Fw: [t'venkatam] Tamil origin of "maattu-poNNu": Part II

[Guest guest]

-

"kausalya_puthri" <kausalya_puthri

<tiruvenkatam>

Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:06 AM

[t'venkatam] Tamil origin of "maattu-poNNu"

 

 

SrI:

 

>From the previous mail,

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>I even rarely, nay almost couldn't spot the word, pra-

puthri, the Sanskrit equivalent for daughter-in-law in the Valmiki

text. (If there are any, please bring it to our notice), they called

her puthri, Sita, Mythili etc.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

Same with Tamil too.

One will be surprised to know that no word exists for daughter-in

law in very old dictionaries like Choodamani nigandu. In sangam

literature too (as far as I have read), the patni is referred to as

thalaivi, nayaki etc and very frequently as IllaL (the one who heads

the Ill or house) and rarely we come across a term for daughter-in-

law.

 

But there is a specific noun for her at the time of marriage or for

the newly married girl.

This seems to be the root for maatu-p-peN.

 

In very old times, the bride was known as

"maNAttu -p-peN" (This is found in sentamizh agarathi).

"maNaattu" means the one going to be married. (maN + aattu)

maN means manai, maatchi (about family life)

aattu means `aatti' which is a very ancient term for woman.

 

We find that even terms like peN are derivative of their meanings

(peN means one who is attractive, it is a synonym for `kaanthai'

which also means the same).

But the word `aatti' has existed as it is (idu kuri-p-peyar) from

time immemorial to denote woman in Tamil.

 

The woman who is going to get married was known as

`MaNaattu' (perhaps maNaatti)

and once married, she is

`manaiyaatti' which is commonly used in post sangam literature.

 

Manaiyaatti is the wife and maNaatti is the bride (note the

difference in na-karam and Na-garam)

While the former is about her status in manai (home), the later is

about her status at the time of marriage.

 

Tamil dictionaries do have this word, maNaattu-p-peN denoting bride.

Apart from the derivation mentioned above (maN + aatti), there are

two other roots for this term.

 

One is `maNam' or thirumaNam (marriage).

MaNaattu-p-peN is one who is going to get married or just married.

(maNam + aatti)

 

Another root is `maNNudal' which means (among other meanings) seidal

(makes) alamkariththal (decorates) and seppaniduthal (re-builds)

 

The one who does `maNNudal' is known as maNaatti or maNaattu-p-peN -

an obvious reference to the new kind of life the bride brings to the

groom's life.

 

This maNaattu is found to have changed to maNaatti or maNavaatti in

latter texts. Even now the term maNAvaatti is in vogue in written

Tamil. The masculine for this is maNaaLan or maNavaaLan.

 

This maNaattu could have changed into maattu in due course. Since

maNaattu is no longer in popular usage, we can arrive at this

inference -that maattu has replaced maNaattu.

 

But note that this term is applicable only at the time of marriage,

as how we use the (still-in-use) term for the groom, maNaaLAn. We

don't call one like this after marriage. The same rule applies to

maNaattu-p-peN too.

 

Once married she is `marumaatti' or `maru-magal'. This word,

marumaatti or maru magal is in popular usage. Here again the meaning

of these terms denote the lofty ideal of taking up the bride in to

the family fold as one with others and not as one who `brings'

something along or later.

 

The term maru magal (marumagan or marumaan as masculine gender) has

its root in very ancient literature.

 

The term `maruga' which is used in sangam literature (like in maal

maruga) is not about Murugan or any masculine gender. It is derived

from the meaning ` the one who has come in the marabu or lineage'.

Muruga as maal maruga means one who has come in the lineage of

Thirumaal.

 

Likewise, the marumaaL and marumaan used in our homes, derived

from `marumaatti' or `marumaan' bear the meaning that they are those

who have come in one's marabu or lineage.

 

This meaning is applied to the daughter-in-law too.

The `maNaattu-p-peN' who has entered matrimony is referred to

as `marumaatti' (like the Sanskrit pra-puthri), as one who is now in

our lineage or as one belonging to our lineage. This term latter

became to be known as marumagaL (and marumagan for the son-in-law) in

having absorbed them in the family / lineage.

