Last night II

[Guest guest]

I tried with my last night posting to describe my meditation experience and seek

guidance as to whether anything could be improved. Looking back I am not happy

with my effort and am therefore starting again. I will try this time to avoid

any conjecture and conceptualising and stick to just what happened. Most

nights I do not get very far at all since my mind will not quiet and would

rather things like 'is the plumber overcharging me', 'how should I tackle this

problem at work tomorrow' etc, but every few days I get a bit further - so here

goes...

 

After a few yoga postures I lay flat on back in corpse pose, close my eyes,

relax my whole body and take a few what I call full yoga breaths (fill the

abdomen, fill the chest, empty the chest, empty the abdomen. After a while

what I call the 'worded thoughts' stop. ie thoughts which I adopt enough to

want to put into words. Each one I do not pursue, but just let go. A this

point watching the breath is sometimes useful. Then the 'cloud thoughts' drift

by. These are not in words. I see them and understand their meaning (eg

'cannot easily be overcome' might be one) but I do not verbalise them. There

are so many all in parallel.

 

Alongside these there are bodily. Firstly, a warmth throughout and a feeling

that all my limbs are being gently inflated like balloons. Then very strongly

my pulse throughout my limbs and sometimes in my torso too. Also, there is a

flow feeling,like standing under the shower, but internal. To a degree this

flow can be directed by intention( not really strong enough to be called a

thought). Eventually the feeling of pulse stops.

 

There is a bright whiteness before my eyes, sometimes this is preceeded by a few

flashes like turning on a flourescent light, sometimes not. Often my eyes fall

open, which seems to happen when I relax. All the time I am relaxing more and

more and become unaware of my body completely.

 

At some point even the 'cloud thoughts' stop and the other noises (hard to

describe what they are, but something like getting of plane after 20 hours and

wondering what the noise is, then realising 'the noise' is the lack of noise)

stop and there is just a complete and utter silence. Often at this point I

think 'I'm doing it, I getting somewhere etc' and the whole experience

collapses because I'm back thinking again and I think silly me, kick myself and

stop for the night. But sometimes... there is more.

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[Guest guest]

13/10/03 3:59 PM +0100 Michael Norfolk mike (AT) wavedata (DOT) co.uk wrote:

> I tried with my last night posting to describe my meditation experience

> and seek guidance as to whether anything could be improved.

Many would say you need a close teacher for this practical advice, and

concerning the details of meditation that you experience. Otherwise you have to

live by your wits. All teachings are within' Ultimately you must live by your

wits, but a guide may help...To live by your wits, you have to be sharp,

powerful, and have a light sense of humour, for sure. However, Any technique

concerning meditation is weak and difficult without deep humility.

The details you give of meditation experience are clear, and not unusual. I note

that you give no details of the content or meaning of any thoughts, as if they

are merely mundane, or of no interest. I would say your meditation encompasses

awareness of thought, and subtle movements in the body. Possibly other feelings

of relationship: This is your ability now. It will deepen through continued

practise, but I would suggest you develop, or formalise your requests and

thanks, during and post-meditation. Then you may proceed with humilty and

openness, rather than persue pre-conceptualised results.

So, for instance basic questions to form prayers: why do you want to improve

your meditation, and in what way, if any, do you conceive of this? Where do you

believe you are heading in this? Are you doing this alone?

While we live in this world, enhanced vision in meditation is meant to brought

into this world:in other words meditation changes one's vision of this world.

So it's not just a question of stopping thoughts to se something else, but how

you relate to each of those arising thoughts as powerful expressions.........

It sounds as if by your practise your wits are becoming sharper, and that will

serve you well, in time. Meanwhile you must develop humility (unselfishness) in

your approach to meditation. So continue, in deep humilty, especially by

recollecting your questions in meditation. These are thoughts too, and the

meaning is important. Check faith, that from within, you have all subtle and

true resources. When things aren't so dynamic or fresh, then never mind,

continue. You may then perfect your vision of the mundane. You have the space

not to be merely an observer of the fantastic, but a real presence in humilty.

