special stone which does not contain materials with 'rajasa' and 'thamasa' characters. Only black salagrama stone, which is personification of the Lord himself is to be used for this. It is not granite please.!!. Only the Salagrama stone is religiously acceptable for creating Lord's images. Later, accepting peoples desire of portability for utsavams, Lord has accepted Panchaloha vigrahams to be his abode. I will stop here & leave u to reflect. sajjana padapadma parama renuhu Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Sudarshan K Madabushi wrote: Dear Bhagavatas: As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations. Moderator =============================================================================== , Maya Iyengar wrote: > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? > Regards, > Maya. Dear member, The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended) scientific justification for idolatry. But it also makes one wonder about another thing. If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s' in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing, all the positive energy the granite is said to generate? Can scientific-minded members please throw some light? Thanks and regards, dAsan, Sudarshan / Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. Vote for the stars of 's next ad campaign! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 --- "Dr.Gajaraj" <gajarajk wrote: > Dear Bhagawatas: > There is no need of science, when you listen to > music,> when you kiss your child or sitting in a rose garden> and enjoying the beauty of the rose. Certainly we> don’t have to bring science here. > Dear Dr Gajaraj, Well said! Rgds, dAsan, Sudarshan ______________________ India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://.naukri.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha: If you think the Vigraham is only a symbol the go ahead and do all kinds of experiments. But we are not supposed to think that the Vigraham is the symbolic representation of Emperuman. Also Maya does not mean a phenomenon which also obeys a set of laws which are verifiable. It means by definition the inconceivable power of the Lord. If it obeys a set of laws then, it is known only to the Lord. It cannot be verified by any other soul. If in Particle Physics there is a limitation like the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle inbuilt in the physical way we try to enquire into matter and materiel phenomena, then the nature of soul, super soul and Maya cannot be inquired into, using physical tools. These tools are totally anadequate. Vigraha Aradhanam is not mere physical exercise; it is a mental and supra mental effort by the soul to crave and seek the Grace of the Lord. I draw attention here to the article writtten by Sriman M.K Sudersan about the souls being Stree by nature. Sthreetwam is attributed to souls not in physical manner. By nature they are totally dependent on Paramathma for everything and hence the sthreethwam. If we cannot know the gender of a foetus up till the 3rd month of pregnency, it does not mean it is sthree in nature. The mere absence or non-formation of organs of reproduction, does not mean that the foetus is feminine in nature. It can be argued that it is neither masculine, nor feminine. (On another plane "Na Puman, Nasthree, Nashandobo" is how the Paramathman is described in the Upanishads). The DNA code is alive and working all the time and the gender is predetermined at the very first moment of the foetal formation. Maybe even before as the Hindu Philosophy says. If we cannot even understand fully the Trigunathmaka Prakriti which follows a set of laws laid by the creator (which He Himself sometimes obeys when He is present as a person) using the same set of laws, how can we enquire into the nature of the Lord who is inconceivable according to our Vedas (and His powers). Adiiyen, Ramanuja Dasan. >shashi >, Oppiliappan >CC: Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002, Narender Reddy ><reddynp, Sgt <saranagathi> >Re: Re: Moolavar >Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:48:08 -0400 > >reddy jI, >limited things have been attributed to the limiteless, the moment >we have a tmeple, mUrtI, ritual, name etc. > >in one of the lectures late professor joseph campbell (who has >perhaps done the most to impart awareness about indian philosphy >in the west (particularly usa) says about kAlI stepping on shiva >as a symbol of going beyond the highest faith. > > _______________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Dear SrImathi Maya Iyengar: Please do not be hurt over the exchanges relating to your mail on your impassioned plea for using the tools of science in an effort to comprehend the intricacies of ArchA Moorthy ( Consecrated Forms , where the Lord resides for accepting our AarAdhanam). I am a scientist by training and have a Doctor's degree from the top most Scientific& Engineering University , Massachusetts