Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Sri: Dear BhakthAs : It is my pleasure to share with you Sriman AMR Kannan Swamy's posting in the Sri Ranga Sri list . V.Sadagopan > Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin, > > Thank you sharing us about the origin of the word Hebbar. That was very > informative. > > You have also mentioned that Sri Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava > when he was born and was born to an advaitin. Could you please refer > some authentic manuscripts regarding this claim? I don't think Sri > Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin. > > We first need to understand the social structure of Sri Ramanuja's days. > In those days everyone who followed the Vedic (vaidika) religion wore > only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme > reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people might have followed > advaita philosophy as well. But the difference between now and then was > whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi you always wore a urdhva > pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality unlike the > present scenario. Therefore whatever the difference between the (present > day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did not exists in those days. > In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the rituals prescribed in > smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. Therefore even if we say that > Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we need to clearly understand > that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping did not exist in those days. > For example those smarthas did not wear thri-pundram. They might have > used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or something else to wear an > urdhva pundram. Another example is those smarthas did not accept other > deities as supreme reality. > > Adiyen still remember the words of Sri Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami > during one of his upanyasams in Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas > (those who follow vedic religion) may dispute among themselves whether > Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or Vishistadvaita is the vedic > philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. But these vaidikas will > never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the supreme reality or some > other deity is the ultimate truth. Because Sriman Narayana's supremacy > is what vedic philosophy and that is what all vaidikas including > Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis believe." But of course the > present day situation is different. We should not gauge those days with > present day's standards. > > Now the question comes, how do we know for sure? We need to read the > great works done by those acharyas. For example, Sri Adhi > Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in particular 2nd chapter > (Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a good place to start about Sri > Shankaracharya's position on various religions practiced in his days. > Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu > Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to read in order to > understand his philosophy. > > But if we want to know the essence of these writings, there are two > excellent books written by Puththur Sri Sudharshanam Sri > Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2. > Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were written with authenticity. > These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to translate them for > everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers for many misconceived > thoughts. > > Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan > > >>===== Original Message From "Sampige Srinivasa" <sampiges > ===== >>Dear Sri. Balaji, >> >>Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and > also >>it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he > was >>born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached > Vishistadvaita, >>Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when >>Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it >>spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka. >> >>The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in > the >>Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember > reading >>this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life > of >>Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the > orgin of >>Hebbar Srivaishnavas >> >>During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a >>group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to > convert to >>Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of > Vishistadvaita. >>Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly > Brahmin >>Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar >>Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada >>Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by > the >>teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said. >> >>Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala >>Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar >>Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially, >>Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar >>districts. >> >>They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of > these >>districts. for more info. Please visit > www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net >><http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/> >> >>Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction > towards >>kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the > Divya >>Prabhandams. >> >>But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They > read the >>Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated > to >>Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in > Temples in >>Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are >>residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu >>Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is > lower >>than the Plateau of Karnataka. >> >>I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect >>called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka. >> >>Om namO nArAyanAya >>Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar >>Bengalooru >> > Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Before Ramanuja there was only Vishnavism, and the philosophy existed was only Advita. Sri Ramanuja made advita into Vishista-advita also called as qualified advita or qualified monoism.He made Vishnavism into Srivishnavisam by giving a place to SRI also known as Godess Lakshmi. Acharya Ramanuja is the founder of Srivishnavism Sect. If you study the Life of Sri Ramanuja, you will find that his Guru taught Ramanuja and his class-mates advita philosophy.Later came Madhwa Charya and his philosophy was Dwaitha also called as Dualism. Before Ramanuja the Red Line signifying Lakshmi or Sri in the center of the Namam did not exist, it was Sri Ramanuja who inserted the Red. It is very clear that Vishsta-advita philosophy did not exist before Sri Ramanuja. I welcome more arguments in this subject from learned Scholars. Adijen Krishna Sri Ramanuja Dasansgopan <sgopan (AT) computer (DOT) net> wrote: Sri:Dear BhakthAs :It is my pleasure to share with you Sriman AMR Kannan Swamy'sposting in the Sri Ranga Sri list .V.Sadagopan> Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin,>> Thank you sharing us about the origin of the word Hebbar. That was very> informative.