Regards,

John Plum

[Guest guest]

Thank you chueewowee for your reply and help, some of which I regret I do not

fully understand and ask below for clarification. Are you what I would call a

channelled being or spirit guide? I'm just curious why John writes on your

behalf.

John Plum [John Plum] On Behalf Of

chueewowee14 October 2003 11:32RamanaMaharshiSubject:

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Last night II

13/10/03 3:59 PM +0100 Michael Norfolk mike (AT) wavedata (DOT) co.uk wrote:> I tried with

my last night posting to describe my meditation experience> and seek guidance as

to whether anything could be improved. Many would say you need a close teacher

for this practical advice, and concerning the details of meditation that you

experience. Otherwise you have to live by your wits. All teachings are within'

yes they are within and yes I would love to have a close teacher, but have not.

 

Ultimately you must live by your wits, but a guide may help...To live by your

wits, you have to be sharp, powerful, and have a light sense of humour, for

sure. However, Any technique concerning meditation is weak and difficult

without deep humility. I do not fully comprehend what deep humility is. The

details you give of meditation experience are clear, and not unusual. thats

good. I note that you give no details of the content or meaning of any

thoughts, as if they are merely mundane, or of no interest. There so many

thoughts or rather partial thoughts and half ideas - nothing that really can

find any expression. I would say your meditation encompasses awareness of

thought, and subtle movements in the body. from outside the body does not

move (once the whole body did jump like a big electric shock) but there are

occasional twinges and feelings within the body Possibly other feelings of

relationship: This is your ability now. It will deepen through continued

practise, but I would suggest you develop, or formalise your requests and

thanks, during and post-meditation. In what way make formal and what requests

and thanks? there are no requests. I guess you don't mean put in writing, but

that's what formal means to me. Then you may proceed with humilty and

openness, rather than persue pre-conceptualised results. I have no expected

results, I hav just tried document what happened. my only aim is to let go and

observe.So, for instance basic questions to form prayers: why do you want to

improve your meditation, and in what way, if any, do you conceive of this? I

knew when I wrote it that improve was the wrong word! What I meant is

difficult for me to express; to go deeper into myself, to let go more, to get

closer to god, to become more myself. Where do you believe you are heading in

this? I have no idea! I just have to do it. It's a one step at a time path

and I can't see round the next bend. But other people have said 'you must have

a guide' so I shared on here. Are you doing this alone? Not sure I understand

this question - I don't have a guru or a guide, but no man is an island and

none of us is alone. While we live in this world, enhanced vision in meditation

is meant to brought into this world:in other words meditation changes one's

vision of this world. So it's not just a question of stopping thoughts to se

something else, but how you relate to each of those arising thoughts as

powerful expressions......... Yes, meditation has changed the way I see the

world but slowly and subtly over time not brought about by one particular

thought or another.It sounds as if by your practise your wits are becoming

sharper, and that will serve you well, in time. Meanwhile you must develop

humility (unselfishness) in your approach to meditation. Why? i'm already way

too humble (oops!) In what way is my meditation selfish - you lost me. So

continue, in deep humilty, especially by recollecting your questions in

meditation. I don't really have any questions in meditation. These are

thoughts too, and the meaning is important. Check faith, that from within, you

have all subtle and true resources. Could you expand on this sentence please.

When things aren't so dynamic or fresh, then never mind, continue. OK You

may then perfect your vision of the mundane. OK You have the space not to be

merely an observer of the fantastic, but a real presence in humilty. OK thank

you again for your input, I have tried my utmost to understand in what you say.

kind regards MikeRegards,John Plum Post message:

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[Guest guest]

Dear Fellow Travellers,

I have read interesting views and responses on 'moderation' from

others. While everybody is free to fulfil his/her urge to share

experiences, I believe that Bhagavan has by and large addressed most

of the concerns of the seeker. May be some of it can be put in

different words, according to the seeker's knowledge base (mundane

academic training and professional learning), vocabulary and state of

mind.