Institue Of Technology (MIT) . Many Members of the list are Medical Doctors and Technical Professionals . All of us have high regard to Science and its tools to open up new frontiers for saving lives and reduce suffering and to travel to far off planets and their Moons . Many of us , call ourselves rationalists or traditonalists do not believe Science as a tool can be of much help in spiritual matters. Faith takes over , where Science is unable to help . There is no irreconceilable conflict between science and Religion (Knowledge and belief ). They are not irreconceilable antagonists as stated by Einstein . He says further: " A religious person is devout in the sense that he or she has no doubt about the significance and loftiness of specific super-personal objects and goals , which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation " ( in a scientific sense) . The devout are steeped in Mahaa Viswasam about the Lord's rakshakathvam and are like children crossing a road holding firmly the hands of its Father . They have implicit and total faith in the protective capability of the Lord(Father) and are not looking for a rational explanation to convince themselves as to why and how the Lord is their protector (Rakshakan ). After many births , they hold on to the Lord's sacred feet and recognize that they have no recourse except the Lord and the Lord does not dare to shake the firm grip of the devout . These feeling states are beyond analysis by scientific methods or tools. That is the way it is ! This is not to say that the role of Science in Vedic way of life is minimal or nonexistent . The VedAs and Upanishads accept and celebrate the Lord as the source of all knowledge. Inspired by the Vedic Texts , the Rishis of Vedic age " developed their positive sciences and made the world worth while to live in with comforts and purposefulness". The rotations and revolutions of earth , planets and Sun (astronomy ) were developed by the likes of Aryabhatta et al. The concept of Zero( Kham), the reciprocal of Infinity and Mathematical Infinity were developed form here ." Besides Mathematical infinity , God Himself was recognized as the Infinite Unity ". The Science of Vedic geometry arose from Vedic Rishis . There are references to all kinds of mechanical systems in VedAs (Mechanical Engineering) . The healing powers of herbs against specific diseases ( the science of Pharmacology ) has been recorded in Atharva Vedam in great detail. The dangers of Tuberclosis and its cure has been covered in several hymns of Atarva Vedam . The world of herbs (Botany ) and animals ( Zoology) are covered again in VedAs . One can go on and on about physical sciences . But the Vedic rishis had some thing beyond the physical sciences and developed AdhyAthmika Saasthrams dealing with the metaphysical tatthvams of the indissoluble kinship between the Lord of the Universe and the Jeevans , which are both co-eternal. Science ravels along and soon is confounded by its own limits . We travel with science and come to the stage , where we seek more answers and insights that Science can not give. Our sights are lifted , our hearts are thrilled and we bask under the warmth of the wisdom of the Rg Vedic manthram ( X. 121.5): " By Him , the heavens are strong and the earth is steadfast ; by HIm light's realm and sky-vault are supported ; By Him the regions in the mid-air are measured . To that Lord alone , May we offer our adoration " . The concept of ananya gathithvam , Aakinchnyam , SaraNAgathy arose from such insights . If the physical Scientists are blessed to have the initiation into the AdhyAthmic Science under the tutelage of a SadAchAryan , they are doubly gifted indeed . One does not need however to be trained in Scientific disciplines to derive the full benefit of AdhyAthmic Science . Just Some Thoughts in passing ! NamO NaarAyaNAya , V.Sadagopan - Maya Iyengar sarathys (AT) comcast (DOT) net ; jayasartn ; kdevanathan (AT) hotmail (DOT) com ; mksudarshan2002 (AT) (DOT) co.in ; Vijaya Raghavan ; s.ramachandran (AT) hdfcbank (DOT) com ; Sadagopan ; ramachandran soundararajan ; Friday, July 23, 2004 5:17 AM Fwd: Moolavar Dear devotees, I was shocked beyond belief to see the responses to the report quoted from Indian express on moolavar and the complete black-out of the mail I sent as a sequel to . When I came to know that relevance has been attached to the shila roopam, the materials used for abhishekam etc, I was over-awed how every aspect in our tradition has evolved with such rich meaning. With this thought when I look around it is that "Kaangindra porulellam yaane ennum….". As I look into my Human physiology book, every aspect tallies with the upanishad statement that this body of ours is the shareeram for brahman and it is he who controls it as the sarathy. The descent of 11 out of 12 cranial nerves upto heart (only) and the remaining one coming to the stomach looks like Vishnu as Vaiswanara pervading the body through the food he