Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 dear shri padmanabhan, thanks foryour feedback. as for the "Aaru vaarthai", though we have the six answers furnished by Perarulaalan, we do not appear to have the precise questions asked, nor do we know that they were six in number. i shall be grateful for any additional light you can throw on the matter. regards, dasan, sadagopan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. There are 3 questions involved in this. (1) whether this is about 6 questions or not. (2) Whether the questions were openly raised or not / or the answers were provided by Deva-p-perumaL by mind-reading Ilaiaazhwar. (3)Under what category of 5 questions, these questions come under. Attempting to reply them.. (1) Since by tradition, the 'Aaru vaarthai' exits, this is enough proof that there were 6 questions or issues for which Illaiaazhwar wanted PerumAL to answer. (2) Going by the accounts on this incident, (those who have access to original manuscripts, please reproduce them to know how the events unfolded. Here I am going by the account given by Sri Desoor Nallaan Chakravarthy Srinivasa Varadhan, former adhyaapaka of Sri Parthasarathy sannidhi, Triplicane, in his book " Deva-p-perumALum, IrAmAnusa DharshaNamum" 1973 edition, Ratnam press) Illaiyaazhwar expressed his 'mana-klesham' to Thirukkachchi NambigaL and requested him to get replies from dEva-p-perumAl. Here a question may arise why Ramanuja himself didn't ask PerumAL. The reply to this question contains all answers on this issue. Ramanuja was then passing through a difficult period in his sojourn. It was on the suggestion of his mother, he approached Thirikkacchi NambigaL since he was close to Deva-p-perumAL ('andharangar to Deva-p-perumAL'). He has just then received the biggest blow of not being able to surrender unto SrI AlavandhAr, in him having left for Thiru nAdu. It was Thirukkachchi NambigaL who consoled him that PeraruLALan would certainly show him the way and assured that he need not entertain any fear ("anja vEndaa"). It is for the kind of relationship that NambigaL enjoyed with Deva-p-perumAL and he enjoyed with Illaiaazhwar, that things took this shape. Ramanuja placed his request to NambigaL and NambigaL conveyed the request to PerumAL. When we, the simple mortals have been blessed by Him by receiving guidance when needed, without even asking for them, there is no need to doubt whether the questions were put forth by mouth or not. If we look at the supreme connection between Uadayavar and Deva-p-perumAL, we know that this was the time chosen by Him to get-start the mission of Ramanuja. Because after receiving these Aaru vaarthai only, Bhagavad Ramanuja's Avatara mission started, by receiving pancha samakaaram at Madhuranthakam. So we conclude that PerumAL gave the Aru vaarthai, to satisfy the 6 questions that were in Ramanuja's mind. This is further supported by NambigaL's enquiry when he conveyed the replies to Ramanuja, whether these were the thoughts in Ramanuja's mind. This shows NambigaL had not known the questions. He has only conveyed Ramanuja's ViNNappam to PerumaL and re-conveyed what the Lord had answered. (3) What were the Aru vaarthai? Bhagavan never says anything which are incomprehensible to His subjects. He may give them concealed, but never out of their reach. Particularly, at this important juncture in Avatara mission of Srimad Ramanuja, Bahgavan will utter in such a way, that posterity (we , the ordinary mortals too) understand His upadesam. Looking at the Aru vaarthai, we automatically get to know the questions. The first two (not given in Sri Padmanabhan's mail) were to do with Ramanuja's klEsham arising from altercations with Yadhava prakaasha. The first vaarthai :- "BedhamE dharshaNam" >From this the question is deduced – " What is right, bedham or abedham? ( Or) What is Dharshanam? (This arises from the then existing allegiance to abdEdha arguments promoted by Purva pakshins) The 2nd vaarthai :- "Para-tattwam naame" >From this, the question deduced is – "Who then is supreme?" (or) "Which is para-tattwam?" (Here again Ramanuja would have wondered about how to reconcile the Mandukya advaitic passages with the oft repeated upanishadic verses of two birds sitting on a tree, one shining and the other eating karma) Bhagavan has sided with the 2-bird theory, thereby