>> You have also mentioned that Sri Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava> when he was born and was born to an advaitin. Could you please refer> some authentic manuscripts regarding this claim? I don't think Sri> Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin.>> We first need to understand the social structure of Sri Ramanuja's days.> In those days everyone who followed the Vedic (vaidika) religion wore> only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme> reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people might have followed> advaita philosophy as well. But the difference between now and then was> whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi you always wore a urdhva> pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality unlike the> present scenario. Therefore whatever the difference between the (present> day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did not exists in those days.> In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the rituals prescribed in> smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. Therefore even if we say that> Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we need to clearly understand> that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping did not exist in those days.> For example those smarthas did not wear thri-pundram. They might have> used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or something else to wear an> urdhva pundram. Another example is those smarthas did not accept other> deities as supreme reality.>> Adiyen still remember the words of Sri Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami> during one of his upanyasams in Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas> (those who follow vedic religion) may dispute among themselves whether> Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or Vishistadvaita is the vedic> philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. But these vaidikas will> never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the supreme reality or some> other deity is the ultimate truth. Because Sriman Narayana's supremacy> is what vedic philosophy and that is what all vaidikas including> Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis believe." But of course the> present day situation is different. We should not gauge those days with> present day's standards.>> Now the question comes, how do we know for sure? We need to read the> great works done by those acharyas. For example, Sri Adhi> Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in particular 2nd chapter> (Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a good place to start about Sri> Shankaracharya's position on various religions practiced in his days.> Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu> Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to read in order to> understand his philosophy.>> But if we want to know the essence of these writings, there are two> excellent books written by Puththur Sri Sudharshanam Sri> Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2.> Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were written with authenticity.> These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to translate them for> everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers for many misconceived> thoughts.>> Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan>>>>===== Original Message From "Sampige Srinivasa" <sampiges (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>> =====>>Dear Sri. Balaji,>>>>Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and> also>>it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he> was>>born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached> Vishistadvaita,>>Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when>>Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it>>spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka.>>>>The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in> the>>Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember> reading>>this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life> of>>Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the> orgin of>>Hebbar Srivaishnavas>>>>During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a>>group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to> convert to>>Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of> Vishistadvaita.>>Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly> Brahmin>>Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar>>Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada>>Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by> the>>teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said.>>>>Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala>>Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar>>Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially,>>Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar>>districts.>>>>They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of> these>>districts. for more info. Please visit> www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net>><http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/>>>>>Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction> towards>>kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the> Divya>>Prabhandams.>>>>But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They> read the>>Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated> to>>Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in> Temples in>>Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are>>residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu>>Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is> lower>>than the Plateau of Karnataka.>>>>I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect>>called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka.>>>>Om namO nArAyanAya>>Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar>>Bengalooru>>>>>>>>>> Groups Links>>>>>>> Honganour Srinivasarangachar Krishna E-Mail: hokrishna Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Dear Sri KrishNa : Sri VaishNavam existed much before AchArya RaamAnuja's time . Swamy Naatha Muni , Swamy AlavanthAr , Periya Nampi , GhOstipuram Nampi , and a host of others preceded AchArya RaamAnujA as Sri VaishNavite AchAryAs . Much before them were our AzhwArs . Hence it is not correct to advance the various points that you are making : (1) Before Ramanuja only VaishNavam (Not Sri VaishNavam ) existed (2) Before Ramanuja"s time , only advaitha alone existed as philosophy (3) Ramanuja is the founder of Vaishnavam "sect " (4) Before Ramanuja The ThirumaNN was all gopi . These are all erroneous . What Sriman AMR Kannan wrote is correct . Sriman MadhavakkaNNan has a whole web site devoted to AchArya Ramanuja .. Please study the various articles there in . I know you are quite eager to learn about our sampradhAyam & its history . I do not know where you came across these ideas that you are declaring categorically . A lot of aasthikAs might get offended . I request you to be careful in making this kind of incorrect assertions . Please approach an AchAryan in India and spend some time with him . You will enjoy those sessions to get on to the right track . With all best wishes , V.Sadagopan - honganour krishna Oppiliappan ; Srivaishnavam_update ; Thengalaiiyengar ; VEDIC_TALK ; Velukkudi Krishnan ; RAMANUJA GROUPS ; ramanuja mission ; JEEYAR Cc: HONGANUR S SESHADRI ; MYSORE K SRINIVASAN ; SRILATHA SRINIVASAN ; ; HONGANOOR S VENKATESH ; SRINIDHI VENKATESH ; shylaja krishnamurthy ; MR. & MRS. BALAJI ; MR. & MRS. Dr. RAMAPRASAD ; honganour parthasarathy ; SADAGOPAN Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:23 PM Re: Fw: RE: Origin of Hebbar iyengars Swamin: Before Ramanuja there was only Vishnavism, and the philosophy existed was only Advita. Sri Ramanuja made advita into Vishista-advita also called as qualified advita or qualified monoism.He made Vishnavism into Srivishnavisam by giving a place to SRI also known as Godess Lakshmi. Acharya Ramanuja is the founder of Srivishnavism Sect. If you study the Life of Sri Ramanuja, you will find that his Guru taught Ramanuja and his class-mates advita philosophy.Later came Madhwa Charya and his philosophy was Dwaitha also called as Dualism. Before Ramanuja the Red Line signifying Lakshmi or Sri in the center of the Namam did not exist, it was Sri Ramanuja who inserted the Red. It is very clear that Vishsta-advita philosophy did not exist before Sri Ramanuja. I welcome more arguments in this subject from learned Scholars. Adijen Krishna Sri Ramanuja Dasansgopan <sgopan (AT) computer (DOT) net> wrote: Sri:Dear BhakthAs :It is my pleasure to share with you Sriman AMR Kannan Swamy'sposting in the Sri Ranga Sri list .V.Sadagopan> Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin,>> Thank you sharing us about the origin of the word Hebbar. That was very> informative.>> You have also mentioned that Sri Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava> when he was born and was born to an advaitin. Could you please refer> some authentic manuscripts regarding this claim? I don't think Sri> Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin.>> We first need to understand the social structure of Sri Ramanuja's days.> In those days everyone who followed the Vedic (vaidika) religion wore> only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme> reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people might have followed> advaita philosophy as well. But the difference between now and then was> whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi you always wore a urdhva> pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality unlike the> present scenario. Therefore whatever the difference between the (present> day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did not exists in those days.> In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the rituals prescribed in> smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. Therefore even if we say that> Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we need to clearly understand> that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping did not exist in those days.> For example those smarthas did not wear thri-pundram. They might have> used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or something else to wear an> urdhva pundram. Another example is those smarthas did not accept other> deities as supreme reality.>> Adiyen still remember the words of Sri Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami> during one of his upanyasams in Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas> (those who follow vedic religion) may dispute among themselves whether> Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or Vishistadvaita is the vedic> philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. But these vaidikas will> never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the supreme reality or some> other deity is the ultimate truth. Because Sriman Narayana's supremacy> is what vedic philosophy and that is what all vaidikas including> Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis believe." But of course the> present day situation is different. We should not gauge those days with> present day's standards.>> Now the question comes, how do we know for sure? We need to read the> great works done by those acharyas. For example, Sri Adhi> Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in particular 2nd chapter> (Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a good place to start about Sri> Shankaracharya's position on various religions practiced in his days.> Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu> Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to read in order to> understand his philosophy.>> But if we want to know the essence of these writings, there are two> excellent books written by Puththur Sri Sudharshanam Sri> Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2.> Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were written with authenticity.> These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to translate them for> everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers for many misconceived> thoughts.>> Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan>>>>===== Original Message From "Sampige Srinivasa" <sampiges (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>> =====>>Dear Sri. Balaji,>>>>Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and> also>>it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he> was>>born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached> Vishistadvaita,>>Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when>>Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it>>spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka.>>>>The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in> the>>Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember> reading>>this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life> of>>Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the> orgin of>>Hebbar Srivaishnavas>>>>During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a>>group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to> convert to>>Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of> Vishistadvaita.>>Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly> Brahmin>>Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar>>Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada>>Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by> the>>teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said.>>>>Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala>>Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar>>Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially,>>Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar>>districts.>>>>They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of> these>>districts. for more info. Please visit> www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net>><http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/>>>>>Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction> towards>>kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the> Divya>>Prabhandams.>>>>But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They> read the>>Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated> to>>Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in> Temples in>>Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are>>residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu>>Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is> lower>>than the Plateau of Karnataka.>>>>I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect>>called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka.>>>>Om namO nArAyanAya>>Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar>>Bengalooru>>>>>>>>>> Groups Links>>>>>>> Honganour Srinivasarangachar Krishna E-Mail: hokrishna Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Your advice is well appreciated. It is true one is to ascertain the true facts from learned scholars before rushing up to come up with statements which will affect the sentiments of Bhaktas. Dasan Tamarapu Sampath Kumaran --- sgopan <sgopan wrote: > Dear Sri KrishNa : Sri VaishNavam existed much > before AchArya RaamAnuja's time . > > Swamy Naatha Muni , Swamy AlavanthAr , Periya Nampi > , GhOstipuram > Nampi , and a host of others preceded AchArya > RaamAnujA as Sri VaishNavite > AchAryAs . Much before them were our AzhwArs . Hence > it is not correct to > advance the various points that you are making : (1) > Before Ramanuja only VaishNavam > (Not Sri VaishNavam ) existed (2) Before Ramanuja"s > time , only advaitha alone existed > as philosophy (3) Ramanuja is the founder of > Vaishnavam "sect " (4) Before Ramanuja > The ThirumaNN was all gopi . > > These are all erroneous . What Sriman AMR Kannan > wrote is correct . > Sriman MadhavakkaNNan has a whole web site devoted > to AchArya > Ramanuja . Please study the various articles there > in . > > I know you are quite eager to learn about our > sampradhAyam & its history . > I do not know where you came across these ideas that > you are declaring > categorically . A lot of aasthikAs might get > offended . I request you to be > careful in making this kind of incorrect assertions > . Please approach an > AchAryan in India and spend some time with him . > You will enjoy those > sessions to get on to the right track . > > With all best wishes , > V.Sadagopan > - > honganour krishna > Oppiliappan ; > Srivaishnavam_update ; Thengalaiiyengar ; VEDIC_TALK > ; Velukkudi Krishnan ; RAMANUJA GROUPS ; ramanuja > mission ; JEEYAR > Cc: HONGANUR S SESHADRI ; MYSORE K SRINIVASAN ; > SRILATHA SRINIVASAN ; ; HONGANOOR S > VENKATESH ; SRINIDHI VENKATESH ; shylaja > krishnamurthy ; MR. & MRS. BALAJI ; MR. & MRS. Dr. > RAMAPRASAD ; honganour parthasarathy ; SADAGOPAN > Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:23 PM > Re: Fw: RE: > Origin of Hebbar iyengars > > > Swamin: > Before Ramanuja there was only Vishnavism, and the > philosophy existed was only Advita. Sri Ramanuja > made advita into Vishista-advita also called as > qualified advita or qualified monoism.He made > Vishnavism into Srivishnavisam by giving a place to > SRI also known as Godess Lakshmi. Acharya Ramanuja > is the founder of Srivishnavism Sect. If you study > the Life of Sri Ramanuja, you will find that his > Guru taught Ramanuja and his class-mates advita > philosophy.Later came Madhwa Charya and his > philosophy was Dwaitha also called as Dualism. > Before Ramanuja the Red Line signifying Lakshmi or > Sri in the center of the Namam did not exist, it was > Sri Ramanuja who inserted the Red. It is very clear > that Vishsta-advita philosophy did not exist before > Sri Ramanuja. I welcome more arguments in this > subject from learned Scholars. > Adijen Krishna Sri Ramanuja Dasan > sgopan <sgopan wrote: > Sri: > > Dear BhakthAs : > > It is my pleasure to share with you Sriman AMR > Kannan Swamy's > posting in the Sri Ranga Sri list . > > V.Sadagopan > > > > Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin, > > > > Thank you sharing us about the origin of the > word Hebbar. That was very > > informative. > > > > You have also mentioned that Sri > Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava > > when he was born and was born to an advaitin. > Could you please refer > > some authentic manuscripts regarding this > claim? I don't think Sri > > Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin. > > > > We first need to understand the social > structure of Sri Ramanuja's days. > > In those days everyone who followed the Vedic > (vaidika) religion wore > > only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman > Narayana as the supreme > > reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people > might have followed > > advaita philosophy as well. But the difference > between now and then was > > whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi > you always wore a urdhva > > pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the > supreme reality unlike the > > present scenario. Therefore whatever the > difference between the (present > > day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did > not exists in those days. > > In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the > rituals prescribed in > > smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. > Therefore even if we say that > > Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we > need to clearly