cooks in the stomach. Every system inside the body as a part and the control by brain as a whole (I am leaving out details of connectivity here because I am yet to come to grips with the fact that people here do not want one to think) is an amazing aspect of Brahman ‘happening’ from macro to micro level. There is wonderful symmetry at all levels of creation, only that the human brain limited by hypocrisy and dogmas refuse to fall in line. It seems God has tough time dealing with us only - to goad to make us see reason and realise him. When a writer (writing on the moolavar) tells his little son that Thiruvaadi pporam was the birth day of ‘Goddess’ and that her age is as old as that of earth, no one would correct it. Because that would be apacharam (according to the members of the group).. But that he lost a wonderful chance to tell his son the story of Andal (who would have denounced any reference to herself as goddess) and the easy way to explain the road to spirituality by means of her story is not at all realised. Going by this kind of attitude, I very well understand how and why our sacred knowledge of the past had undergone so much mutilation over generations. For the bhktas of today, bhakti is a means to get this or that result including moksham. But I don’t think our texts ascribed to this view. They said if you expect some return for bhakti from Perumal then it is tantamount to a wife expecting ‘kooli’ from her husband for the happiness he had given her. On the other hand we find texts telling us to meditate upon him through knowledge (which I find through science and logic too) which in essence is bhakti which is para bhakti leading to him. When you do upasana on him through vigyana, you see him as vigyana mayan. Can any one challenge this? Then why this fear about science? I told my parents my fear and doubt whether it is impossible to find one belonging to our fold who understands or is desirous of understanding god through bhakti as well as knowledge from science. At least are there people who realise that knowledge that leads to bhakti has been regarded by seers like Ramanujacharya as a way of Brahmo-upasana, which Ramanujachrya himeself followed? They said they too had not seen (so far) both to co-exist. Perhaps it is Narayana alone who can understand me. So keep chanting " Sriranganatha, mamanatha, namosthuthe", they said. It is with much pain that I decide to come out of the group which in my opinion has touched only the tip of the burg as far as promoting and sustaining the essence of Vedic knowledge is concerned but can not help the devotee to keep an open and fresh mind as to allow "all noble thoughts come to them from all sides". Regards, Maya.Note: forwarded message attached. 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Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Dear SrImathi Maya Iyengar: Please do not be hurt over the exchanges relating to your mail on your impassioned plea for using the tools of science in an effort to comprehend the intricacies of ArchA Moorthy ( Consecrated Forms , where the Lord resides for accepting our AarAdhanam). I am a scientist by training and have a Doctor's degree from the top most Scientific& Engineering University , Massachusetts Institue Of Technology (MIT) . Many Members of the list are Medical Doctors and Technical Professionals . All of us have high regard to Science and its tools to open up new frontiers for saving lives and reduce suffering and to travel to far off planets and their Moons . Many of us , call ourselves rationalists or traditonalists do not believe Science as a tool can be of much help in spiritual matters. Faith takes over , where Science is unable to help . There is no irreconceilable conflict between science and Religion (Knowledge and belief ). They are not irreconceilable antagonists as stated by Einstein . He says further: " A religious person is devout in the sense that he or she has no doubt about the significance and loftiness of specific super-personal objects and goals , which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation " ( in a scientific sense) . The devout are steeped in Mahaa Viswasam about the Lord's rakshakathvam and are like children crossing a road holding firmly the hands of its Father . They have implicit and total faith in the protective capability of the Lord(Father) and are not looking for a rational explanation to convince themselves as to why and how the Lord is their protector (Rakshakan ). After many births , they hold on to the Lord's sacred feet and recognize that they have no recourse except the Lord and the Lord does not dare to shake the firm grip of the devout . These feeling states are beyond analysis by scientific methods or tools. That is the way it is ! This is not to say that the role of Science in Vedic way of life is minimal or nonexistent . The VedAs and Upanishads accept and celebrate the Lord as the source of all knowledge. Inspired by the Vedic Texts , the