rama's date

[Guest guest]

Dear Jayasree Saranathan madam and sri vaishnava perunthagaiyeer,

 

On the point of relying on age of 17 based on slOkam 2-20–45 of

ayOdhya kaaNdam, by Prof: Vartak, I have to add following.

 

First what Smt. Jayasree said. Quote:

Coming to the points raised in your mail, Prof Varthak has been right

in having taken the age of 17 as the time when the coronation was

fixed. The sloka, he has quoted in support of this, runs like this.

 

"dasha sapta ca varSaaNi tava jaatasya raaghava |

asitaani prakaankSantyaa mayaa duhkha parikSayam || 2-20-45

 

"Oh, Rama! I have been waiting for seventeen years after your second

birth of thread ceremony, with the hope that my troubles will

disappear at one time or the other." (unquote)

 

Please note the word used by Kausalya. "tava jaatasya" has been

translated as the thread ceremony here.

 

I request scholars to explain the usage of this term to mean the

thread ceremony.

Unquote:

 

MGV: I would like to add from same 20th sargam next slokam

thadhakshayam mahaa dhukham nOtsahE sahithum chiram |

viprakaaram sapathneenaam Evam jeerNaapi raaghava || 2-20-46

 

raaghava = oh, Rama!

thath = for that reason,

Evam = in the way

jeerNaapi = even if old aged,

na uthsahE = I do not wish

sahithum = to bear

viprakaaram = insult

sapathneenaam = of co-wives,

akshayam = un-ending

mahath = great

dhukham = sorrow

chiram = for long time

 

meaning: Oh, Rama! In this old age, I cannot bear insult from co-

wives and this unending sorrow for a long time.

 

sthhiram hi noonam hrudhayam mama aayasam | na bhidhyathE yadh bhuvi

na avadheeryathE |

anEna dhukhEna cha dhEham arpitham | dhruvam hi akaalE maraNam na

vidhyathE || 2-20-51

 

51. anEna dhukhEna = By the grief,

dhEham = body

arpitham = is pierced.

noonam = indeed

mama = my

hrudhayam = heart

sthhiram = which is hard

aayasam = is made of iron.

yath = for which reason

na bhidhyathE = it is not broken

na avadheeryathE = it has not fallen into pieces,

bhuvi = on the floor

na vidhyathE = There is no

akaale = untimely

maraNam = death

dhruvam = It is certain.

 

Meaning: This grief has gone into my body. Even then, my heart is

stable. It has not broken into pieces and fallen on the floor. It is

indeed made of iron. There is no untimely death, it is certain".

 

Comment: 1. In the mood of so much grief, mental strain and agony of

separation, perhaps the figure of 17, what a mother says, can be

taken as incorrect. That too, of mother kousalya, when she is

sorrowful, for she is seeing her son off, when she was just

anticipating the happy news of raamaa's coronation. She says my heart

is of iron and not breaking – so much sorrow. In that stage, chances

are very bright that figures are likely to be misquoted. [but that 17

years is also correct as per derivation given below].

 

2. Against this scene, Just compare this with a wife introducing

herself in clear terms to a third party, "that we lived happily for

twelve years after our marriage and in the thirteenth year, king

monarch proposed the coronation" as given in my earlier post. If

those are to be discounted – means something concrete is being

brushed aside.

 

3. Further one more argument can be advanced – seethaa is also in a

stressed mood after having heard raama is in trouble against the

golden deer, because his voice of distress. But in reality, seethaa

is not that grieving situation, like kousalya, for she is in her

clear terms. That is understood from the way she introduces herself

to raavanan, carrying out the athithi samskaaram to raavaNan thinking

that he is a real sanyaasi. Later when he reveals himself as 10

headed only, she becomes afraid.

 

On to this `jaata' – Monier Williams dictionary gives following

meanings.

jāta

jātá mfn. (√jan

• ifc. Pāṇ. 6-2, 171) born, brought into existence by (loc.),

engendered by (instr. or abl.) RV. &c

• grown, produced, arisen, caused, appeared ib.

