Sense of agency in Bh G 18.66

April 14, 2006

Dear Members,

The charama sloka, Bh.G 18.66 is cited as a key sloka in Sri Vaishnava

philosophy. I had a chance to browse simultaneously through the commentaries of

Sri Ramanuja, Sankara and Abhinavagupta. All three seem to concur that "a sense

of agency" should be given up while performing the actions.

I have a question, which I have not able to resolve. I hope some learned

members can throw some light on this.

If the Lord says that we must give up a sense of agency, could it mean that

the lord is all powerful and that the jIva has no power to act on it's volition

and that it's sense of agency is actually a false notion?

Related to the above question, how powerful is the jIva compared to the

brahman? Can the jIva act on it's own volition or is it completely powerless and

depends on the lord for all it's actions?

Regards,

Jagannathan

Jiyo cricket on India cricket

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April 15, 2006

Some excerpts from the earlier chapters on the Gita.

Those who do not have the knowledge that all actions are the result of

interaction of gunas within us and the gunas of the objects outside, are

deluded by egoism and think ‘I am the doer.’ The wise who have the true insight

into the respective spheres of gunas, the modes of prakrthi, and their

actions, do not get attached to their actions ‘gunaa guneshu varthantha ithi

mathva na saajjathe.’ Though the actions of the enlightened seem to be no

different than the others it is the attitude that differentiates them.

How to cultivate the attitude ‘gunaaguneshu varthantha?’ W hen one gets

anger he thinks “I am angry” and does not say that his anger is the interplay

of rajas and thamas in him towards those outside When one learns to stand

apart and views his actions as an outsider he will be aware of the gunas, the

constituents of his body and mind, moving among those of the sense objects

outside, producing the various emotions, with which he identifies himself.

Krishna shows the way to do this ‘Mayi sarvaani karmaani

sanyasyadhyaathmachethasaa niraaseernirmamao bhoothva.’ “Dedicate all your

actions to Me,” He says “with your mind fixed on Me, the self of all, thus freed

from desire and ego, act on in the world. But the man of wisdom , having

renounced all actions by discriminative intelligence, perceiving action as

inaction sits in the body as a monarch inside a citadel with nine gates, the

nine openings of the body through which all experience is gained. The self is

the Lord of the castle with which the sage identifies himself and hence he does

no work nor he causes any work to be done, ‘navadhvaare pure dhehii naiva

kurvannakaarayan.’ Meaning there is no direct nor causative agency as the Self

is immutable.

The possible doubt that if the embodied self does nothing or causes nothing

to be done, who then operates both as a direct and causative agent is answered

that ‘na karmaphalsamyogam svabhaavasthu pravarthath..’ It is the prakrthi

constituted of the three gunas which operates as mentioned earlier ‘guna

guneshu varthanta Neither the merit nor the sin accrues to the Atman, the Self

and the notion of working or enjoying or causing other to do so.

Krishna advises Arjuna to follow the path of bhakthi. He says, ‘If you fix

your mind on Me alone, with all your thoughts absorbed in Me you will dwell in

Me . There is no doubt about this.’ Whatever one does thinks or sees, there

should be a persistent thought flow about the Lord like the trickle of oil,

thailadharavat at the back of the mind. This is ananya bhakthi..How is this

possible. One has to discharge his duties towards his family and perform the

work assigned to him in this world by society as a householder

Whatever one does it should be done as an offering to God and the result of

the action should be renounced. This is possible only for a yathaathmavan, one

who is endowed with self control. That is, one who has given up all idea of ‘I

‘ and ‘mine. What Krishna means here is that whatever you do according to your

position on life, should be done as offering to God, ‘sarvam narayanaayethi

samarpayaami.’ The same attitude was stressed in stressed in the chapter of

Karmayoga but here it is not mere Karmayoga but Karmayoga coupled with bhakthi

which becomes easier.

The question that arises in the mind is that whether the renunciation of the

fruit of action is so easy or so commendable than dhyana, abhayasa and jnana. It

is definitely not that easy. But it is praised because even an ignorant man,

provided he has faith and devotion, can be induced to give up the fruit of

action as it is ingrained in the human mind that result of action is not

entirely in his control, that is, there is a many a slip between the cup and the

lip. So by giving up the fruit of action he places his trust in God and slowly

gives up his desires thinking that God knows best what is good for him and will

give it unasked. This leads him to think about God more and more and realizes

that whatever he does belongs to God. Then he tries to concentrate on God more

and more and this practice induces him to acquire knowledge and discrimination.

So the renunciation of the fruit of action finally culminates in peace

Neither the world has any reason to be agitated by him nor is he agitated by

the world, yasmaannodhvijathe loko lokaannodhvijathe cha yah. The reason for

this is his being free from elation, intolerance, fear and agitation. and hence

he is dear to the Lord

He craves not, anapekshah, is pure, suchih, very adept in his actions at the

same time not affected, udaaseenah , not worried, gathavyathah and given up all

desire motivated actions, sarvaarambhaparithyaagi. He is not elated, has no

hatred, not aggrieved and has no desire, yo na hrshyathi na dveshti na sochathi

na kaankshathi.