Rishis of Vedic age " developed their positive sciences and made the world worth while to live in with comforts and purposefulness". The rotations and revolutions of earth , planets and Sun (astronomy ) were developed by the likes of Aryabhatta et al. The concept of Zero( Kham), the reciprocal of Infinity and Mathematical Infinity were developed form here ." Besides Mathematical infinity , God Himself was recognized as the Infinite Unity ". The Science of Vedic geometry arose from Vedic Rishis . There are references to all kinds of mechanical systems in VedAs (Mechanical Engineering) . The healing powers of herbs against specific diseases ( the science of Pharmacology ) has been recorded in Atharva Vedam in great detail. The dangers of Tuberclosis and its cure has been covered in several hymns of Atarva Vedam . The world of herbs (Botany ) and animals ( Zoology) are covered again in VedAs . One can go on and on about physical sciences . But the Vedic rishis had some thing beyond the physical sciences and developed AdhyAthmika Saasthrams dealing with the metaphysical tatthvams of the indissoluble kinship between the Lord of the Universe and the Jeevans , which are both co-eternal. Science ravels along and soon is confounded by its own limits . We travel with science and come to the stage , where we seek more answers and insights that Science can not give. Our sights are lifted , our hearts are thrilled and we bask under the warmth of the wisdom of the Rg Vedic manthram ( X. 121.5): " By Him , the heavens are strong and the earth is steadfast ; by HIm light's realm and sky-vault are supported ; By Him the regions in the mid-air are measured . To that Lord alone , May we offer our adoration " . The concept of ananya gathithvam , Aakinchnyam , SaraNAgathy arose from such insights . If the physical Scientists are blessed to have the initiation into the AdhyAthmic Science under the tutelage of a SadAchAryan , they are doubly gifted indeed . One does not need however to be trained in Scientific disciplines to derive the full benefit of AdhyAthmic Science . Just Some Thoughts in passing ! NamO NaarAyaNAya , V.Sadagopan - Maya Iyengar sarathys ; jayasartn ; kdevanathan ; mksudarshan2002 ; Vijaya Raghavan ; s.ramachandran ; Sadagopan ; ramachandran soundararajan ; Friday, July 23, 2004 5:17 AM Fwd: Moolavar Dear devotees, I was shocked beyond belief to see the responses to the report quoted from Indian express on moolavar and the complete black-out of the mail I sent as a sequel to . When I came to know that relevance has been attached to the shila roopam, the materials used for abhishekam etc, I was over-awed how every aspect in our tradition has evolved with such rich meaning. With this thought when I look around it is that "Kaangindra porulellam yaane ennum..". As I look into my Human physiology book, every aspect tallies with the upanishad statement that this body of ours is the shareeram for brahman and it is he who controls it as the sarathy. The descent of 11 out of 12 cranial nerves upto heart (only) and the remaining one coming to the stomach looks like Vishnu as Vaiswanara pervading the body through the food he cooks in the stomach. Every system inside the body as a part and the control by brain as a whole (I am leaving out details of connectivity here because I am yet to come to grips with the fact that people here do not want one to think) is an amazing aspect of Brahman 'happening' from macro to micro level. There is wonderful symmetry at all levels of creation, only that the human brain limited by hypocrisy and dogmas refuse to fall in line. It seems God has tough time dealing with us only - to goad to make us see reason and realise him. When a writer (writing on the moolavar) tells his little son that Thiruvaadi pporam was the birth day of 'Goddess' and that her age is as old as that of earth, no one would correct it. Because that would be apacharam (according to the members of the group).. But that he lost a wonderful chance to tell his son the story of Andal (who would have denounced any reference to herself as goddess) and the easy way to explain the road to spirituality by means of her story is not at all realised. Going by this kind of attitude, I very well understand how and why our sacred knowledge of the past had undergone so much mutilation over generations. For the bhktas of today, bhakti is a means to get this or that result including moksham. But I don't think our texts ascribed to this view. They said if you expect some return for bhakti from Perumal then it is tantamount to a wife expecting 'kooli' from her husband for the happiness he had given her. On the other hand we find texts telling us to meditate upon him through knowledge (which I find through science and logic too) which in essence is bhakti which is para bhakti leading to him. When you do upasana on him through vigyana, you see him as vigyana mayan. Can any one challenge this? Then why this fear about science? I told my