 

Thus it is improper to call the daughter-in-law as maatu-p-peN, even

as derivative of maNaattu-p-peN, since the relevance is only to her

as a bride.

 

She is now our magal, puthri or maru magal or marumaaL belonging to

our marabu.

 

Even otherwise, the term `maruvudal' as another root of marumaatti,

has relevance in her

`merging with' `mixing with' and `holding to' the new home.

 

 

About mAppillai ( I have not come across this word in literary use),

it could have been maam + pillai in maNipravaaLA use, as this is in

distinct usage only in Brahmin families. Maam, the Sanskrit word

for `to me' - `puthra to me'

 

Or in Tamil as maa = big, senior etc.

 

It must also be known whether this word has any connection with

mopplah of Kerala.

 

 

 

Any mistake in the mails may be pointed out for correction and better

understanding.

 

Regards,

Jayasree saranathan.

[Guest guest]

You seem to have done exhaustive analysis of the simple words like mAttuppeN and mAppiLLai.

My understanding is that the word maattuppeN is the variation of

"mAtru peN", meaning different daughter.

Note that we use the word peN to denote our daughter. Since the

daughter-in-law is equivalent to the daughter, she is referred to as

mAtru peN. Likewise, mAppiLLai is the shortening or the deviation for

mAtru piLLai. Why we don't have the term mAttuppiLLai, I think this is

due to the tendency to shorten the combination of words. MAttuppeN

didn't become mAppeN, may be because it is too short. Along the same

lines, mAttuppiLLai became mAppiLLai, because the former is too long.

Also, as you noted magaL and magan are the true Tamil words for

daughter and son fund in the literature. PeN and piLLai are the

common vocal terms to denote daughter and son.

 

If aatti means a woman in ancient Tamil, where is the need for peN in

peNdAtti? The latter is the common Tamil word for wife.

 

At any rate, your explanations appear to be for the literary people

and the terms in vogue are coined by common, most often, illiterate

people. Let us keep this in mind.

 

Aravamudhan Raman

Isgopan <sgopan (AT) computer (DOT) net> wrote:

- "kausalya_puthri"

<kausalya_puthri (AT) (DOT) co.in><tiruvenkatam>Sent:

Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:06 AM[t'venkatam] Tamil

origin of "maattu-poNNu"SrI:>From the previous mail,>>>>>>>>>>>>I

even rarely, nay almost couldn't spot the word, pra-puthri, the

Sanskrit equivalent for daughter-in-law in the Valmiki text. (If

there are any, please bring it to our notice), they called her

puthri, Sita, Mythili etc.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Same with Tamil too.One

will be surprised to know that no word exists for daughter-in law in

very old dictionaries like Choodamani nigandu. In sangam literature

too (as far as I have read), the patni is referred

to as thalaivi, nayaki etc and very frequently as IllaL (the one who

heads the Ill or house) and rarely we come across a term for

daughter-in-law.But there is a specific noun for her at the time of

marriage or for the newly married girl.This seems to be the root for

maatu-p-peN.In very old times, the bride was known as "maNAttu

-p-peN" (This is found in sentamizh agarathi)."maNaattu" means the

one going to be married. (maN + aattu)maN means manai, maatchi (about

family life)aattu means `aatti' which is a very ancient term for

woman.We find that even terms like peN are derivative of their

meanings (peN means one who is attractive, it is a synonym for

`kaanthai' which also means the same).But the word `aatti' has

existed as it is (idu kuri-p-peyar) from time immemorial to denote

woman in Tamil.The woman who is going to get married was known as

`MaNaattu' (perhaps maNaatti)and once

married, she is `manaiyaatti' which is commonly used in post sangam

literature.Manaiyaatti is the wife and maNaatti is the bride (note

the difference in na-karam and Na-garam)While the former is about her

status in manai (home), the later is about her status at the time of

marriage.Tamil dictionaries do have this word, maNaattu-p-peN

denoting bride. Apart from the derivation mentioned above (maN +

aatti), there are two other roots for this term.One is `maNam' or

thirumaNam (marriage).MaNaattu-p-peN is one who is going to get

married or just married.(maNam + aatti)Another root is `maNNudal'

which means (among other meanings) seidal (makes) alamkariththal

(decorates) and seppaniduthal (re-builds)The one who does `maNNudal'

is known as maNaatti or maNaattu-p-peN - an obvious reference to the

new kind of life the bride brings to the groom's life.This maNaattu is

found to

have changed to maNaatti or maNavaatti in latter texts. Even now the

term maNAvaatti is in vogue in written Tamil. The masculine for this

is maNaaLan or maNavaaLan. This maNaattu could have changed into

maattu in due course. Since maNaattu is no longer in popular usage,

we can arrive at this inference -that maattu has replaced

maNaattu.But note that this term is applicable only at the time of

marriage, as how we use the (still-in-use) term for the groom,

maNaaLAn. We don't call one like this after marriage. The same rule

applies to maNaattu-p-peN too.Once married she is `marumaatti' or

`maru-magal'. This word, marumaatti or maru magal is in popular

usage. Here again the meaning of these terms denote the lofty ideal

of taking up the bride in to the family fold as one with others and

not as one who `brings' something along or later.The term maru magal

(marumagan or marumaan as masculine gender) has

its root in very ancient literature.The term `maruga' which is used in

sangam literature (like in maal maruga) is not about Murugan or any

masculine gender. It is derived from the meaning ` the one who has

come in the marabu or lineage'. Muruga as maal maruga means one who

has come in the lineage of Thirumaal.Likewise, the marumaaL and

marumaan used in our homes, derived from `marumaatti' or `marumaan'

bear the meaning that they are those who have come in one's marabu

or lineage.This meaning is applied to the daughter-in-law too. The

`maNaattu-p-peN' who has entered matrimony is referred to as

`marumaatti' (like the Sanskrit pra-puthri), as one who is now in our

lineage or as one belonging to our lineage. This term latter became to

be known as marumagaL (and marumagan for the son-in-law) in having

absorbed them in the family / lineage.Thus it is improper to call the

daughter-in-law as maatu-p-peN,

even as derivative of maNaattu-p-peN, since the relevance is only to

her as a bride.She is now our magal, puthri or maru magal or marumaaL

belonging to our marabu.Even otherwise, the term `maruvudal' as

another root of marumaatti, has relevance in her `merging with'

`mixing with' and `holding to' the new home.About mAppillai ( I have

not come across this word in literary use), it could have been maam +

pillai in maNipravaaLA use, as this is in distinct usage only in

Brahmin families. Maam, the Sanskrit word for `to me' - `puthra to

me'Or in Tamil as maa = big, senior etc. It must also be known

whether this word has any connection with mopplah of

Kerala.Any

mistake in the mails may be pointed out for correction and better

understanding.Regards,Jayasree

saranathan.

Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Guest guest]

SrI:

Sri Sadagopan swami,

 

I understand your good intentions when you decided to post the two

posts of mine on mattu-p-eN from T'venkatam list to Oppiliappan,

since you must have been following the thread from the beginning.

But reading them out of that thread would give rise to an impression

that it is merely a wasteful exercise in literary usage, as has been

made out in the mail below. As such I request you to weigh the

options before deciding to transfer such mails from one thread to

another group who have no idea of the background.

 

When knowledgeable people themselves slip in understanding what

methodology to apply and where while deciphering a word as mattu-peN,

I can understand how this will be misconstrued when taken out of

context.

 

Besides, I, having known just a bit of Tamil and its usage, am

tempted to point out the error in the assessment in the following

mail, literary though -but the lack of which is sure the cause of

many a mis-interpretation.

 

The word peNdAtti is peNdu + aatti.

Aatti means woman, we know now.

But Pendu, though meaning woman, is actually used in the context

of 'pendALudhal' which means 'manaiviyaaga anubhavitthal'

Thus peNdAtti is used to mean 'the woman who is enjoyed as wife'.