• ifc. (cf. Pāṇ. 2-2, 5 Kāś. ; 36 Vārtt. 1 ; vi, 2,

170) See māsa-,

saptâha-, &c

• appearing on or in VarBṛS. lī, 5 ff

• destined for (dat.) RV. iv, 20, 6 ; ix, 94, 4

• turning to (dat.) Sāh. iii, 58/59

• happened, become, present, apparent, manifest TS. VS. &c

• belonging to (gen.) RV. i, 83, 5 ; viii, 62, 10

• ready at hand Pañcat. ii, 16

• possessed of (instr.) MBh. iv, 379

• often ifc. instead of in comp. (cf. Pāṇ. 2-2, 36 Vārtt. 1 ;

vi, 2,

170 f

• g. āhitâgny-ādi), e.g. kiṇa-, danta-, &c., qq.vv

• m. a son RV. ii, 25, 1 AV. xi, 9, 6 ŚBr. xiv Pañcat.

• a living being (said of men, rarely of gods) RV. iv, 2, 2 ; v, 15,

2 ; x, 12, 3 AV. xviii VS. viii, 36

• N. of a son of Brahmā PadmaP. v

• n. a living being, creature RV.

• birth, origin, i, 156, 2 and 163, 1 ; iii, 31, 3

• race, kind, sort, class, species, viii, 39, 6 AV. &c

• a multitude or collection of things forming a class (chiefly ifc.,

e.g. karma-', the whole aggregate of actions' Mn. vii, 61/62 sukha-

, 'anything or everything included under the name pleasure' Gīt. x,

3) Mn. ix MBh. &c

• individuality, specific condition (vyakta) L.

• = -karman NārS.

• (impers. with double instr.) it turned out or happened that Rājat.

v, 364 [Page 417, Column 3]

• (ā), f. a daughter W.

• [cf.-? ; Germ. Kind ; Lith. gentis.]

 

So on a first study this `jaatha' means born, brought into existence.

But how this jaatha is taken as second birth is some thing to be

probed further.

 

On a further analysis, the `jaatha karman' is performed immediately

or on the day of a child's birth. That is confirmed as in `manu

smruthi' chapter 2, which reads as follows.

 

Quote:

2.2.1 Jatakarman

Before the navel-string is cut, the Jatakarman (birth-rite) must be

performed for a male (child); and while sacred formulas are being

recited, he must be fed with gold, honey, and butter. [v.2.29.].

unquote:

 

Now smt. Jayasree's point: quote:

If it is taken as jaata karma - naama karma done soon after birth,

Raama's age can be literally taken as 17 as per this sloka. Again if

we look into the Valmiki Ramayana for the time of thread ceremony for

Raama, we come across this verse.

 

"braahmaNaan bhojayaamaasa pauraan jaanapadaan api |

udadad braahmaNaanaam cha ratnaugham amalam bahu || 1-18-23

teSaam janma kriya aadIni sarva karmaaNi akaarayat |

 

The king feasted Brahmans, urbanites and villagers and he gifted many

valuable gems to Brahmans in an unlimited way, and all the rituals of

birth and ceremonies sequel to it like naming ceremony, first-food-

feeding ceremony, first-hair-removal ceremony, and sacred thread

ceremony are performed in respect of the princes. [1-18-23, 24a]

 

The years in which these have been done is not mentioned, but sounds

that the thread ceremony was pretty early considering the sequence of

ceremonies mentioned in this verse. Unquote:

 

MGV: I wish to add the next slOkam of baala kaaNdam same sargam -

 

sarvE vEdha vidha: sooraa: sarvE lOkahithE rathaa: || 1-18-25

sarvE j~naanOpasampannaa: sarvE samudhithaa guNai: |

 

25b, 26a. sarvE vEdha vidha: = all princes are, in VEdhaas, scholars;

sooraa: = valiant ones;

sarvE lOka hithE rathaa: = all are, in worlds', welfare, interested;

sarvE j~naana upa sampannaa: = all are, intellectual ones;

sarvE samudhithaa guNai: = all are, possessors of, with merits - air

of probity.

 

Meaning: All the princes are scholars in VEdhaas, valiant ones, all

are interested in the welfare of the world, all are intellectuals and

all of them possess an air of probity. [1-18-25b, 26a].