parents my fear and doubt whether it is impossible to find one belonging to our fold who understands or is desirous of understanding god through bhakti as well as knowledge from science. At least are there people who realise that knowledge that leads to bhakti has been regarded by seers like Ramanujacharya as a way of Brahmo-upasana, which Ramanujachrya himeself followed? They said they too had not seen (so far) both to co-exist. Perhaps it is Narayana alone who can understand me. So keep chanting " Sriranganatha, mamanatha, namosthuthe", they said. It is with much pain that I decide to come out of the group which in my opinion has touched only the tip of the burg as far as promoting and sustaining the essence of Vedic knowledge is concerned but can not help the devotee to keep an open and fresh mind as to allow "all noble thoughts come to them from all sides". Regards, Maya. Note: forwarded message attached. 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Guest guest Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha: Dear Sriman Vijaya Raghavan Swamin, I don't entertain any doubt regarding the structure of the Temple, the Vigraham, the materials used, the rituals etc being the most appropriate ones. Our Agama Shastras Like Paancharaathra and Vykhaanasa have laid out the principles underlying these elaborately. It is said that Sriman Narayanan our Emperuman himself taught the Paancha Raathra Agamas during 5 nights. Can there be any better Engineer be it Civil, Mechanical or Metallurgical than Emperumaan? He is also the best materail and Nutrition Scientist. In this world as it exists these are the best possible methods and structures. As A.C. Prabhupada Bhakti Vedanta Swamin of ISKCON puts it, Lord Krishna is the Greatest Scientist of all. No argument about this. But as in everything at this time, I am sorry to state, the modern Agama Shastra Pundits and Sthapathis unfortunately seem to be working under the influence of politicians, rationalists and money power, forgetting the Deity Himself, leading to all confusions and unpleasantness and thereby causing 'Arishtam" to the country and its subjects. Jai Sriman Narayana. Adiyen, Ramanuja Dasan. >Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan >Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta <acharyatvsr >Re: Re: Moolavar >Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT) > >Thatachar swami, > >I beg to differ from your view. I think the subject >here was why was this that our great and learned >ancestors, decided on this kind of structure and >ways. There should be a inner meaning for all our >deads. > >If your greatself can guide us the younger generation, >it will be of great help to do things with full >shradda. > >Dasan/raghavan > >--- Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta ><acharyatvsr wrote: > > Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha: > > If you think the Vigraham is only a symbol the go > > ahead and do all kinds of > > experiments. But we are not supposed to think that > > the Vigraham is the > > symbolic representation of Emperuman. > > Also Maya does not mean a phenomenon which also > > obeys a set of laws which > > are verifiable. It means by definition the > > inconceivable power of the Lord. > > If it obeys a set of laws then, it is known only to > > the Lord. It cannot be > > verified by any other soul. > > If in Particle Physics there is a limitation like > > the Heisenberg's > > Uncertainty Principle inbuilt in the physical way we > > try to enquire into > > matter and materiel phenomena, then the nature of > > soul, super soul and Maya > > cannot be inquired into, using physical tools. These > > tools are totally > > anadequate. > > Vigraha Aradhanam is not mere physical exercise; it > > is a mental and supra > > mental effort by the soul to crave and seek the > > Grace of the Lord. > > I draw attention here to the article writtten by > > Sriman M.K Sudersan about > > the souls being Stree by nature. Sthreetwam is > > attributed to souls not in > > physical manner. By nature they are totally > > dependent on Paramathma for > > everything and hence the sthreethwam. If we cannot > > know the gender of a > > foetus up till the 3rd month of pregnency, it does > > not mean it is sthree in > > nature. The mere absence or non-formation of organs > > of reproduction, does > > not mean that the foetus is feminine in nature. It > > can be argued that it is > > neither masculine, nor feminine. (On another plane > > "Na Puman, Nasthree, > > Nashandobo" is how the Paramathman is described in > > the Upanishads). The DNA > > code is alive and working all the time and the > > gender is predetermined at > > the very first moment of the foetal formation. Maybe > > even before as the > > Hindu Philosophy says. > > If we cannot even understand fully the Trigunathmaka > > Prakriti which follows > > a set of laws laid by the creator (which He Himself > > sometimes obeys when He > > is present as a