re: raama a brahmachari

[Guest guest]

Dear sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer and smt. Jayasree saranathan

 

On this word `naishtika' the Monier Williams dictionary reads

naishtika

• 2. mf(i)n. forming the end, final, last MBh. Hariv. Ragh.

• definitive, fixed, firm MBh. R. Yājñ.

• highest, perfect, complete MBh. Kāv. Pur. (-sundara mfn. perfectly

beautiful Kum. v, 62)

• completely versed in or familiar with (comp.) Var.

• belonging to the character or office of a perpetual student W.

• m. a perpetual religious student or Brāhman who observes the vow of

chastity Rājat. BhP.

 

Since hanumaan and bhishma stood `fixed', `firm', `perfect' in their

brahmacharya vratham they are called naishtika brahmacharies. But

manu dharma saasthram on this naishtika brahmacharya says slightly

different.

 

4.4.8 Naishtika brahmacarya

But if (a student) desires to pass his whole life in the teacher's

house, he must diligently serve him, until he is freed from this

body. [v.2.243.]

 

A Brahmana who serves his teacher till the dissolution of his body,

reaches forthwith the eternal mansion of Brahman. [v.2.244.]

 

He who knows the sacred law must not present any gift to his teacher

before (the Samavartana); but when, with the permission of his

teacher, he is about to take the (final) bath, let him procure (a

present) for the venerable man according to his ability, [v.2.245.]

(Viz.) a field, gold, a cow, a horse, a parasol and shoes, a seat,

grain, (even) vegetables, (and thus) give pleasure to his teacher.

[v.2.246.]

 

(A perpetual student) must, if his teacher dies, serve his son

(provided he be) endowed with good qualities, or his widow, or his

Sapinda, in the same manner as the teacher. [v.2.247.]

 

Should none of these be alive, he must serve the sacred fire,

standing (by day) and sitting (during the night), and thus finish his

life. [v.2.248.]

 

A Brahmana who thus passes his life as a student without breaking his

vow, reaches (after death) the highest abode and will not be born

again in this world. [v.2.249.] Vritti: Brahma loka.

 

Note: If this manu's rule is applied to both hanumaan and bhishma,

both fail since both were not residing in their preceptor's place

till their end of life [did not spend their life in guru's place]. To

a large extent it can be said that hanumaan followed the `naishtika

brahmacharya' rule as per manu, since his guru is soorya and he was

[and is] serving `ina kula thilaka' raghuraama even now – "yathra

yathra raghunaatha keerthanam thathra thathra ----". so he is in a

way naishtika brahmachari.

 

But same cannot definitely be said about bhishma since he was all the

time serving the royal seat of hasthinapur than his guru parasuraama.

 

Dhasan

vasudevan m.g.

[Guest guest]

Dear sri tatachar swamy and sri vaishnava perunthagaiyeer,

 

Sri tatachar swamy says "it does not have much bearing in the present

context'. I do not really understand what is the `present context' as

mentioned by sri tatachar swamy. Is it

1. Whether on hanuman removing the doubts of seethaa on chastity

of raamaa

2. the reference and points on `grihastha brahmacharya',

3. The present day world happenings around and to talk on

grihastha brahmacharya

I am not able to comprehend.

 

Sri hanumaan says `brahmacharya vrathE sthhitha:', while describing

raama's roopam. That description of raama and lakshmaNa roopam is in

reply to seethaa's question of `how the friendship between vaanaraas

and raama happened, how do you know lakshmaNa, what are raama's

specific features or symbols or `chinnaani', what are lakshmaNaa's,

and the question of `katham ooru, katham baahu? Meaning - How is his

thighs and shoulders?

 

Seethaa wants to hear the physical description so that by hearing

that, she says `I will remove my sOkam'. This description of raama

roopam was extensively covered in my `andha raama soundharyam' series

under title `lotus failed'. Actually she wants to know in detail how

the friendship happened, and to what extent hanumaan has seen raama

and lakshmana. These questions are placed by seetha

1. to remove her sOkam as she herself says.