giving a clear signal on how to proceed, as this forms the basis of the doctrine of Seshatwam. This clarity given by Bhagavan is seen to be reflected in the final passages of Brahma sutra, where Ramanuja effectively establishes the 'no' to cosmic activity for the Released soul. These two form the basis of Emperumaanaar dharshanam. These are about the "End" and the other 4 ( already mentioned in Sri Padmanabhan's mail) are only about the other features that shaped 'process' or 'means' to attain Him. On the basis of this, my humble conclusion is that these two vaarthaigaL must have very much been the Declaratory vaarthaigaL of Bhagavaan. Now the derivation of the 3rd question. The 3rd vaarthai is – "Upaayamum prapatthiyE" The obvious question is " Which is the upaayam" (Because there were as many as 32 vidyas or methods of doing bhakti like Dahara vidya, Madhu vidya etc, approved by Upanishads. But they were all to be followed with strict austerities. Therefore Bhagavad concurrence was needed for an easy upaayam to be promoted among the masses.) The 4th vaarthai:- "Anthima smruthiyum vEndA" The deduced questions is :- "Does one need to think of Him at the time of death?" This question must have prompted by Gita vachan on what one thinks at the time of death, one gets after death. What kind of salvation can an ordinary mortal get, who can not think of Him at the final moments. This is the genuine and compassionate concern for ordinary people like us, that must have troubled Ilaaiyaazhwar. Bhagavan gave the green the signal. The 5th vaarthai :- "SharIra avanAshatthilE Moksham" The deduced question is :- " When does moksham occur?" It is after the destroyal of body. Which body? Just the mortal body or the body that carries works and gunas with it? It is here Bhagavad Ramanuja formulated his prescription for how to shed the body with all its attached materials. It is hereby "sarva phala tyaagam" outlined by Bhagavan at the battle field is held as the supreme way to achieve it. The 6 th vaarthai:- "Peria Nambi ThiruvadigaLilE Ashrayippadu." The obvious question is " To which Acharyan, should I surrender?" The back ground details shed more light. Sri ALAvandhaar has left. Ramanuja had made a pledge that he would fulfill ALavandhaar's wishes and found his folded fingers straighten on making this pledge. There were obstacles to make all the wishes happen. But he had the word of consolation fromPeriya nimbi "ShrEyOmsi bahu vignAni bhavanthi mahathaam api" ( many obstacles do come in the way of people of shereyas – but he must not lose his heart.). Such was the troubled time for our Udayavar. Coming to the question to which of the 5 questions did Ramanuja's 6- questions belong, here is the reasoning. When NambhigaL made the ViNNappam, to PerumaL, He thought "The one who knows in detail all these, is asking Me as how I asked Saandheepani (in krishnaavathara)" and decided to clear his samshayam. Since Bhagavan Himself was said to have compared Ramanuja's questioning with Himself questioning Sage Saandeepani in Krishnaavatara, it is 100% clear that Ramanuja knows the answers. And even other wise we know that he has known the answers and only that he wanted concurrence from Perumaal. He wanted to be 100% sure. ViDaiyai-th-thandavan vishayatthil irukkum – adu That was about clearing Ramanuja's samshayam - doubt whether he has got them all right. Since Bhagavan made ThiruvulLAm to remove his 'klEsham', it is known that it was for the purpose of removing whatever little doubt is there in his mind. Added to this is the 6 th question, as Ramanuja must have been feeling rudder-less. Bhagavan has given the assurance and also the go-ahead signal by these aaru vaarthaigaL. That is why this comes under 'Iyyam theerdal' - asking to clear doubts, like how Yudhishtira asked Bheeshma, something discussed By Sri Sadagopan Iyengar in his mail on 6 questions. Regards, Jayasree saranathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Dear Mrs Jayashree Saranathan, Thanks a lot.That was what I had wanted dAsan vanamamalai padmanabhan - "Jayasree Saranathan" <jayasree.saranathan "sadagopaniyengar" <sadagopaniyengar; <oppiliappan> Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:15 PM Re: The Six Questions > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. > > > There are 3 questions involved in