understand > > that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping > did not exist in those days. > > For example those smarthas did not wear > thri-pundram. They might have > > used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or > something else to wear an > > urdhva pundram. Another example is those > smarthas did not accept other > > deities as supreme reality. > > > > Adiyen still remember the words of Sri > Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami > > during one of his upanyasams in > Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas > > (those who follow vedic religion) may dispute > among themselves whether > > Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or > Vishistadvaita is the vedic > > philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. > But these vaidikas will > > never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the > supreme reality or some > > other deity is the ultimate truth. Because > Sriman Narayana's supremacy > > is what vedic philosophy and that is what all > vaidikas including > > Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis > believe." But of course the > > present day situation is different. We should > not gauge those days with > > present day's standards. > > > > Now the question comes, how do we know for > sure? We need to read the > > great works done by those acharyas. For > example, Sri Adhi > > Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in > particular 2nd chapter > > (Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a > good place to start about Sri > > Shankaracharya's position on various religions > practiced in his days. > > Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita > Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu > > Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to > read in order to > > understand his philosophy. > > > > But if we want to know the essence of these > writings, there are two > > excellent books written by Puththur Sri > Sudharshanam Sri > > Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga > Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2. > > Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were > written with authenticity. > > These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to > translate them for > > everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers > for many misconceived > > thoughts. > > > > Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan > > > > > >>===== Original Message From "Sampige > Srinivasa" <sampiges > > ===== > >>Dear Sri. Balaji, > >> > >>Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally > Srivaishnavas as you said and > > also > >>it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was > not a Srivaishnava when he > > was > >>born. He was born to an advaitin! So when > Ramanuja preached > === message truncated === _________ Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Dear Sri Krishna, VishistAdvaita sampradayam is a parama vaidhika matham. Sri Ramanuja only propagated the already existing philosophy. EmperumAnAr was not a founder of Srivaishnavism as you have mentioned. Swamy before writing Sribhasyam took the reference from Bodhayana vriththi grandham that was preserved in the sarada peedam. This bhodhayana vriththi was full and full based on VishistAdvaita principles. That shows that even before Sri Ramanuja VishistAdvaita philosophy was very well there. Swamy only propagated it to the world. Adiyen ramanuja dAsee Sumithra Varadarajan - honganour krishna Oppiliappan ; Srivaishnavam_update ; Thengalaiiyengar ; VEDIC_TALK ; Velukkudi Krishnan ; RAMANUJA GROUPS ; ramanuja mission ; JEEYAR Cc: HONGANUR S SESHADRI ; MYSORE K SRINIVASAN ; SRILATHA SRINIVASAN ; ; HONGANOOR S VENKATESH ; SRINIDHI VENKATESH ; shylaja krishnamurthy ; MR. & MRS. BALAJI ; MR. & MRS. Dr. RAMAPRASAD ; honganour parthasarathy ; SADAGOPAN Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:23 AM Re: Fw: RE: Origin of Hebbar iyengars Swamin: Before Ramanuja there was only Vishnavism, and the philosophy existed was only Advita. Sri Ramanuja made advita into Vishista-advita also called as qualified advita or qualified monoism.He made Vishnavism into Srivishnavisam by giving a place to SRI also known as Godess Lakshmi. Acharya Ramanuja is the founder of Srivishnavism Sect. If you study the Life of Sri Ramanuja, you will find that his Guru taught Ramanuja and his class-mates advita philosophy.Later came Madhwa Charya and his philosophy was Dwaitha also called as Dualism. Before Ramanuja the Red Line signifying Lakshmi or Sri in the center of the Namam did not exist, it was Sri Ramanuja who inserted the Red. It is very clear that Vishsta-advita philosophy did not exist before Sri Ramanuja. I welcome more arguments in this subject from learned Scholars. Adijen Krishna Sri Ramanuja Dasansgopan <sgopan (AT) computer (DOT) net> wrote: Sri:Dear BhakthAs :It is my pleasure to share with you Sriman AMR Kannan Swamy'sposting in the Sri Ranga Sri list .V.Sadagopan> Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin,>> Thank you sharing us about the origin of the word Hebbar. That was very> informative.>> You have also mentioned that Sri Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava> when he was born and was born to an advaitin. Could you please refer> some authentic manuscripts regarding this claim? I don't think Sri> Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin.>> We first need to understand the social structure of Sri Ramanuja's days.> In those days everyone who followed the Vedic (vaidika) religion wore> only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme> reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people might have followed> advaita philosophy as well. But the difference between now and then was> whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi you always wore a urdhva> pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality unlike the> present scenario. Therefore whatever the difference between the (present> day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did not exists in those days.> In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the rituals prescribed in> smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. Therefore even if we say that> Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we need to clearly understand> that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping did not exist in those days.> For example those smarthas did not wear thri-pundram. They might have> used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or something else to wear an> urdhva pundram. Another example is those smarthas did not accept other> deities as supreme reality.>> Adiyen still remember the words of Sri Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami> during one of his upanyasams in Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas> (those who follow vedic religion) may dispute among themselves whether> Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or Vishistadvaita is the vedic> philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. But these vaidikas will> never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the supreme reality or some> other deity is the ultimate truth. Because Sriman Narayana's supremacy> is what vedic philosophy and that is what all vaidikas including> Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis believe." But of course the> present day situation is different. We should not gauge those days with> present day's standards.>> Now the question comes, how do we know for sure? We need to read the> great works done by those acharyas. For example, Sri Adhi> Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in particular 2nd chapter> (Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a good place to start about Sri> Shankaracharya's position on various religions practiced in his days.> Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu> Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to read in order to> understand his philosophy.>> But if we want to know the essence of these writings, there are two> excellent books written by Puththur Sri Sudharshanam Sri> Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2.> Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were written with authenticity.> These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to translate them for> everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers for many misconceived> thoughts.>> Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan>>>>===== Original Message From "Sampige Srinivasa" <sampiges (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>> =====>>Dear Sri. Balaji,>>>>Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and> also>>it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he> was>>born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached> Vishistadvaita,>>Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when>>Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it>>spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka.>>>>The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in> the>>Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember> reading>>this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life> of>>Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the> orgin of>>Hebbar Srivaishnavas>>>>During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a>>group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to> convert to>>Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of> Vishistadvaita.>>Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly> Brahmin>>Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar>>Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada>>Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by> the>>teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said.>>>>Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala>>Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar>>Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially,>>Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar>>districts.>>>>They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of> these>>districts. for more info. Please visit> www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net>><http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/>>>>>Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction> towards>>kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the> Divya>>Prabhandams.>>>>But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They> read the>>Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated> to>>Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in> Temples in>>Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are>>residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu>>Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is> lower>>than the Plateau of Karnataka.>>>>I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect>>called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka.>>>>Om namO nArAyanAya>>Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar>>Bengalooru>>>>>>>>>> Groups Links>>>>>>> Honganour Srinivasarangachar Krishna E-Mail: hokrishna Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Dear Swami, The upadEsa rethinamAlai pAsuram : " emperumAnAr dharisanam enREA idhaRku nam-perumAL pEAr ittu nATTi vaithAr, am-puviyOAr indhath dharisanathai, emperumAnAr vaLartha andhach cheyal aRigaikkA'-upadEsa rathinamAlai 38; This great SrEvaishNavic faith is termed as 'emperumAnAr dharisanam' and this name has been given by Sri Nam-PerumAL Himself. This has been given for the sake of Sri RamAnujA having nurtured the faith -vaLartha. It should be observed that Sri maNavALa mAmuigaL has used the term-vaLartha - and not seidha. Sri RAmAnujA did not establish the faith but nurtured and made it in an organised manner. DAsan vanamamalai padmanabhan - Sumithra Varadarajan Oppiliappan Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:10 PM Re: Fw: RE: Origin of Hebbar iyengars Dear Sri Krishna, VishistAdvaita sampradayam is a parama vaidhika matham. Sri Ramanuja only propagated the already existing philosophy. EmperumAnAr was not a founder of Srivaishnavism as you have mentioned. Swamy before writing Sribhasyam took the reference from Bodhayana vriththi grandham that was preserved in the sarada peedam. This bhodhayana vriththi was full and full based on VishistAdvaita principles. That shows that even before Sri Ramanuja VishistAdvaita philosophy was very well there. Swamy only propagated it to the world. Adiyen ramanuja dAsee Sumithra Varadarajan - honganour krishna Oppiliappan ; Srivaishnavam_update ; Thengalaiiyengar ; VEDIC_TALK ; Velukkudi Krishnan ; RAMANUJA GROUPS ; ramanuja mission ; JEEYAR Cc: HONGANUR S SESHADRI ; MYSORE K SRINIVASAN ; SRILATHA SRINIVASAN ; ; HONGANOOR S VENKATESH ; SRINIDHI VENKATESH ; shylaja krishnamurthy ; MR. & MRS. BALAJI ; MR. & MRS. Dr. RAMAPRASAD ; honganour parthasarathy ; SADAGOPAN Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:23 AM Re: Fw: RE: Origin of Hebbar iyengars Swamin: Before Ramanuja there was only Vishnavism, and the philosophy existed was only Advita. Sri Ramanuja made advita into Vishista-advita also called as qualified advita or qualified monoism.He made Vishnavism into Srivishnavisam by giving a place to SRI also known as Godess Lakshmi. Acharya Ramanuja is the founder of Srivishnavism Sect. If you study the Life of Sri Ramanuja, you will find that his Guru taught Ramanuja and his class-mates advita philosophy.Later came Madhwa Charya and his philosophy was Dwaitha also called as Dualism. Before Ramanuja the Red Line signifying Lakshmi or Sri in the center of the Namam did not exist, it was Sri Ramanuja who inserted the Red. It is very clear that Vishsta-advita philosophy did not exist before Sri Ramanuja. I welcome more arguments in this subject from learned Scholars. Adijen Krishna Sri Ramanuja Dasansgopan <sgopan (AT) computer (DOT) net> wrote: Sri:Dear BhakthAs :It is my pleasure to share with you Sriman AMR Kannan Swamy'sposting in the Sri Ranga Sri list .V.Sadagopan> Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin,>> Thank you sharing us about the origin of the word Hebbar. That was very> informative.