2. mainly to remove her doubt of whether raavaNa has come in

disguise describing about character of raama to please her, [having

heard about raama thru his own spies and or thru soorpanaka, or

learnt from maareechan, the golden deer].

and NOT to know from / or question hanumaan about her raamaa's

chastity or express her doubts.

 

So there is no need for hanumaan to say that raama is

observing `brahmacharya vratham'. Also seethaa has already heard

raama's `guNa nalangaL', character aspects of raama being described

by hanumaan, but remaining is physical descriptions only.

 

Further as already referred to in the slOkam of adhyaathma raamayaNam

[re line of control series – which is not found in vaalmeeki's] raama

has already informed seethaa that she has to be separate from him

till the completion of raavaNa killing. So his viraha vEdhana

is `well played drama'.

 

So what `context' sri swamy refers I am not able to understand. Can

swamy clarify / explain once again what context he refers to..

Dhasan

Vasudevan m.g.

[Guest guest]

Dear sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer and smt. Jayasree saranathan

 

On this word `naishtika' the Monier Williams dictionary reads

naishtika

• 2. mf(i)n. forming the end, final, last MBh. Hariv. Ragh.

• definitive, fixed, firm MBh. R. Yājñ.

• highest, perfect, complete MBh. Kāv. Pur. (-sundara mfn. perfectly

beautiful Kum. v, 62)

• completely versed in or familiar with (comp.) Var.

• belonging to the character or office of a perpetual student W.

• m. a perpetual religious student or Brāhman who observes the vow of

chastity Rājat. BhP.

 

Since hanumaan and bhishma stood `fixed', `firm', `perfect' in their

brahmacharya vratham they are called naishtika brahmacharies. But

manu dharma saasthram on this naishtika brahmacharya says slightly

different.

 

4.4.8 Naishtika brahmacarya

But if (a student) desires to pass his whole life in the teacher's

house, he must diligently serve him, until he is freed from this

body. [v.2.243.]

 

A Brahmana who serves his teacher till the dissolution of his body,

reaches forthwith the eternal mansion of Brahman. [v.2.244.]

 

He who knows the sacred law must not present any gift to his teacher

before (the Samavartana); but when, with the permission of his

teacher, he is about to take the (final) bath, let him procure (a

present) for the venerable man according to his ability, [v.2.245.]

(Viz.) a field, gold, a cow, a horse, a parasol and shoes, a seat,

grain, (even) vegetables, (and thus) give pleasure to his teacher.

[v.2.246.]

 

(A perpetual student) must, if his teacher dies, serve his son

(provided he be) endowed with good qualities, or his widow, or his

Sapinda, in the same manner as the teacher. [v.2.247.]

 

Should none of these be alive, he must serve the sacred fire,

standing (by day) and sitting (during the night), and thus finish his

life. [v.2.248.]

 

A Brahmana who thus passes his life as a student without breaking his

vow, reaches (after death) the highest abode and will not be born

again in this world. [v.2.249.] Vritti: Brahma loka.

 

Note: If this manu's rule is applied to both hanumaan and bhishma,

both fail since both were not residing in their preceptor's place

till their end of life [did not spend their life in guru's place]. To

a large extent it can be said that hanumaan followed the `naishtika

brahmacharya' rule as per manu, since his guru is soorya and he was

[and is] serving `ina kula thilaka' raghuraama even now – "yathra

yathra raghunaatha keerthanam thathra thathra ----". so he is in a

way naishtika brahmachari.

 

But same cannot definitely be said about bhishma since he was all the

time serving the royal seat of hasthinapur than his guru parasuraama.

 

Dhasan

vasudevan m.g.

[Guest guest]

Dear smt jayasree

instead of myself answering your question i will give the extract of srimadh

bhaagavatham tenth canto chpater 45 - this extract is from

www.srimadbhagavatam.org. [the numbers in brackets are the slokam numbers.