this. > > (1) whether this is about 6 questions or not. > > (2) Whether the questions were openly raised or not / or the answers > were provided by Deva-p-perumaL by mind-reading Ilaiaazhwar. > > (3)Under what category of 5 questions, these questions come under. > > Attempting to reply them.. > > (1) Since by tradition, the 'Aaru vaarthai' exits, this is enough > proof that there were 6 questions or issues for which Illaiaazhwar > wanted PerumAL to answer. > > (2) Going by the accounts on this incident, (those who have access to > original manuscripts, please reproduce them to know how the events > unfolded. Here I am going by the account given by Sri Desoor Nallaan > Chakravarthy Srinivasa Varadhan, former adhyaapaka of Sri > Parthasarathy sannidhi, Triplicane, in his book " Deva-p-perumALum, > IrAmAnusa DharshaNamum" 1973 edition, Ratnam press) Illaiyaazhwar > expressed his 'mana-klesham' to Thirukkachchi NambigaL and requested > him to get replies from dEva-p-perumAl. Here a question may arise why > Ramanuja himself didn't ask PerumAL. The reply to this question > contains all answers on this issue. > > Ramanuja was then passing through a difficult period in his sojourn. > It was on the suggestion of his mother, he approached Thirikkacchi > NambigaL since he was close to Deva-p-perumAL ('andharangar to > Deva-p-perumAL'). > > He has just then received the biggest blow of not being able to > surrender unto SrI AlavandhAr, in him having left for Thiru nAdu. It > was Thirukkachchi NambigaL who consoled him that PeraruLALan would > certainly show him the way and assured that he need not entertain any > fear ("anja vEndaa"). It is for the kind of relationship that NambigaL > enjoyed with Deva-p-perumAL and he enjoyed with Illaiaazhwar, that > things took this shape. Ramanuja placed his request to NambigaL and > NambigaL conveyed the request to PerumAL. When we, the simple mortals > have been blessed by Him by receiving guidance when needed, without > even asking for them, there is no need to doubt whether the questions > were put forth by mouth or not. If we look at the supreme connection > between Uadayavar and Deva-p-perumAL, we know that this was the time > chosen by Him to get-start the mission of Ramanuja. Because after > receiving these Aaru vaarthai only, Bhagavad Ramanuja's Avatara > mission started, by receiving pancha samakaaram at Madhuranthakam. So > we conclude that PerumAL gave the Aru vaarthai, to satisfy the 6 > questions that were in Ramanuja's mind. > > This is further supported by NambigaL's enquiry when he conveyed the > replies to Ramanuja, whether these were the thoughts in Ramanuja's > mind. This shows NambigaL had not known the questions. He has only > conveyed Ramanuja's ViNNappam to PerumaL and re-conveyed what the > Lord had answered. > > (3) What were the Aru vaarthai? Bhagavan never says anything which are > incomprehensible to His subjects. He may give them concealed, but > never out of their reach. Particularly, at this important juncture in > Avatara mission of Srimad Ramanuja, Bahgavan will utter in such a way, > that posterity (we , the ordinary mortals too) understand His > upadesam. > > Looking at the Aru vaarthai, we automatically get to know the questions. > > The first two (not given in Sri Padmanabhan's mail) were to do with > Ramanuja's klEsham arising from altercations with Yadhava prakaasha. > > The first vaarthai :- "BedhamE dharshaNam" > From this the question is deduced – " What is right, bedham or > abedham? ( Or) What is Dharshanam? (This arises from the then > existing allegiance to abdEdha arguments promoted by Purva pakshins) > > The 2nd vaarthai :- "Para-tattwam naame" > From this, the question deduced is – "Who then is supreme?" (or) > "Which is para-tattwam?" (Here again Ramanuja would have wondered > about how to reconcile the Mandukya advaitic passages with the oft > repeated upanishadic verses of two birds sitting on a tree, one > shining and the other eating karma) Bhagavan has sided with the 2-bird > theory, thereby giving a clear signal on how to proceed, as this forms > the basis of the doctrine of Seshatwam. This clarity given by > Bhagavan is seen to be reflected in the final passages of Brahma > sutra, where Ramanuja effectively establishes the 'no' to cosmic > activity for the Released soul. > > These two form the basis of Emperumaanaar dharshanam. These are about > the "End" and the other 4 ( already mentioned in Sri Padmanabhan's > mail) are only about the other features that shaped 'process' or > 'means' to attain Him. On the basis of this, my humble conclusion is > that these two vaarthaigaL must have very much been the Declaratory > vaarthaigaL of Bhagavaan. > > Now the derivation of the 3rd question. > The 3rd vaarthai is – "Upaayamum prapatthiyE" > The obvious question is " Which is the upaayam" (Because there were as > many as 32 vidyas or methods of doing bhakti like Dahara vidya, Madhu > vidya etc, approved by Upanishads. But they were all to be followed > with strict austerities. Therefore Bhagavad concurrence was needed for > an easy upaayam to be promoted among the masses.) > > The 4th vaarthai:- "Anthima smruthiyum vEndA" > The deduced questions is :- "Does one need to think of Him at the time > of death?" > This question must have prompted by Gita vachan on what one thinks at > the time of death, one gets after death. What kind of salvation can an > ordinary mortal get, who can not think of Him at the final moments. > This is the genuine and compassionate concern for ordinary people like > us, that must have troubled Ilaaiyaazhwar. Bhagavan gave the green the > signal. > > The 5th vaarthai :- "SharIra avanAshatthilE Moksham" > The deduced question is :- " When does moksham occur?" > It is after the destroyal of body. Which body? Just the mortal body or > the body that carries works and gunas with it? It is here Bhagavad > Ramanuja formulated his prescription for how to shed the body with all > its attached materials. It is hereby "sarva phala tyaagam" outlined by > Bhagavan at the battle field is held as the supreme way to achieve it. > > The 6 th vaarthai:- "Peria Nambi ThiruvadigaLilE Ashrayippadu." > The obvious question is " To which Acharyan, should I surrender?" > The back ground details shed more light. > Sri ALAvandhaar has left. > Ramanuja had made a pledge that he would fulfill ALavandhaar's wishes > and found his folded fingers straighten on making this pledge. There > were obstacles to make all the wishes happen. But he had the word of > consolation fromPeriya nimbi "ShrEyOmsi bahu vignAni bhavanthi > mahathaam api" ( many obstacles do come in the way of people of > shereyas – but he must not lose his heart.). Such was the troubled > time for our Udayavar. > > > Coming to the question to which of the 5 questions did Ramanuja's 6- > questions belong, here is the reasoning. > > When NambhigaL made the ViNNappam, to PerumaL, He thought "The one who > knows in detail all these, is asking Me as how I asked Saandheepani > (in krishnaavathara)" and decided to clear his samshayam. > > Since Bhagavan Himself was said to have compared Ramanuja's > questioning with Himself questioning Sage Saandeepani in > Krishnaavatara, it is 100% clear that Ramanuja knows the answers. And > even other wise we know that he has known the answers and only that he > wanted concurrence from Perumaal. He wanted to be 100% sure. > > > ViDaiyai-th-thandavan vishayatthil irukkum – adu > > That was about clearing Ramanuja's samshayam - doubt whether he has > got them all right. Since Bhagavan made ThiruvulLAm to remove his > 'klEsham', it is known that it was for the purpose of removing > whatever little doubt is there in his mind. Added to this is the 6 th > question, as Ramanuja must have been feeling rudder-less. Bhagavan > has given the assurance and also the go-ahead signal by these aaru > vaarthaigaL. > > That is why this comes under 'Iyyam theerdal' - asking to clear > doubts, like how Yudhishtira asked Bheeshma, something discussed By > Sri Sadagopan Iyengar in his mail on 6 questions. > > Regards, > Jayasree saranathan > > > > > Links > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 shree: shreemath jayashreeji; simply superb.Hats off to u. pranamams krishnapriya Jayasree Saranathan <jayasree.saranathan wrote: SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. There are 3 questions involved in this. (1) whether this is about 6 questions or not. (2) Whether the questions were openly raised or not / or the answers were provided by Deva-p-perumaL by mind-reading Ilaiaazhwar. (3)Under what category of 5 questions, these questions come under. Attempting to reply them.. (1) Since by tradition, the 'Aaru vaarthai' exits, this is enough proof that there were 6 questions or issues for which Illaiaazhwar wanted PerumAL to answer. (2) Going by the accounts on this incident, (those who have access to original manuscripts, please reproduce them to know how the events unfolded. Here I am going by the account given by Sri Desoor Nallaan Chakravarthy Srinivasa Varadhan, former adhyaapaka of Sri Parthasarathy sannidhi, Triplicane, in his book " Deva-p-perumALum, IrAmAnusa DharshaNamum" 1973 edition, Ratnam press) Illaiyaazhwar expressed his 'mana-klesham' to Thirukkachchi NambigaL and requested him to get replies from dEva-p-perumAl. Here a question may arise why Ramanuja himself didn't ask PerumAL. The reply to this question contains all answers on this issue. Ramanuja was then passing through a difficult period in his sojourn. It was on the suggestion of his mother, he approached Thirikkacchi NambigaL since he was close to Deva-p-perumAL ('andharangar to Deva-p-perumAL'). He has just then received the biggest blow of not being able to surrender unto SrI AlavandhAr, in him having left for Thiru nAdu. It was Thirukkachchi NambigaL who consoled him that PeraruLALan would certainly show him the way and assured that he need not entertain any fear ("anja vEndaa"). It is for the kind of relationship that NambigaL enjoyed with Deva-p-perumAL and he enjoyed with Illaiaazhwar, that things took this shape. Ramanuja placed his request to NambigaL and NambigaL conveyed the request to PerumAL. When we, the simple mortals have been blessed by Him by receiving guidance when needed, without even asking for them, there is no need to doubt whether the questions were put forth by mouth or not. If we look at the supreme connection between Uadayavar and Deva-p-perumAL, we know that this was the time chosen by Him to get-start the mission of Ramanuja. Because after receiving these Aaru vaarthai only, Bhagavad Ramanuja's Avatara mission started, by receiving pancha samakaaram at Madhuranthakam. So we conclude that PerumAL gave the Aru vaarthai, to satisfy the 6 questions that were in Ramanuja's mind. This is further supported by NambigaL's enquiry when he conveyed the replies to Ramanuja, whether these were the thoughts in Ramanuja's mind. This shows NambigaL had not known the questions. He has only conveyed Ramanuja's ViNNappam to PerumaL and re-conveyed what the Lord had answered. (3) What were the Aru vaarthai? Bhagavan never says anything which are incomprehensible to His subjects. He may give them concealed, but never out of their reach. Particularly, at this important juncture in Avatara mission of Srimad Ramanuja, Bahgavan will utter in such a way, that posterity (we , the ordinary mortals too) understand His upadesam. Looking at the Aru vaarthai, we automatically get to know the questions. The first two (not given in Sri Padmanabhan's mail) were to do with Ramanuja's klEsham arising from altercations with Yadhava prakaasha. The first vaarthai :- "BedhamE dharshaNam" >From this the question is deduced – " What is right, bedham or abedham? ( Or) What is Dharshanam? (This arises from the then existing allegiance to abdEdha arguments promoted by Purva pakshins) The 2nd vaarthai :- "Para-tattwam naame" >From this, the question deduced is – "Who then is supreme?" (or) "Which is para-tattwam?" (Here again Ramanuja would have wondered about how to reconcile the Mandukya advaitic passages with the oft repeated upanishadic verses of two birds sitting on a tree, one shining and the other eating karma) Bhagavan has sided with the 2-bird theory, thereby giving a clear signal on how to proceed, as this forms the basis of the doctrine of Seshatwam. This clarity given by Bhagavan is seen to be reflected in the final passages of Brahma sutra, where Ramanuja effectively establishes the 'no' to cosmic activity for the Released soul. These two form the basis of Emperumaanaar dharshanam. These are about the "End" and the other 4 ( already mentioned in Sri Padmanabhan's mail) are only about the other features that shaped 'process' or 'means' to attain Him. On the basis of this, my humble conclusion is that these two vaarthaigaL must have very much been the Declaratory vaarthaigaL of Bhagavaan. Now the derivation of the 3rd question. The 3rd vaarthai is – "Upaayamum prapatthiyE" The obvious question is " Which is