He has given up both good and evil, subhaasubhaparithyaagi, because all his

actions are done as worship and he has renounced the fruit of action. Since he

is detached he is the same towards friend and foe,. honour and dishonour, cold

and warmth sukha and duhka. Therefore he treats .both contempt and praise alike.

He is silent and contented with whatever that accrues. He has no fixed abode.

For him vasudhaiva kutumbhakam. and he is sthiramatih, in other words

sthithaprajnah. ‘Such a devotee,’ says Krishna,’ is dear to Me.’ Krishna

concludes by saying that all those who are endowed with aforementioned qualities

and have faith and are engrossed in Him are exceedingly dear to Him that is

born out of jnana.

From the chapters 4and12 of the Bhagavatgita.

In Visishtadvata the Lord is the inner self of all and the jiva is in relation

to Him as a body to the soul.So the true agent is Him and not the jiva. The

actions of jiva cause agencyship to the jiva only when they are desire

motivated. A devotee acts as an instrument of God in the spirit of Kaayena

vaachaa mansendhriyairvaa buddhyaatmanaavaa prkrthersvabhaavaat karomi yatyat

sakalam parasmai naaraayanaayethi samarpayami.Jiva is the sesha, dependent and

belongs to the Lord, who is the seshi.and the aadhaara and niyanthaa, the

support and the controller. Sence of agency to jiva is not an illusion but due

to wrong identification with body mind and intellect which are guided by

ragadvesha.

K G Jagannathan <kgjagan21 wrote:

Dear Members,

The charama sloka, Bh.G 18.66 is cited as a key sloka in Sri Vaishnava

philosophy. I had a chance to browse simultaneously through the commentaries of

Sri Ramanuja, Sankara and Abhinavagupta. All three seem to concur that "a sense

of agency" should be given up while performing the actions.

I have a question, which I have not able to resolve. I hope some learned

members can throw some light on this.

If the Lord says that we must give up a sense of agency, could it mean that

the lord is all powerful and that the jIva has no power to act on it's volition

and that it's sense of agency is actually a false notion?

Related to the above question, how powerful is the jIva compared to the

brahman? Can the jIva act on it's own volition or is it completely powerless and

depends on the lord for all it's actions?

Regards,

Jagannathan

Jiyo cricket on India cricket

Messenger Mobile Stay in touch with your buddies all the time.

Visit your group "Oppiliappan" on the web.

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May god bless you,

Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit.

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April 15, 2006

Dear Dr. Saroja Ramanujam :

Thanks very much for your enjoyable response to

Sriman K.JagannAthan's question .

Although such questions are not easy to answer over

the medium of Internet mails, You have successfully

highlighted the answers to this deep question .

The central issues relating to" the Free will of the Jeevan

and the souverignity of the ParamAthmA " are beautifully

covered by U.Ve.Sri Neduntheru KaNNan Swamy of Chennai.

His monograph on the subject is an outstanding one and

is in English.

I would also like Sriman JagannAthan to acquire and read

the exquisite three volume commentaries on Srimath

Bhagavath Geethai for a clearer understanding of these difficult

concepts .

A seperate e-book in English summarizing Swamy AlavanthAr's

GeethArTa Sangraham , AchArya RaamAnujA's GeethA BhAshyam

and Swamy Desikan's Taathparya Chandrika will be released

in the Sundara Simham web site at the end of this Month:

http://www.Sundarasimham.org

Thank you again for being an excellent source for responding to

Member's questions with PramANams .

NamO NaarAyaNAya ,

V.Sadagopan

-

"Saroja Ramanujam" <sarojram18

Saturday, April 15, 2006 1:33 AM

Re: Sense of agency in Bh G 18.66

In Visishtadvata the Lord is the inner self of all and the jiva is in

relation to Him as a body to the soul.So the true agent is Him and not the

jiva. The actions of jiva cause agencyship to the jiva only when they are

desire motivated. A devotee acts as an instrument of God in the spirit of

Kaayena vaachaa mansendhriyairvaa buddhyaatmanaavaa prkrthersvabhaavaat

karomi yatyat sakalam parasmai naaraayanaayethi samarpayami.Jiva is the

sesha, dependent and belongs to the Lord, who is the seshi.and the aadhaara

and niyanthaa, the support and the controller. Sence of agency to jiva is

not an illusion but due to wrong identification with body mind and intellect

which are guided by ragadvesha.

April 15, 2006

Thank you. I was hesitating at first thinking that there may be wiser scholars

who may perhaps give a proper answer but at the same time I thought that I can

also add a little to the ocean of knowledge to the best of my ability. May be it

is the teacher in me who cannot leave a question unanswered!

saroja ramanujam

gopan <yennappan wrote: