A Request form a fellow devotee

November 23, 2005

Dear List Members :

May I invite volunteers to address this request for Information ?

Swamy NammAzhwAr ThiruvAimozhi on ThiruviNNagarappan

and the different VishNu sahasra Naamams might be a good start .

Thank you in advance ,

V.Sadagopan

shree:

Sreeman sadagopan ji;

I have small doubt sir. Actually I think I did not

understand the meaning and relation I request sir, to put in plain words.

Saluting the PurvAchAryAs near the Lord's Throne

The jeevan sees the assembly of purvAchAryAs infront of the simhAsanam of Sri

Vaikunta nAthan . They are beaming with joy over the Lord's efforts bearing

fruit. The jeevan offers its salutations to them and comes closer to the Lord's

throne. There, the muktha jeevan witnesses that the foot (support) of the legs

of the throne is the Past, the future, Isvaryam and amrutham as stated in

Kousheedhaki Upanishad. The legs themselves are constitued by the four

attributes of Dharmam, VairAgyam, Jn~anam and Isvaryam. The four planks on top

of them are adharmam, Ajn~Anam, AvairAgyam and Anaisvaryam. These are the

abhimAni dEvathaa viseshams of the throne of the Lord.

Are these positive attributes or should we implicate negative

positive all are his.

Or does this 4 attributes have other meanings.

Thanking you

Pranamams

November 23, 2005

SrI:

One doubt here.The KaushItaki upanishad does not talk about the planks

of nature contadictory to the attributes explained by the four

legs.May I know wherefrom this passage has been taken? Where are the

4 planks actually? Beneath the legs or mounted on top of the legs? I

will however give some mundane explanation for the coexistance of the

contradictory ones in this scenario.

"The legs themselves are constitued by the four attributes of

Dharmam, VairAgyam, Jn~anam and Isvaryam. The four planks on top of

them are adharmam, Ajn~Anam, AvairAgyam and Anaisvaryam."

Regards,

jayasree saranathan.

Oppiliappan, "sgopan" <sgopan@c...> wrote:

>

> Dear List Members :

>

> May I invite volunteers to address this request for Information ?

> Swamy NammAzhwAr ThiruvAimozhi on ThiruviNNagarappan

> and the different VishNu sahasra Naamams might be a good start .

>

> Thank you in advance ,

> V.Sadagopan

>

> shree:

>

> Sreeman sadagopan ji;

> I have small doubt sir. Actually I

think I did not understand the meaning and relation I request sir,

to put in plain words.

>

> Saluting the PurvAchAryAs near the Lord's Throne

> The jeevan sees the assembly of purvAchAryAs infront of the

simhAsanam of Sri Vaikunta nAthan . They are beaming with joy over

the Lord's efforts bearing fruit. The jeevan offers its salutations

to them and comes closer to the Lord's throne. There, the muktha

jeevan witnesses that the foot (support) of the legs of the throne is

the Past, the future, Isvaryam and amrutham as stated in Kousheedhaki

Upanishad. The legs themselves are constitued by the four attributes

of Dharmam, VairAgyam, Jn~anam and Isvaryam. The four planks on top

of them are adharmam, Ajn~Anam, AvairAgyam and Anaisvaryam. These are

the abhimAni dEvathaa viseshams of the throne of the Lord.

> Are these positive attributes or should we implicate

negative positive all are his.

> Or does this 4 attributes have other meanings.

>

> Thanking you

>

> Pranamams

>

November 23, 2005

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"The legs themselves are constitued by the four

attributes of Dharmam, VairAgyam, Jn~anam and Isvaryam. The four

planks on top

of them are adharmam, Ajn~Anam, AvairAgyam and Anaisvaryam. These are

the

abhimAni dEvathaa viseshams of the throne of the Lord.

Are these positive attributes or should we implicate negative

positive all are his.

Or does this 4 attributes have other meanings.'