 

(25) Thus addressed by the two of Them embraced Nanda Them, engulfed by

affection, with tears filling his eyes and went he with the gopas to Vraja. (26)

Then had the son of S'ûrasena [Vasudeva], o King, by a priest and brahmins for

his sons the second-birth-initiation properly performed. (27) He donated to them

in worship, to their full ornate, for remuneration cows with golden chains and

ornaments complete with calves and garlands of flowers of flax. (28) He,

magnanimous, gave them in charity the cows that were stolen away by Kamsa, which

he had donated in his mind on the day that Krishna and Râma were born [see

3.10-11-12]. (29) After by initiation having attained the twice-born status,

took They, sincere in Their vows from Garga, the preceptor of the Yadus, the vow

of celibacy [to be a student, see also gâyatrî and brahmacârya]. (30-31) As the

Lords of the Universe of all being the origin and in knowledge being omniscient

did They, by their human like activities concealing the impeccable knowledge

that was achieved from no other source, then desire to live at the school of the

guru native to Kâsî [benares] named Sândîpani who dwelt in the city of Avantî

[ujjain]. (32) The spiritual teacher to that circumstance getting Them in

self-restraint, was by Them, who approaching for service respected him as if he

were the Lord, indeed with Their devotion used to set an irreproachable example

for others. (33) Their highest one of the twiceborn satisfied with their pure

love and submissive acts taught as their guru Them all the Veda's with their

corollary literatures and philosophical treatises, [**] (34) the Dhanur-veda

[military science, archery] along with all its secrets [the mantras], the dharma

[codes of human conduct, the laws] and the nyâya [the methods of logic] as also

ânvîkshikîm [the knowledge of philosophical debate or tarka] and the six aspects

of râja-nîtim [political science, see ***]. (35-36) As the best of all first

class persons and of all knowledge the promulgators did They, o ruler of man,

fixed in concentration fully assimilate, simply having it related once, in as

many days and nights the complete of the sixty-four arts [*4] and offered They

satisfied their preceptor, o King, compensation [gurudakshinâ]. (37) The

twiceborn man, in due consideration of that amazing greatness of Their super

human intelligence, o King, after consulting with his wife, arrived at the wish

for his child that had perished in the ocean at Prabhâsa [see also 1.15: 49,

3.1: 20, 3.3: 25]. (38) Saying 'So be it' mounted the two great charioteers of

unlimited prowess then a chariot and walked they, reaching there, up to the

shore to sit down for a moment, upon which the ocean in recognition brought Them

offerings of tribute [compare 9.10: 13]. (39) To him said the Supreme Lord: 'At

once present Us the son of our guru, a young boy, whom by you with a mighty wave

has been seized here.'

(40) The person of the ocean said: 'It was not I who took him away, o Lord, it

was a powerful daitya named Pañcajana, o Krishna, a demon who roams in the water

assuming the form of a conch. (41) By him living here has he indeed been taken

away'.

Hearing that hurried the Master into the water and killed He him, but the boy He

couldn't find in his belly. (42-44) Taking the conchshell, that had grown as a

part of the demon, returned He to the chariot and left He for the beloved city

of Yamarâja [the Lord of death] known as Samyamani [*5]. On His way being

accompanied by Him who has the Plow for His Weapon [balarâma], blew Janârdana

loudly on the conchshell [see also B.G. 1: 15] whose sound was heard by

Yamarâja, the restrainer of the ones born. Overflowing with devotion performed

he elaborate worship for Them and said he humbly, bowing down to Krishna who

dwells in each his heart: 'What can I do for the two of You, o Vishnu, who

appeared as human beings?

 

(45) The Supreme Lord said: 'Please bring the son of My guru taken from here to

suffer the bondage of his karma, o great King; it is My command that should be

given priority'.

(46) 'Let it be so' he said and brought forth the preceptor's son. The Best of

the Yadus then gave him back to Their guru whom They so said: 'Please make a

another wish'.

(47) The honorable guru said: 'I am completely fulfilled, my Boys, by the

remuneration for the guru of the two of You; what else would there for the

spiritual master of Persons like You be left to desire? (48) Please go to Your

home, o heroes, may Your fame purify and may the words of Your delight [the

mantras, the vedic hymns] be ever fresh ['never die away' or 'never be

forgotten'] in this life and in the next!'[see also: 10.13: 2]

(49) Thus by Their guru permitted to leave, reached They on their chariot fast

as the wind and thundering like a cloud their city. (50) The citizens seeing

Râma and Janârdana, not having seen them for many days, all rejoiced like ones

who having lost their wealth had regained it.