 

We dont find this word used in olden times in casual usage (may be in

private -one to one with wife). They used mostly, manavi or illaL and

not peNdaatti, because that conveys another dimension of woman as a

wife which any person aware of the meaning would not like to use in

common place.

 

Being unaware of it has made it a common word!!

 

Similarly there are a number of things which we must know, the

absence of knowledge of which is the cause for misplaced or wrong

knowledge.

 

Another instance that comes to my mind is 'chara' in dharmam chara'

which was not told as dharmam kuru. It is because Bheeshma failed

to 'move'(charathi) along with DHARMA, during Draupadi's

vasthrahaaran, a great misfortune was not thwarted.

 

Similarly, the notion on shudras,(pl refer my 3rd mail in the woman &

vedas series)about which Ramanuja wrote (learnt)one as commentary but

followed something else in life(this is found as an impondarable by

me in that mail) But recently I found the justification from none

other than Choodamani nigandu in the form of a verse which outlines 6

works or duties for a shudra. Surprisingly none of this about the

popular notion about shudra and even in BG (chapter 18) bahgavan

hints at how swabhava determines work. As such I am sure RAmanuja

must have been aware of this Nigandu sutra while bringing out a

change in the mindset about shudras.

 

For commoners like me, this literary basis comes as a surprise as to

why and how people all these days had net realised the mistake in the

notion they have held about shudras. If they have known, or that

knowledge had been trasferred properly, things would not have come to

such a pass leading to social strains.

 

And thus it goes.

And my humble request mentioned in the beginning.

 

Regards,

jayasree saranathan

 

Oppiliappan, Ara Ram <aravaram> wrote:

> Dear Jayasree Saranathan:

>

> You seem to have done exhaustive analysis of the simple words like

mAttuppeN and mAppiLLai.

> My understanding is that the word maattuppeN is the variation

of "mAtru peN", meaning different daughter.

> Note that we use the word peN to denote our daughter. Since the

daughter-in-law is equivalent to the daughter, she is referred to as

mAtru peN. Likewise, mAppiLLai is the shortening or the deviation for

mAtru piLLai. Why we don't have the term mAttuppiLLai, I think this

is due to the tendency to shorten the combination of words. MAttuppeN

didn't become mAppeN, may be because it is too short. Along the same

lines, mAttuppiLLai became mAppiLLai, because the former is too long.

Also, as you noted magaL and magan are the true Tamil words for

daughter and son fund in the literature. PeN and piLLai are the

common vocal terms to denote daughter and son.

>

> If aatti means a woman in ancient Tamil, where is the need for peN

in peNdAtti? The latter is the common Tamil word for wife.

>

> At any rate, your explanations appear to be for the literary people

and the terms in vogue are coined by common, most often, illiterate

people. Let us keep this in mind.

>

> Aravamudhan Raman

> I

>

> sgopan <sgopan@c...> wrote:

>

> -

> "kausalya_puthri" <kausalya_puthri>

> <tiruvenkatam>

> Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:06 AM

> [t'venkatam] Tamil origin of "maattu-poNNu"

>

>

> SrI:

>

> >From the previous mail,

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>I even rarely, nay almost couldn't spot the word, pra-

> puthri, the Sanskrit equivalent for daughter-in-law in the Valmiki

> text. (If there are any, please bring it to our notice), they

called

> her puthri, Sita, Mythili etc.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>

> Same with Tamil too.

> One will be surprised to know that no word exists for daughter-in

> law in very old dictionaries like Choodamani nigandu. In sangam

> literature too (as far as I have read), the patni is referred to as

> thalaivi, nayaki etc and very frequently as IllaL (the one who

heads

> the Ill or house) and rarely we come across a term for daughter-in-

> law.

>

> But there is a specific noun for her at the time of marriage or for

> the newly married girl.

> This seems to be the root for maatu-p-peN.

>

> In very old times, the bride was known as

> "maNAttu -p-peN" (This is found in sentamizh agarathi).

> "maNaattu" means the one going to be married. (maN + aattu)

> maN means manai, maatchi (about family life)

> aattu means `aatti' which is a very ancient term for woman.