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Vedanta recognizes 3 kinds of negation. One is abhAva, absence of a

thing, another is anupalAbdhi, non- apprehension of a thing and third

is this, the contradictory of something. They are designated as

PrAgabhAva and PradhvamsAbhAva, that is, contradictory to the

existence or contradictory to the emergence of a thing into

existence. This means that when one thing exists, the other can not

exist, just as there is a conflict between good and evil. Though we

may come across many persons who are bad in some ways and good in

others, but certainly not good and bad with respect to the same thing

at the same time.

To show how the contradictory statements are analysed with reference

to the given subject, let me quote how the similar contradictory

terms, SambhUti and AsambhUti (vinAsha) (birth & non-birth) as used

in the Upanishad (Isha- 14). Here we find that A-sambhUti means not

death but the destruction of impediments to birth into Divine life.

This shows the contradictory term is used as that which is

the `other' of the first one and not as an opposite meaning that can

be applied at any other context. Thus context is very important in

arriving at the inference!

Here in the above passage, since God is all Dharma etc, the

contradictory of it can not exist along with Him or rather in His

abode. If Dharma exists, that means adharma can not exist there. But

how is this possible as per the passage? Or what is implied?

---------

That Brahman is `satyam, gyanam and anatham' is repeated in many

Upanishads. In this `anantham' attribute, comes a whole lot of

contradictory attributes.

He is aNuh, atomic; bRihat, macrocosmic; kRSaH, lean; sthUlaH, fat;

guNabrt, full of attributes; nirguNaH, attributeless; mahAn, great;

adhRtaH, supportless. These names occur in continuous succession in

Vishnu sahasranAma. But these attributes are not seen as un-

sustainable opposites, but as describing the eight powers of yoga:

namely, aNimA, mahimA, laghumA, garimA, Isitva, vaSitva, prAkAmya and

prApti – meaning, the powers to become atomic, transcendent, light,

heavy, the power to will anything beyond any natural phenomenon,

effortless attainment of anything and omniscience coupled with

omnipotence!

It is in this way only, the co-existence of Dharmam, VairAgyam,

Jn~anam and Isvaryam as four legs of the throne and adharmam,

Ajn~Anam, AvairAgyam and Anaisvaryam as planks can happen.

If we see these contradictory concepts, we find that a cohabitation

or combination of the two in a pair does not and need not cancel each

other, as how we think a positive and a negative cancel each other.

If attributes are classified into positive and negative (like good

and bad, devas and asuras) and if it be assumed that they equal each

other, will they then be cancelled and become zero? There is another

question also. If Brahman is all auspiciousness (nowhere texts say

that He has negative attributes. He is Amalan and Nirmalan), from

where the inauspicious qualities come? Since everything has sprung

from Brahman, does it mean that this inauspicious / bad nature also

has sprung from Him?

When He is all dharma etc, why then He must be seen to be resting on

or vice versa (as per the question) adharma?

-----------------------

To explain this let me make an equation like this.

The Lord has both sets of these as per the description given.

Let me not consider them +ve or – ve attributes. Let me assume that

they are all same +ve as the Lord is not associated with anything

negative.

So let me say that He is One with these two.

That is,

1+1 = 0.

If this has to be proved right, the 1 on the left must like this.

+1 & -1

1+1=0 only if

+1 = -1

In this universe we find that one and its reciprocal does not cancel

each other, leading to annihilation or nothingness. Instead we find

that these opposites occur in the same system, and we find that

these two opposites tend to attain the next nearest equilibrium and

not total annihilation, when their balance is disturbed.

Thus 1+(-1) is not shunyam, but it is Poornam, perfection. Sruti

texts also testify that He is Purnam.

If it be said that the 0 in the equation is shunyam only, it is

replied, that since shunyam means Nothingness, it is then equal to

its contrary, Everything!!

In other words,

Substituting these terms in the equation, we get,

Everything = Nothing

Since

+1 +(-1) = Nothing,

Everything = +1 + (-1)

In other words,

Everything = positive + negative.