 

I presume that this group has emerged with a view to benefit from the

Life and Teachings of Bhagavan and with a view to let seekers share

their understanding and interpretation of Bhagavan's teachings for

the benefit of one and all. It is true that Spirituality is beyond

words and hence the effort to share words in a Group may appear to be

the antithesis of spiritual effort. At this moment I have not

experienced the Ultimate (whatever you may wish to call it). I still

exist within the realm of Names (symbols - call it words, thoughts

or language,if you like) and Forms (physical experiences). So be it.

 

I browsed through some of the earlier messages posted on this site.

Interestingly I noticed that messages 1569, 1555 and 1566 read in

that order appear to answer Mike's questions.

 

I would request the more knowledgable members to respond to the

issues/doubts or concerns raised by fellow members by drawing upon

Bhagavan's teachings, their personal interpretations and

experiences ; even if it means that some of the messages posted

earlier are to be repeated, for the benefit of the late

entrants.

 

As to the question of a Guru, please remember Bhagavan stating that

Guru is the invisible SELF or Universal Force that is within and

around us. If we are to be guided by a manifestation and there is a

sincere yearning for one, the SELF will lead us to One.

 

May Bhagavan guide us on this Path!

 

Sivaramakrishna

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, chueewowee <chueewowee>

wrote:

>

>

> 13/10/03 3:59 PM +0100 Michael Norfolk mike@w... wrote:

>

> > I tried with my last night posting to describe my meditation

experience

> > and seek guidance as to whether anything could be improved.

>

> Many would say you need a close teacher for this practical advice,

and

> concerning the details of meditation that you experience. Otherwise

you

> have to live by your wits. All teachings are within' Ultimately you

must

> live by your wits, but a guide may help...To live by your wits, you

have to

> be sharp, powerful, and have a light sense of humour, for sure.

However,

> Any technique concerning meditation is weak and difficult without

deep

> humility.

> The details you give of meditation experience are clear, and

not unusual.

> I note that you give no details of the content or meaning of any

thoughts,

> as if they are merely mundane, or of no interest. I would say your

> meditation encompasses awareness of thought, and subtle movements

in the

> body. Possibly other feelings of relationship: This is your ability

now. It

> will deepen through continued practise, but I would suggest you

develop, or

> formalise your requests and thanks, during and post-meditation.

Then you

> may proceed with humilty and openness, rather than persue

> pre-conceptualised results.

>

> So, for instance basic questions to form prayers: why do you want

to

> improve your meditation, and in what way, if any, do you conceive

of this?

> Where do you believe you are heading in this? Are you doing this

alone?

> While we live in this world, enhanced vision in meditation

is meant to

> brought into this world:in other words meditation changes one's

vision of

> this world. So it's not just a question of stopping thoughts to se

> something else, but how you relate to each of those arising

thoughts as

> powerful expressions.........

>

> It sounds as if by your practise your wits are becoming sharper,

and that

> will serve you well, in time. Meanwhile you must develop humility

> (unselfishness) in your approach to meditation. So continue, in

deep

> humilty, especially by recollecting your questions in meditation.

These are

> thoughts too, and the meaning is important. Check faith, that from

within,

> you have all subtle and true resources. When things aren't so

dynamic or

> fresh, then never mind, continue. You may then perfect your vision

of the

> mundane. You have the space not to be merely an observer of the

fantastic,

> but a real presence in humilty.

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

> John Plum

[Guest guest]

Dear Mallela,

I browsed through some of the earlier messages posted on this site.

Interestingly I noticed that messages 1569, 1555 and 1566 read in that order

appear to answer Mike's questions. I would request the more knowledgable

members to respond to the issues/doubts or concerns raised by fellow members by

drawing upon Bhagavan's teachings, their personal interpretations and

experiences ; even if it means that some of the messages posted earlier are to

be repeated, for the benefit of the late entrants.

I am sorry that I am a late entrant. I cannot now change this.

 

There are over 8000 postings in the forum, I am glad you do not expect me read

them all!! I have read some. Many are interconnected and many repeat passages

from books and without your broad understanding I'm afraid often they mean very

little to me.

 

I have looked at 1569,1555 and 1566.

 

Worship,chanting and meditation. the last is best. this I understand, but to

take single example:

 

'Considering the world as the the eight foldmanifestation of the Lord and

worshipping Him is(true)worship.'

 

This means nothing to me.

What are the eight manifestations?

Does considering mean believing or dwelling on?

Of which Lord?How should this worhsip be carried out?

 

To me with an anglo saxon christian background terminology becomes a problem!

I need things explained.

This is why I have tried to avoid use of anything other than everyday terms so

I'm sure that I understand what I think I'm saying.

 

So yes I agree, for my benefit, would the more knowledgable and more experienced

members please respond with personal interpretations and experiences.

 

thank you Mallela for your concern and assistance,

regards

Mike

 

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[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Mike,

 

> How should this worship be carried out?

 

by 'Serving the world with intent on the Lord...' Brahman worships Brahman by

means of Brahman. When, just once, things are seen as they are... no longer

will the false be taken for reality. In this respect, Sri Ramana teaches us to

see the Self in everything, and everything in the Self. Every aspect of this

apparently diverse universe is a manifestation of the Self. The 'normal' view

is outwards towards an external other. The suggestion here is that we should

realise that a view which separates self and other is in fact merely mindstuff.

Sri Bhagavan gives further information on how this worship should be performed

in verse 5 of Arunachala Pancharatna:

With mind surrendered to You,

Always seeing all things as your appearance,

he worships You with love for no other,

He is victorious, Oh Arunachala,

In You ... immersed in bliss.

(Arunachala Pancharatna)

Here Arunachala represents both the particular and the universal. In the Narada

Bhakti Sutras, Narada proclaims, 'now that (Supreme Devotion) comes about when

one rejects the visible universe (i.e. that separation which validates seeing

'things' as objects of the ego) and completely renounces objective attachment.'

(sutra, 35)

> What are the eight manifestations?

The eight forms are: earth, water, fire, air, space, sun, moon, jiva.

They represent the visible universe (the first seven) and the posited seer(s) of

the universe (jiva or individual self... i.e. ego).

> Does considering mean believing or dwelling on?

In the Sanskrit text the word 'sevanam' is used. This can be translated in

various ways - frequent, dwell in, resort to, service or worship. The verse

implies that we should live in the world understanding it (including ourselves)

as a manifestation of the Self. I understand the Tamil text uses the word

'vazhipadal' - 'worshipping'. (If this is incorrect perhaps a Tamil expert

might help.)

> Of which Lord?

The Self.

Sri Ramana says:

'So long as you are formful why should you not worship the formless God as being

formful?' (from Talks; 121)

To do so with mind surrendered and seeing all things as appearance of the Self

is of great help to those who are seeking a solution to the human condition.

Regards,

Miles

[Guest guest]

'Know that one Self alone,

on which are woven heaven and earth

and all things in between

along with mind and life breath.

Abandon common words

[mere signs of name and form].

This is the bridge to the immortal.'

(Manduka 2.2.5; trans. Wright)

[Guest guest]

Dear Miles,

Thanks for your exhaustive and comprehensive explanation, you plain english

better suits my palate - this I can follow. I'll try just ignoring those

posting I cannot follow.

regards Mike

 

ramana.bhakta

[miles.wright (AT) btopenworld (DOT) com] 15 October 2003 13:35To:

RamanaMaharshiSubject: Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Last night IIom

namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Mike, ....

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[Guest guest]

Dear Michael,

we may have such experiences - or not ..... we may force our

mediation in this way or not - what counts is if ego is subdued or

not. When ego goes peace comes.

 

>From my small experience: I like to do silent sitting in zen style -

occasionally: watching breath, simply being aware ... and following

the I-feeling to its source. Sometimes it is good - but mostly at the

moment a "catastroph" - but meanwhile I also like the catastrophal

meditations Indeed they tell me much more. Then looking at

Bhagavan's face - he smiles - and makes me smile alike.... so what!

Then there is peace at an instance.

It will all ripen in time - we need not worry - effort has always

been kept alife together with deep trust - rest may come in time.....

 

In Sri Bhagavan

Gabriele

 

 

 

: 320 - Release 29/09/2003

[Guest guest]

Michael,

14/10/03 10:12 PM +0100 Michael Norfolk mike (AT) wavedata (DOT) co.uk wrote:

>

> Thank you chueewowee for your reply and help, some of which I regret I do

> not fully understand and ask below for clarification. Are you what I

> would call a channelled being or spirit guide? I'm just curious why John

> writes on your behalf.

No I 'm not a channel, Michael. I didn't realise my email programme wrote that for me.

>

> I don't really have any questions in meditation.

I f you don't have any important questions in meditation, but otherwise you do,

why not bring your questions to the meditation? That's really what I was

getting at. The rest is colourful stuff,and has raised more questions. I didn't

mean it to. I'll try to answer anyway.

> I have no expected results, I hav just tried document what happened. my

> only aim is to let go and observe.

Basically , I sympathize with you, in both enjoying the fruits of meditation,

but also being dissatisfied, without sight of the goal. That's why I replied,

just to offer inspiration, off the bat. You say you have no goal.

>> Meanwhile you must develop humility (unselfishness) in your approach to

>> meditation.

Why? i'm already way too humble (oops!) In what way is my

> meditation selfish - you lost me.

I supposed your meditation is in some little way selfish or egoist because you

are concerned with results and technique. Humilility is the antidote. I mean we

can only really proceed by developing humility. Deep humility is felt. Ordinary

humility is assumed. If Meditation is natural, it is not necessary to talk

about it (though also quite OK), just like it is not necessary to speak or

enquire like an orthopaedic surgeon if you walk on your legs, if you have them.

I reckon humility has to be developed especially after long experience and

interest in meditation, even though meditation is a peaceful and solitary

business. That is because there are many concentrations and absorptions, yet

life events still retain personal significance beyond mere designation as

karma. In other words, we still remain dissatisfied. It happened to me last

week I felt suddenly humbled, because I was owned up to major dissatisfactions

in life. At the time, I was lolling at the back door. I knew that if I brought

that to my meditation, I would have power.

>> So it's not just a question of stopping thoughts to se something else,

>> but how you relate to each of those arising thoughts as powerful

>> expressions......... Yes, meditation has changed the way I see the

> world but slowly and subtly over time not brought about by one particular

> thought or another.

Why not a revolution, and why evolution only? Spiritual evolution isn't our

destiny, but it is our making, and that brings me to the topic of prayer, and

the meditator.

>> I would suggest you develop, or formalise your requests and thanks,

>> during and post-meditation.

> In what way make formal and what requests

> and thanks? there are no requests. I guess you don't mean put in

> writing, but that's what formal means to me.

You replied at some point:

> Are you doing this alone?

Not sure I understand this question - I don't

> have a guru or a guide, but no man is an island and none of us is alone.

Meditation may be experienced as being in the company of great beings, with

greater power of vision than you. Or it may be simply a strong belief. Either

way, it is to such beings, greater than you can conceive, that requests are

made, for assistance. Also, to recall and review one's motives in prayer leads

to requests. It is formal because it has form, you do it, not just think you

have done it, or know about it.

'It is said' to meditate, it is necessary to have a meditator. I think this

refers to our aspiration, and our effort which is in the balance of things,

over and above 'passive' observation. Moreover I suspect that passive

observation is an impossibility.

Hope you like something here, which I offer. If not, never mind.

Regards,

John Plum

[Guest guest]

Dear Mike,

I agree with you that semantics is the stumbling block to

comprehension. It need not be in the realm of Philosophy or

Spirituality. Can I explain the difference between the sweetness of

sugar cubes and honey to somebody who has not experienced the same?

Even if I do my best can I be sure that the person understands it,

without the experience?

 

Religion, be it Eastern or Western, has used symbols that can be

better understood by most followers, in explaining the mysteries of

creation or existence. God is supposed to be Merciful, Benevolent,

Compassionate. At the same time God is also Omnipresent, Omnipotent

and Omniscient.

 

If I unfortunately let my logical mind go wild it raises questions

like " If God is merciful, why does He silently witness crimes and

not come to the rescue of the victims, when they appeal to Him in

that moment of distress? etc etc.

 

I have painfully accepted the fact that I may not feel satisfied by

answers given by one and all. If at all somebody has to answer my

queries it has to be Him. So I have turned inwards.

 

If I accept that I am in search of peace or eternal happiness or

whatever one may call it I realise that the restless mind has to

become calm. I know I am not in control of thoughts and consequent

emotions.

 

I have learnt that there are several ways to temporarily calm the

mind. I also learnt that persistent practice could take me to

different planes of experience ( some may put doubts calling it

Hallucinaction!).

 

Ramana Maharishi refers to the Universal Force as Atman ( translated

into English as SELF). It is the very same God or Allah that most

Westerners refer to. If I call IT God I somehow look up to the skies

and address a Force that exists outside me. But I know that IT is

omnipresent and that it exists in every cell of my vibrant frame. If

I need a word that will direct my mind inwards and help me try to

seek IT what should be that word? Atman is the sanskrit word coined

by ancient indian enlightened masters.

 

If I cannot comprehend this word or feel any vibration reciting this

word I can also call IT ' My Lord" . But it is important to remember

that my mind has to turn inwards on invoking that Force because that

Force is also within me and I know that only an inwardly directed

mind is capable of striking a chord or a link with that Force. An

outwardly directed mind generally dissipates mental energies by

dwelling upon the diversity around.

 

Ramana Maharishi asks us to remember that God is the architect of the

eight fold manifestation of life experience. Without going into the

details of what he meant by it (it might be academically appropriate,

but ...) I have accepted it to mean the 8 dimesions of experience (

gates as it were)- 5 senses, thought, emotion and intellect, which

are so intrinsic to my moment to moment experiencing of life within

and without. If I believe and accept that this is all the doing of

God, the Almightly I may be able to remember Him more often, even if

my mind is embroiled in experiencing the complexities and diversities

around. Ramana Maharishi wishes to call that worship. This is an

intellectual mind viewing creation. The more emotional mind like that

of St Joan of Arc or St Francis of Assissi might say ' Lord, I see

you and feel your presence in every moment of my life, in every being

and in every feeling!"

 

I am aware that the only way forward on this path is to see the mind

become calmer. Ramana Maharishi says meditation is indeed a superior

method, to facilitate this process. If the mind is unable to just

remain calm and thought free for long periods he suggests that silent

recitation of a name can also help. This is called a Mantra ( a

sanskrit word -something that guards the mind - from wordly

thoughts).

 

If I have not been initiated by a Guru, Ramana Maharishi says SELF or

God is the true Guru. How very true! The only permanent link I have

is that with my Creator or God, even if I can't see Him. Certainly as

long as I am alive!

 

Hence I can also just recite the words ' Lord (or Jesus), save me!"

with true fervour and I am sure the words will help me to exclude

other thoughts temporarily from my mind.

 

Ramana Maharishi also has this to say -

 

By repeated practice one can become accustomed to turning inwards and

finding the Self. One must always and constantly make an effort,

until one

has permanently realized. Once the effort ceases, the state becomes

natural

and the Supreme takes possession of the person with an unbroken

current.

Until it has become permanently natural and your habitual state, know

that

you have not realized the Self, only glimpsed it.

 

The soul that realizes the Self may still be connected with a working

body, senses, and mind, without identifying itself with that body.

 

There can be satisfaction only when you reach the source, otherwise

there

will be restlessness.

 

May the Supreme Force ( The Lord) guide us!

 

Sivaramakrishna

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, "Michael Norfolk" <mike@w...>

wrote:

> Dear Mallela,

>

> I browsed through some of the earlier messages posted on this site.

> Interestingly I noticed that messages 1569, 1555 and 1566 read in

> that order appear to answer Mike's questions.

>

> I would request the more knowledgable members to respond to the

> issues/doubts or concerns raised by fellow members by drawing upon

> Bhagavan's teachings, their personal interpretations and

> experiences ; even if it means that some of the messages posted

> earlier are to be repeated, for the benefit of the late

> entrants.

>

> I am sorry that I am a late entrant. I cannot now change this.

>

> There are over 8000 postings in the forum, I am glad you do not

expect

> me read them all!! I have read some. Many are interconnected and

many

> repeat passages from books and without your broad understanding I'm

> afraid often they mean very little to me.

>

> I have looked at 1569,1555 and 1566.

>

> Worship,chanting and meditation. the last is best. this I

understand,

> but to take single example:

>

> 'Considering the world as the the eight fold

> manifestation of the Lord and worshipping Him is

> (true)worship.'

>

> This means nothing to me.

> What are the eight manifestations?

> Does considering mean believing or dwelling on?

> Of which Lord?

> How should this worhsip be carried out?

>

> To me with an anglo saxon christian background terminology becomes a

> problem!

> I need things explained.

> This is why I have tried to avoid use of anything other than

everyday

> terms so I'm sure that I understand what I think I'm saying.

>

> So yes I agree, for my benefit, would the more knowledgable and more

> experienced members please respond with personal interpretations and

> experiences.

>

> thank you Mallela for your concern and assistance,

> regards

> Mike

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Gabriele,

Straight to the heart - thank you.

Mike

Gabriele Ebert [g.ebert (AT) gmx (DOT) de] 16

October 2003 00:07RamanaMaharshiSubject: [RamanaMaharshi]

Re: Last night IIDear Michael,we may have such experiences - or not ..... we

may force our mediation in this way or not - what counts is if ego is subdued

or not. When ego goes peace comes. >From my small experience: I like to do

silent sitting in zen style - occasionally: watching breath, simply being aware

.... and following the I-feeling to its source. Sometimes it is good - but mostly

at the moment a "catastroph" - but meanwhile I also like the catastrophal

meditations Indeed they tell me much more. Then looking at Bhagavan's face -

he smiles - and makes me smile alike.... so what!Then there is peace at an

instance.It will all ripen in time - we need not worry - effort has always been

kept alife together with deep trust - rest may come in time.....In Sri

BhagavanGabriele: 320 - Release 29/09/2003

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[Guest guest]

Dear John,

Thank you, you have encouraged me; I will try the actions you suggest and request a revolution. :-)

thank you again - I will try to keep quiet now!!

regards Mike

John Plum [John Plum] On Behalf Of

chueewowee16 October 2003 01:00RamanaMaharshiSubject:

RE: [RamanaMaharshi] Last night IIMichael, 14/10/03 10:12 PM +0100 Michael

Norfolk mike (AT) wavedata (DOT) co.uk wrote:> > Thank you chueewowee for your reply and

help, some of which I regret I do> not fully understand and ask below for

clarification. Are you what I> would call a channelled being or spirit guide?