 

Point: So, one to become qualified to study vEdhaas, as per manu

smruthi, they should be initiated. That has to be done, as per manu

smruthi, in the age of SIX [6] for kshathriyaas [raama being a

kshathriya]. See portion of manu smruthi

 

Quote: Part 2: The Brahmacari Asrama

2.3 Upanayana

2.3.1 The time

In the eighth year after conception, one should perform the

initiation (upanayana) of a Brahmana, in the eleventh after

conception (that) of a Kshatriya, but in the twelfth that of a

Vaisya. [v.2.36.]

 

(The initiation) of a Brahmana who desires proficiency in sacred

learning should take place in the fifth (year after conception),

(that) of a Kshatriya who wishes to become powerful in the sixth,

(and that) of a Vaisya who longs for (success in his) business in the

eighth. [v.2.37.]

 

The (time for the) Savitri (initiation) of a Brahmana does not pass

until the completion of the sixteenth year (after conception), of a

Kshatriya until the completion of the twenty-second, and of a Vaisya

until the completion of the twenty-fourth. [v.2.38.]

 

After those (periods men of) these three (castes) who have not

received the sacrament at the proper time, become Vratyas (outcasts),

excluded from the Savitri (initiation) and despised by the Aryans.

[v.2.39.]

 

With such men, if they have not been purified according to the rule,

let no Brahmana ever, even in times of distress, form a connexion

either through the Veda or by marriage. [v.2.40.]

 

4.3 First, second & third birth

According to the injunction of the revealed texts the first birth of

an Aryan is from (his natural) mother, the second (happens) on the

tying of the girdle of Munja grass, and the third on the initiation

to (the performance of) a (Srauta) sacrifice. [v.2.169.]

 

Among those (three) the birth which is symbolised by the investiture

with the girdle of Munja grass, is his birth for the sake of the

Veda; they declare that in that (birth) the Savitri (verse) is his

mother and the teacher his father. [v.2.170.]

 

They call the teacher (the pupil's) father because he gives the Veda;

for nobody can perform a (sacred) rite before the investiture with

the girdle of Munja grass. [v.2.171.]

 

(He who has not been initiated) should not pronounce (any) Vedic text

excepting (those required for) the performance of funeral rites,

since he is on a level with a Sudra before his birth from the Veda.

[v.2.172.]

 

The (student) who has been initiated must be instructed in the

performance of the vows, and gradually learn the Veda, observing the

prescribed rules. [v.2.173.]

 

Whatever dress of skin, sacred thread, girdle, staff, and lower

garment are prescribed for a (student at the initiation), the like

(must again be used) at the (performance of the) vows. [v.2.174.]

 

Unquote:

 

Note: the manu smrithi translation is taken from internet.

 

MGV: Now, my point is as stated by kousalya she waited for 17 years,

after raamaa's second birth – that is the initiation in study of

vEdhaas is done to raama as per manu smruthi or saasthraas, [we can

definitely take that, for raama, the rituals are all done as per

saasthraas – that was derived from the composition of the gurus and

the super cabinet, king dhasaratha had, consisting of vasishta and

other rishis] - not like kali – this era.

 

So now raama is 24 – for kousalya waited for 17 years after

initiation in study of vEdhaas at the age of 6, and now it is 18th

year – the period of coronation and being exiled. This CAN DEFINITELY

BE TAKEN AS CORRECT.

 

The other point of raamaa's marriage is at 12 + lived for 12 years as

per seetha slokam already quoted and repeated here, also more or less

tallies. So this `thava jaathasya' as the second birth - thread

ceremony also appears ok.

 

mama bharthaa mahaathEjaa vayasaa pancha vimsaka || 3-47-10

aSTaa dasha hi varshaaNi mama janmani gaNyathE |

 

Meaning: My great-resplendent husband was of twenty-five years of age

[at that time] and to me, eighteen years are reckoned up from my

birth.

 

But leaving for forest at 17 is the thing, which is not ok. So we

have to look for more evidence. The intention of writing this, is not

to bring in any controversy etc but go into some more `depth' of

raamaayaNam.

 

Dhasan

Vasudevan m.g.