 

So krishNa paid the guru dhakshina of the dead son of guru being brought back to

life.

 

The lord only can do that and perhaps this will be the ONLY ONE GURU DHAKSHINA

which can NEVER be done by any other student born or to be born [except my

krishna if he is to be born again].

 

To answer the second part of the question naishtika brahmachary - see this

paragraph - this is from chapter 90 srimad bhagavatham

28) This manner proceeding to the dharma as expressed by the Vedas, demonstrated

He, the Goal of the Saintly, how one's home is there as the place for the

religiosity, the economic development and the regulation of sense-gratification

[the purusârthas] <../glossary/p.html>. (29) Of Krishna being situated in the

highest dharma of a householders life, where there over sixteen thousand and one

hundred queens [see also 10.59** <chapter59.html>and 7.14

<../canto7/chapter14.html>]. (30) Among them there were eight gems of women

headed by Rukminî whom I along with their sons one after the other described

previously [see 10.83 <chapter83.html> en 10.61: 8-19 <chapter61.html>], o King.

(31) In each of His many wives begot Krishna, the Supreme Lord Never Failing in

His Effort, ten sons [and one daughter]. (32) Of these there were eighteen

mahârathas <../glossary/m.html> of an unlimited prowess, whose fame spread wide;

hear their names from me. (33-34)

 

On that krishNa is said to be a 'naishtika brahmachari' and the story of

parikshith, i also heard same, and, wrote in my earlier write up also.

 

On this, one Sri mukunda dasa a member of the group, asked me in a private mail

'can you add the evidence from srimadh bhagavatham or any other reference'.

since i am not able to lay hands on that reference, i simply kept queit without

answering him. now perhaps when Mr. dasa reads this mail he will be convinced

why i did not answer him.

 

I welcome the reference from the group members.

 

dhasan vasudevan m.g

 

Original Message notify [ notify]On

Behalf Of jayasartn

Monday, November 14, 2005 7:53 AM

M.G.Vasudevan

Re: raama a brahmachari

SrI: Respected swamin, I agree with your mail.

But kindly look into Krishna's case too as He, as Naishtika

brahmachari saved ParIkshith in the womb. That is how I have heard

the story. There is something else to the meaning of naishtikam, I think.

One thought- did Krishna pay His Guru dhakshina? If so what? If not

so, perhaps that might give one dimension of naishtikam. Since He has

not paid, it is inferred He continues to be the student. Regards, jayasree

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear smt.Jayasree,

The slokam no 12 of sargam 35 is that, which reads

 

archishmaanarchithO~thyarthha brahmacharyavrathE sthitha:

saadhoonaamypakaarajna: prachaarajna karmaNaam ||

 

what i am using is geetha press second edition of vikrama abhdha - means vikaram

varsham [like present paarthiva]

 

May be i quoted wrongly the number as slokam 12 of 32nd sargam. please excuse me

for that.

 

dhasan

vasudevan m.g.

 

also i find that certain slokam and sargam numbers are different in the internet

version of ramayanam thru the link given in www.sankrit.gde.to [ not the site of

www.valmikiramayan.net]

 

 

Message: 19 Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:30:02 -0000

"jayasartn" <jayasree.saranathan

Re: raama a brahmachaari

SrI: Respected Swamin,

Can you please check and tell me in which sargam the following verse on

RAma's brahmacharyam is mentioned. As per Tamil transliteration I use,

sargam 32 is about Sita's doubt on Hanuman's swaroopam and there is

hardly any mention of Rama by Hanuman in this sargam. But the

description is found in sargam 36, where Hanuman describes how Rama is

laeading a life of an ascetic. There he says that he eats only the

yields of woods like a vaanapprasthan.

 

Nowhere in Sundhara can I find a mention of Rama leading a life of

Brahmacharin. kIndly look into this and clarify.

 

Regards,

jayasree saranathan

 

 

 

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proprietary.Information in this mail is for L&T Business Usage only. Any Use to

other than the addressee is misuse and infringement to Proprietorship of L&T

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