Since from non-existance (of Nothing state), everything has evolved,

the +ve an d-ve must have evolved together at the very beginning.

But the hitch here is how come the Everything that evolved, which is

nothing but Brahman which is auspicious, can have –ve within it?

To show mathematically, let us assume that 0 existed in the beginning

and the apparent attributes spoken by the texts is that it has all

that is +ve. Creation further proceeded and there is systematic

simplification and separation of these attributes, so that It can

become many in the finite world. Therefore there happens a situation

when the positive is subtracted from the 0, from anu to brihat level.

What will we get is positive is subtracted from zero, a negative!! (

0 – (+1) = -1)

I think that this solves the riddle of opposites - they co-exist,

though we perceive them not so. At any one time we perceive one of

them and the other as absence of this one.

This can be understood like this.

Let us imagine our globe with day and night (light and darkness) in

co-existence. When we are standing at any one place on the earth, at

the finite level, either we will be in the day zone or in the night

zone. We wont experience the other – like (as earlier stated) how a

person can be good in respect of a thing at one time and not be both

good and bad at that time with reference to that thing.)

But if we move a little high above our earth, at some height we will

see both day and night, light and darkness next to each other, but

seeming to chase each other perpetually. The darkness chasing away

the light and light chasing away the darkness (tamasomaa Jythir

gamaya). At some heightened level of consciousness, perhaps we attain

the purport of this vachan.

Much higher still, perhaps at the height of moon, the opposites cease

to exist! (Please recall the famous photo of earth taken from the

moon in one of the Apollo missions.) Away from finite living on the

globe, what we now see is just half of the globe, perhaps with a

slight bulge at the twilight zone, shining with light. This reminds

me of how Brahman can always be perceived as light, sat and

auspiciousness only. (but note that this perception occurs only at

some height –of transcendence). What is this darkness at the other

half? It automatically co-exists but as `non-manifest' in Brahman. It

gets manifest only down the line of creation.

We also note that the opposites do not cancel each other. They just

balance each other. (Another corollary is in the creation of 7 lokas

above in light, which automatically ensures creation of 7 lokas

below (patala etc) in darkness). Balance is the nature of creation. I

think it is this balance that the Lord is showing in Vaikuntham.

By the passage

"The legs themselves are constitued by the four

attributes of Dharmam, VairAgyam, Jn~anam and Isvaryam. The four

planks on top

of them are adharmam, Ajn~Anam, AvairAgyam and Anaisvaryam. These are

the

abhimAni dEvathaa viseshams of the throne of the Lord."

We find the inevitable co-existence of the two contradictory and the

Lord's Lording of one over the other – that is Dharmam above adharmam.

----------------

Now about Brahman with contradictions.

Sruti texts do speak about Brahman as two-natured characteristic.

Verses from 3-2-11 to 3-2-25 of Brahma sutras speak of this two-

naturedness. This is explained by Neti clauses. Since it is being

said that Brahman is free from old age, disease, evil and so on, the

characteristic of something is supposed to be not in Brahman. The one

being imperfection and the other being perfection which is Brahman.

This Imperfection is also part of Brahman and Brahaman is also in

them though It is not tainted by the Imperfections. One example is

the Taiittriya vachan that Brahman is evacuation at anus!

The two-fold characteristic has been authenticated by the BG in many

places. Such opposites are the nature of things in Prakrithi. But the

self is expected to keep equi-distant from them and treat them with

equanimity. They don't cancel out each other. When one is perceived,

the other is not perceived. 18-30 says that the one having knowledge

of the contradictions is saattwic.

What the jeeva perceives in Vaikuntham is Dharma etc only, but since

it is a Released soul, it perceives the inevitable `other' of them

and the Lord `lording' them as One different from them!

Hope I didn't blabber something.

Regards,

Jayasree saranathan