the upaayam" (Because there were as many as 32 vidyas or methods of doing bhakti like Dahara vidya, Madhu vidya etc, approved by Upanishads. But they were all to be followed with strict austerities. Therefore Bhagavad concurrence was needed for an easy upaayam to be promoted among the masses.) The 4th vaarthai:- "Anthima smruthiyum vEndA" The deduced questions is :- "Does one need to think of Him at the time of death?" This question must have prompted by Gita vachan on what one thinks at the time of death, one gets after death. What kind of salvation can an ordinary mortal get, who can not think of Him at the final moments. This is the genuine and compassionate concern for ordinary people like us, that must have troubled Ilaaiyaazhwar. Bhagavan gave the green the signal. The 5th vaarthai :- "SharIra avanAshatthilE Moksham" The deduced question is :- " When does moksham occur?" It is after the destroyal of body. Which body? Just the mortal body or the body that carries works and gunas with it? It is here Bhagavad Ramanuja formulated his prescription for how to shed the body with all its attached materials. It is hereby "sarva phala tyaagam" outlined by Bhagavan at the battle field is held as the supreme way to achieve it. The 6 th vaarthai:- "Peria Nambi ThiruvadigaLilE Ashrayippadu." The obvious question is " To which Acharyan, should I surrender?" The back ground details shed more light. Sri ALAvandhaar has left. Ramanuja had made a pledge that he would fulfill ALavandhaar's wishes and found his folded fingers straighten on making this pledge. There were obstacles to make all the wishes happen. But he had the word of consolation fromPeriya nimbi "ShrEyOmsi bahu vignAni bhavanthi mahathaam api" ( many obstacles do come in the way of people of shereyas – but he must not lose his heart.). Such was the troubled time for our Udayavar. Coming to the question to which of the 5 questions did Ramanuja's 6- questions belong, here is the reasoning. When NambhigaL made the ViNNappam, to PerumaL, He thought "The one who knows in detail all these, is asking Me as how I asked Saandheepani (in krishnaavathara)" and decided to clear his samshayam. Since Bhagavan Himself was said to have compared Ramanuja's questioning with Himself questioning Sage Saandeepani in Krishnaavatara, it is 100% clear that Ramanuja knows the answers. And even other wise we know that he has known the answers and only that he wanted concurrence from Perumaal. He wanted to be 100% sure. ViDaiyai-th-thandavan vishayatthil irukkum – adu That was about clearing Ramanuja's samshayam - doubt whether he has got them all right. Since Bhagavan made ThiruvulLAm to remove his 'klEsham', it is known that it was for the purpose of removing whatever little doubt is there in his mind. Added to this is the 6 th question, as Ramanuja must have been feeling rudder-less. Bhagavan has given the assurance and also the go-ahead signal by these aaru vaarthaigaL. That is why this comes under 'Iyyam theerdal' - asking to clear doubts, like how Yudhishtira asked Bheeshma, something discussed By Sri Sadagopan Iyengar in his mail on 6 questions. Regards, Jayasree saranathan FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 SrI: Dear Mr Padmanabhan, Happy to note that you got what you had wanted. Thought you already got it in the two lines in Tamil I sent as reply to your mail. This mail was actually the 2nd of the 2 mails I sent to Sri Sadagopan Iyengar, to give additional details on the Aaru vaarthai. Regards, Jayasree saranathan On 11/17/05, Padmanabhan <aazhwar wrote: > Dear Mrs Jayashree Saranathan, > Thanks a lot.That was what I had wanted > dAsan > vanamamalai padmanabhan > - > "Jayasree Saranathan" <jayasree.saranathan > "sadagopaniyengar" <sadagopaniyengar; > <oppiliappan> > Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:15 PM > Re: The Six Questions > > > > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. > > > > > > There are 3 questions involved in this. > > > > (1) whether this is about 6 questions or not. > > > > (2) Whether the questions were openly raised or not / or the answers > > were provided by Deva-p-perumaL by mind-reading Ilaiaazhwar. > > > > (3)Under what category of 5 questions, these questions come under. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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