I'm just curious why John> writes on your behalf. No I 'm not a channel,

Michael. I didn't realise my email programme wrote that for me.> > I don't

really have any questions in meditation.I f you don't have any important

questions in meditation, but otherwise you do, why not bring your questions to

the meditation? That's really what I was getting at. The rest is colourful

stuff,and has raised more questions. I didn't mean it to. I'll try to answer

anyway.> I have no expected results, I hav just tried document what happened.

my> only aim is to let go and observe.Basically , I sympathize with you, in both

enjoying the fruits of meditation, but also being dissatisfied, without sight of

the goal. That's why I replied, just to offer inspiration, off the bat. You say

you have no goal.>> Meanwhile you must develop humility (unselfishness) in your

approach to>> meditation. Why? i'm already way too humble (oops!) In what

way is my> meditation selfish - you lost me. I supposed your meditation is in

some little way selfish or egoist because you are concerned with results and

technique. Humilility is the antidote. I mean we can only really proceed by

developing humility. Deep humility is felt. Ordinary humility is assumed. If

Meditation is natural, it is not necessary to talk about it (though also quite

OK), just like it is not necessary to speak or enquire like an orthopaedic

surgeon if you walk on your legs, if you have them. I reckon humility has to

be developed especially after long experience and interest in meditation, even

though meditation is a peaceful and solitary business. That is because there

are many concentrations and absorptions, yet life events still retain personal

significance beyond mere designation as karma. In other words, we still remain

dissatisfied. It happened to me last week I felt suddenly humbled, because I

was owned up to major dissatisfactions in life. At the time, I was lolling at

the back door. I knew that if I brought that to my meditation, I would have

power.>> So it's not just a question of stopping thoughts to se something

else,>> but how you relate to each of those arising thoughts as powerful>>

expressions......... Yes, meditation has changed the way I see the> world

but slowly and subtly over time not brought about by one particular> thought or

another.Why not a revolution, and why evolution only? Spiritual evolution isn't

our destiny, but it is our making, and that brings me to the topic of prayer,

and the meditator.>> I would suggest you develop, or formalise your requests

and thanks,>> during and post-meditation. > In what way make formal and what

requests> and thanks? there are no requests. I guess you don't mean put in>

writing, but that's what formal means to me.You replied at some point:> Are you

doing this alone? Not sure I understand this question - I don't> have a guru or

a guide, but no man is an island and none of us is alone. Meditation may be

experienced as being in the company of great beings, with greater power of

vision than you. Or it may be simply a strong belief. Either way, it is to such

beings, greater than you can conceive, that requests are made, for assistance.

Also, to recall and review one's motives in prayer leads to requests. It is

formal because it has form, you do it, not just think you have done it, or know

about it.'It is said' to meditate, it is necessary to have a meditator. I think

this refers to our aspiration, and our effort which is in the balance of

things, over and above 'passive' observation. Moreover I suspect that passive

observation is an impossibility.Hope you like something here, which I offer. If

not, never mind.Regards,John Plum Post message:

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[Guest guest]

Hi Mallela,

I hope you don't mind, because it is only a semantic point i wish to clarify

(but I think important if we use these particular terms): Though some names

are symbolic, symbols are not always names, and may be forms.

So, symbols may be man made, or natural forms. One may conclude that symbols can

go beyond intellectual construction, in both meaning and relationship.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Silence is the sea, and speech is like the river.

The sea is seeking you: don't seek the river.

Don't turn your head away from the signs offered by the sea.

-- Mathnawi IV:2062-2063

Version by Camille and Kabir Helminski

"Rumi: Jewels of Remembrance"

Threshold Books, 1996

Persian transliteration courtesy of Yahyá Monastra

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

15/10/03 6:08 AM +0000 mallela_srkrishna mallela_srkrishna wrote:

> Names (symbols - call it words, thoughts

> or language,if you like)

Regards,

John Plum