person) using the same set of laws, > > how can we enquire into > > the nature of the Lord who is inconceivable > > according to our Vedas (and His > > powers). > > Adiiyen, > > Ramanuja Dasan. > > > > > > >shashi > > >, > > Oppiliappan > > >CC: Sudarshan K Madabushi > > <mksudarshan2002, Narender Reddy > > ><reddynp, Sgt > > <saranagathi> > > >Re: Re: Moolavar > > >Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:48:08 -0400 > > > > > >reddy jI, > > >limited things have been attributed to the > > limiteless, the moment > > >we have a tmeple, mUrtI, ritual, name etc. > > > > > >in one of the lectures late professor joseph > > campbell (who has > > >perhaps done the most to impart awareness about > > indian philosphy > > >in the west (particularly usa) says about kAlI > > stepping on shiva > > >as a symbol of going beyond the highest faith. > > > > > > > > > > >_______________ > > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN > > Search! > > >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail – Now with 25x more storage than before! > _______________ NRIs ! http://go.msnserver.com/IN/52616.asp FREE money transfers to India. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 I notice the pains which all of us going thru these mails/ exchanges--of course it is great that atleast we have started sharing such feelings--which by itself is an achievement.The fear of Apacharam seems to have taken over the questionning process--once again questionning can take place only after one has spent time with some Kalakshepam etc etc. While the arguement that-at some stage -it is the Faith which takes over the "reason" is unquestionnable --and it is sort of "realised" over a period of time by people as they go thru the life's journey.I myslef being a Physicist breaking my head on the Heisenbergs and the Quantum Thoeries--to some extent the book by Swami Neduntheru Kannan on Divine Soverignty and Our Freedom should bring about some links to the scientific temper we all trying to talk about in these columns. But what I want to say ----over these 200 plus years Srivaishnavism has undergone changes into some sort of hypocricy--mostly dominated by ritualistic --Acharam related ---percolating a sense of loss of faith as a whole--materilism has taken over even to many people who put on Dwadasa Pundrams everyday.The Great Philosophy of Vishitadvaitam by itself is increasingly being understood today with the increased number of people in their 40s (VRS cases )and many in their 20s just by virtue of revival into the essense of Ramanuja 's uinified approach .More exposure today into the concepts is helping a lot to address such questions and somewhat practice without the fear of being hypoctitic. While our philosophy as a whole is so nicely integrated --it needs enormous effort to assimilate and one's life time is not adequate---I am wondering whether at all we can ---I mean some one who could package the essense of our Siddhantaham in such a way that one could practice it on a day today basis--( for example in Budhism they have brought about the Vipassana meditation which by itslef is relatively easy to practice---today millions of people all over the world practice it and do see benefit ----though Bhudism goes against the Vedas , concept of Karma theory stands good )--so there is clear sense of direction which brings about both short term benefits while the very purpose of this meditation is the long benefit of Moksha--though the interpretation of Moksha by Budhists are different from ours.What I mean is not meditation as a solution but some such thing which can attract all scattered Sri Vaishnavaites who have or slowly melting away from the main stream siddhatam just for wnat of such simplistic approach- atleast to make a beginning. I am aware of the fact that our Siddhantam is such that it has to be practiced minute by minute--as true Sri Vaishnavaites-- as our Azhwars have done---and this is where the present day life does not lend itself to practice.====and the lack of Faith takes roots and people switch over to quick fix Gods---I am also referrring to the ParaDevata Aradhanam issue which is also taking its rounds amongst the Sri Ranga Sri memebers. Dasan, Ranagarajan. PS: Once again I attempted to understand myself the concepts rather than finding even remotely any answer to the questions that are raised and debated. - "Sadagopan" <sgopan "Maya Iyengar" <maya_s1717; <sarathys; "jasn sn" <jayasartn; <kdevanathan; "sudarshan madabushi" <mksudarshan2002; "Vijaya Raghavan" <svrvan; <s.ramachandran; "ramachandran soundararajan" <maheesaran; "SRS" <Srirangasri> Cc: "Ponnappan" <Oppiliappan> 24 July, 2004 1:11 AM Re: Moolavar > Dear SrImathi Maya Iyengar: > > Please do not be hurt over the exchanges relating to > your mail on your impassioned plea for using the tools > of science in an effort to comprehend the intricacies of > ArchA Moorthy ( Consecrated Forms , where the Lord > resides for accepting our AarAdhanam). > > I