>

> We find that even terms like peN are derivative of their meanings

> (peN means one who is attractive, it is a synonym for `kaanthai'

> which also means the same).

> But the word `aatti' has existed as it is (idu kuri-p-peyar) from

> time immemorial to denote woman in Tamil.

>

> The woman who is going to get married was known as

> `MaNaattu' (perhaps maNaatti)

> and once married, she is

> `manaiyaatti' which is commonly used in post sangam literature.

>

> Manaiyaatti is the wife and maNaatti is the bride (note the

> difference in na-karam and Na-garam)

> While the former is about her status in manai (home), the later is

> about her status at the time of marriage.

>

> Tamil dictionaries do have this word, maNaattu-p-peN denoting

bride.

> Apart from the derivation mentioned above (maN + aatti), there are

> two other roots for this term.

>

> One is `maNam' or thirumaNam (marriage).

> MaNaattu-p-peN is one who is going to get married or just married.

> (maNam + aatti)

>

> Another root is `maNNudal' which means (among other meanings)

seidal

> (makes) alamkariththal (decorates) and seppaniduthal (re-builds)

>

> The one who does `maNNudal' is known as maNaatti or maNaattu-p-

peN -

> an obvious reference to the new kind of life the bride brings to

the

> groom's life.

>

> This maNaattu is found to have changed to maNaatti or maNavaatti in

> latter texts. Even now the term maNAvaatti is in vogue in written

> Tamil. The masculine for this is maNaaLan or maNavaaLan.

>

> This maNaattu could have changed into maattu in due course. Since

> maNaattu is no longer in popular usage, we can arrive at this

> inference -that maattu has replaced maNaattu.

>

> But note that this term is applicable only at the time of marriage,

> as how we use the (still-in-use) term for the groom, maNaaLAn. We

> don't call one like this after marriage. The same rule applies to

> maNaattu-p-peN too.

>

> Once married she is `marumaatti' or `maru-magal'. This word,

> marumaatti or maru magal is in popular usage. Here again the

meaning

> of these terms denote the lofty ideal of taking up the bride in to

> the family fold as one with others and not as one who `brings'

> something along or later.

>

> The term maru magal (marumagan or marumaan as masculine gender) has

> its root in very ancient literature.

>

> The term `maruga' which is used in sangam literature (like in maal

> maruga) is not about Murugan or any masculine gender. It is derived

> from the meaning ` the one who has come in the marabu or lineage'.

> Muruga as maal maruga means one who has come in the lineage of

> Thirumaal.

>

> Likewise, the marumaaL and marumaan used in our homes, derived

> from `marumaatti' or `marumaan' bear the meaning that they are

those

> who have come in one's marabu or lineage.

>

> This meaning is applied to the daughter-in-law too.

> The `maNaattu-p-peN' who has entered matrimony is referred to

> as `marumaatti' (like the Sanskrit pra-puthri), as one who is now

in

> our lineage or as one belonging to our lineage. This term latter

> became to be known as marumagaL (and marumagan for the son-in-law)

in

> having absorbed them in the family / lineage.

>

> Thus it is improper to call the daughter-in-law as maatu-p-peN,

even

> as derivative of maNaattu-p-peN, since the relevance is only to her

> as a bride.

>

> She is now our magal, puthri or maru magal or marumaaL belonging to

> our marabu.

>

> Even otherwise, the term `maruvudal' as another root of

marumaatti,

> has relevance in her

> `merging with' `mixing with' and `holding to' the new home.

>

>

> About mAppillai ( I have not come across this word in literary

use),

> it could have been maam + pillai in maNipravaaLA use, as this is in

> distinct usage only in Brahmin families. Maam, the Sanskrit word

> for `to me' - `puthra to me'

>

> Or in Tamil as maa = big, senior etc.

>

> It must also be known whether this word has any connection with

> mopplah of Kerala.

>

>

>

>

> Any mistake in the mails may be pointed out for correction and

better

> understanding.

>

> Regards,

> Jayasree saranathan.

>

>

>

>

>

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