>> You have also mentioned that Sri Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava> when he was born and was born to an advaitin. Could you please refer> some authentic manuscripts regarding this claim? I don't think Sri> Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin.>> We first need to understand the social structure of Sri Ramanuja's days.> In those days everyone who followed the Vedic (vaidika) religion wore> only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme> reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people might have followed> advaita philosophy as well. But the difference between now and then was> whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi you always wore a urdhva> pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality unlike the> present scenario. Therefore whatever the difference between the (present> day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did not exists in those days.> In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the rituals prescribed in> smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. Therefore even if we say that> Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we need to clearly understand> that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping did not exist in those days.> For example those smarthas did not wear thri-pundram. They might have> used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or something else to wear an> urdhva pundram. Another example is those smarthas did not accept other> deities as supreme reality.>> Adiyen still remember the words of Sri Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami> during one of his upanyasams in Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas> (those who follow vedic religion) may dispute among themselves whether> Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or Vishistadvaita is the vedic> philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. But these vaidikas will> never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the supreme reality or some> other deity is the ultimate truth. Because Sriman Narayana's supremacy> is what vedic philosophy and that is what all vaidikas including> Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis believe." But of course the> present day situation is different. We should not gauge those days with> present day's standards.>> Now the question comes, how do we know for sure? We need to read the> great works done by those acharyas. For example, Sri Adhi> Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in particular 2nd chapter> (Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a good place to start about Sri> Shankaracharya's position on various religions practiced in his days.> Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu> Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to read in order to> understand his philosophy.>> But if we want to know the essence of these writings, there are two> excellent books written by Puththur Sri Sudharshanam Sri> Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2.> Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were written with authenticity.> These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to translate them for> everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers for many misconceived> thoughts.>> Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan>>>>===== Original Message From "Sampige Srinivasa" <sampiges (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>> =====>>Dear Sri. Balaji,>>>>Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and> also>>it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he> was>>born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached> Vishistadvaita,>>Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when>>Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it>>spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka.>>>>The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in> the>>Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember> reading>>this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life> of>>Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the> orgin of>>Hebbar Srivaishnavas>>>>During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a>>group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to> convert to>>Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of> Vishistadvaita.>>Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly> Brahmin>>Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar>>Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada>>Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by> the>>teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said.>>>>Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala>>Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar>>Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially,>>Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar>>districts.>>>>They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of> these>>districts. for more info. Please visit> www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net>><http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/>>>>>Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction> towards>>kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the> Divya>>Prabhandams.>>>>But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They> read the>>Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated> to>>Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in> Temples in>>Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are>>residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu>>Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is> lower>>than the Plateau of Karnataka.>>>>I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect>>called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka.>>>>Om namO nArAyanAya>>Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar>>Bengalooru>>>>>>>>>> Groups Links>>>>>>> Honganour Srinivasarangachar Krishna E-Mail: hokrishna Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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