am a scientist by training and have a Doctor's degree > from the top most Scientific& Engineering University , > Massachusetts Institue Of Technology (MIT) . Many > Members of the list are Medical Doctors and Technical > Professionals . All of us have high regard to Science > and its tools to open up new frontiers for saving lives > and reduce suffering and to travel to far off planets and > their Moons . > > Many of us , call ourselves rationalists or traditonalists do > not believe Science as a tool can be of much help > in spiritual matters. Faith takes over , where Science > is unable to help . There is no irreconceilable conflict > between science and Religion (Knowledge and belief ). > They are not irreconceilable antagonists as stated by > Einstein . He says further: " A religious person is devout in > the sense that he or she has no doubt about the significance > and loftiness of specific super-personal objects and goals , > which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation " > ( in a scientific sense) . > > The devout are steeped in Mahaa Viswasam about the Lord's > rakshakathvam and are like children crossing a road holding > firmly the hands of its Father . They have implicit and total faith > in the protective capability of the Lord(Father) and are not looking for > a rational explanation to convince themselves as to why and how > the Lord is their protector (Rakshakan ). After many births , > they hold on to the Lord's sacred feet and recognize that > they have no recourse except the Lord and the Lord does > not dare to shake the firm grip of the devout . These feeling > states are beyond analysis by scientific methods or tools. > That is the way it is ! > > This is not to say that the role of Science in Vedic way of > life is minimal or nonexistent . The VedAs and Upanishads > accept and celebrate the Lord as the source of all knowledge. > Inspired by the Vedic Texts , the Rishis of Vedic age " developed > their positive sciences and made the world worth while to live in > with comforts and purposefulness". The rotations and revolutions > of earth , planets and Sun (astronomy ) were developed > by the likes of Aryabhatta et al. The concept of Zero( Kham), > the reciprocal of Infinity and Mathematical Infinity were developed > form here ." Besides Mathematical infinity , God Himself was > recognized as the Infinite Unity ". > > The Science of Vedic geometry arose from Vedic Rishis . There are > references to all kinds of mechanical systems in VedAs (Mechanical > Engineering) . The healing powers of herbs against specific > diseases ( the science of Pharmacology ) has been recorded > in Atharva Vedam in great detail. The dangers of Tuberclosis > and its cure has been covered in several hymns of Atarva Vedam . > The world of herbs (Botany ) and animals ( Zoology) are covered > again in VedAs . One can go on and on about physical sciences . > But the Vedic rishis had some thing beyond the physical sciences > and developed AdhyAthmika Saasthrams dealing with the metaphysical > tatthvams of the indissoluble kinship between the Lord of the Universe > and the Jeevans , which are both co-eternal. > > Science ravels along and soon is confounded by its own > limits . We travel with science and come to the stage , where > we seek more answers and insights that Science can not give. > Our sights are lifted , our hearts are thrilled and we bask under > the warmth of the wisdom of the Rg Vedic manthram ( X. 121.5): > > " By Him , the heavens are strong and the earth is steadfast ; > by HIm light's realm and sky-vault are supported ; By Him the regions > in the mid-air are measured . To that Lord alone , May we offer > our adoration " . The concept of ananya gathithvam , Aakinchnyam , > SaraNAgathy arose from such insights . > > If the physical Scientists are blessed to have the initiation into the AdhyAthmic > Science under the tutelage of a SadAchAryan , they are doubly gifted indeed . > One does not need however to be trained in Scientific disciplines > to derive the full benefit of AdhyAthmic Science . > > Just Some Thoughts in passing ! > > NamO NaarAyaNAya , > V.Sadagopan > > > > > > > > > - > Maya Iyengar > sarathys ; jayasartn ; kdevanathan ; mksudarshan2002 ; Vijaya Raghavan ; s.ramachandran ; Sadagopan ; ramachandran soundararajan ; > Friday, July 23, 2004 5:17 AM > Fwd: Moolavar > > > Dear devotees, > > I was shocked beyond belief to see the responses to the report quoted from Indian express on moolavar and the complete black-out of the mail I sent as a sequel to . When I came to know that relevance has been attached to the shila roopam, the materials used for abhishekam etc, I was over-awed how every aspect in our tradition has evolved with such rich meaning. With this thought when I look around it is that "Kaangindra porulellam yaane ennum..". As I look into my Human physiology book, every aspect tallies with the upanishad statement that this body of ours is the shareeram for brahman and it is he who controls it as the sarathy. The descent of 11 out of 12 cranial nerves upto heart (only) and the remaining one coming to the stomach looks like Vishnu as Vaiswanara pervading the body through the food he cooks in the stomach. Every system inside the body as a part and the control by brain as a whole (I am leaving out details of connectivity here because I am yet to come to grips with the fact that people here do not want one to think) is an amazing aspect of Brahman 'happening' from macro to micro level. There is wonderful symmetry at all levels of creation, only that the human brain limited by hypocrisy and dogmas refuse to fall in line. It seems God has tough time dealing with us only - to goad to make us see reason and realise him. When a writer (writing on the moolavar) tells his little son that Thiruvaadi pporam was the birth day of 'Goddess' and that her age is as old as that of earth, no one would correct it. Because that would be apacharam (according to the members of the group).. But that he lost a wonderful chance to tell his son the story of Andal (who would have denounced any reference to herself as goddess) and the easy way to explain the road to spirituality by means of her story is not at all realised. Going by this kind of attitude, I very well understand how and why our sacred knowledge of the past had undergone so much mutilation over generations. For the bhktas of today, bhakti is a means to get this or that result including moksham. But I don't think our texts ascribed to this view. They said if you expect some return for bhakti from Perumal then it is tantamount to a wife expecting 'kooli' from her husband for the happiness he had given her. On the other hand we find texts telling us to meditate upon him through knowledge (which I find through science and logic too) which in essence is bhakti which is para bhakti leading to him. When you do upasana on him through vigyana, you see him as vigyana mayan. Can any one challenge this? Then why this fear about science? > > I told my parents my fear and doubt whether it is impossible to find one belonging to our fold who understands or is desirous of understanding god through bhakti as well as knowledge from science. At least are there people who realise that knowledge that leads to bhakti has been regarded by seers like Ramanujacharya as a way of Brahmo-upasana, which Ramanujachrya himeself followed? They said they too had not seen (so far) both to co-exist. Perhaps it is Narayana alone who can understand me. So keep chanting " Sriranganatha, mamanatha, namosthuthe", they said. > > It is with much pain that I decide to come out of the group which in my opinion has touched only the tip of the burg as far as promoting and sustaining the essence of Vedic knowledge is concerned but can not help the devotee to keep an open and fresh mind as to allow "all noble thoughts come to them from all sides". > > Regards, > > Maya. > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > -------- ---- > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > Links > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Dear Bhagavathas, This may be deviating a little bit from the present topic. I being from technical background as well believe Vedas are also science. Our ancient Indian Science was subject based and not object based as is the prsent day science. I still agree with our ancestors who rightly termed Perumal as Ksheerasaagara Shayana (One who rests on the milky ocean). If we are not wrong, our galaxy is named Milky way. Our ancestors were far ahead of the present day science. The other point would I would like to stress is the Navagraham. Navagraham depicts Sun at the centre of the Graha (planetary) system. This is the heliocentric thoery. Our ancestors knew this long back. But for the modern day science, it was Galileo who gave this theory. If we can spend more time into the works of ancestors, may be we can find even more that has not discovered or invented yet. Aduyen, Thuphal Viayaraghava Dasan Hungary Sudarshan K Madabushi [mksudarshan2002] Tue 7/20/2004 6:52 PM Cc: Re: Moolavar Dear Bhagavatas: As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations. Moderator =============================================================================== , Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717> wrote: > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances? > Regards, > Maya. Dear member, The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended) scientific justification for idolatry. But it also makes one wonder about another thing. If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s' in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing, all the positive energy the granite is said to generate? Can scientific-minded members please throw some light? Thanks and regards, dAsan, Sudarshan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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