Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of this discussion on FATE AND FREEWILL with his holiness Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi. Here is a jpeg image - reduced size - which is still readable. Very potent discussion but still does not answer a question or two on this topic. Looks like I need to do some more reading. The end conclusion is : FREE WILL can win - it is upto us. Which is very encouraging!! But in another discussion his holiness has mentioned that our fate is decided already, and we do not have control over anything, so why assume anything and why live amidst this ego..... Can someone care to explain this contradiction? Attachment: (image/jpeg) fate&freewill_01.jpg [not stored] Attachment: (image/jpeg) fate&freewill_02.jpg [not stored] Attachment: (image/jpeg) fate&freewill_03.jpg [not stored] Attachment: (image/jpeg) fate&freewill_04.jpg [not stored] Attachment: (image/jpeg) fate&freewill_05.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I think of it as follows, Shiva Bhakta: Suppose a man is a skillful puppeteer, and gets so involved in manipulating his puppet to the traditional puppet theatre, that he sees things through his own puppet, in striving for perfection. That puppet will have a destiny, well-known to the puppeteer. But after the show, the puppeteer 'snaps out' of his trance-like state of concentration, and realises who he is, and that he is not bound by the puppet's destiny, but in fact creates it himself. There are destiny and free-will, but to whom do they belong? Free-will has no meaning for the Self, for it knows nothing else, like a fish has no knowledge of water. The ego is completely bound by destiny, but does not exist. So all destiny exists only as grime on the windows of the soul; effectively real in preventing us seeing out, but removed at a stroke of a rag. Destiny is that of matter; only those experiencing the world can see the world, or experience time, space, and matter without which there can be no predestined fate.Hope this helps. Nasrudin --- Shiva Bhakta <shivabhakta wrote: > > Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of this > discussion on FATE AND FREEWILL with his holiness > Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi. > Here is a jpeg image - reduced size - which is > still readable. > > Very potent discussion but still does not answer a > question or two on this topic. > Looks like I need to do some more reading. > The end conclusion is : FREE WILL can win - it is > upto us. Which is very encouraging!! > > But in another discussion his holiness has mentioned > that our fate is decided already, and we do not have > control over anything, so why assume anything and > why live amidst this ego..... > > Can someone care to explain this contradiction? > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_01.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_02.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_03.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 5 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_04.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 6 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_05.jpg http://personals..au - Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 ---Dear Shiva Bhakta ,The Maharshi said also the only freedom we have is to turn inwards .This begins the process of liberation .The body has to suffer the preordained karma, for the jiva's spiritual development .His attitude to this vexatious question was to transcend it .It is only the mind which is peturbed .Answers come from the 'no mind 'state to insoluble intellectual questions which Self Enquiry and Surrender will gracefully bring about . In his immortal 40 Verses on Reality he writes in verse 19 THE DEBATE 'DOES FREE-WILL OR FATE PREVAIL' IS ONLY FOR THOSE WHO FAIL TO KNOW THE ROOT OF BOTH.THOSE WHO KNOW THE SELF,THE COMMON SOURCE OF FREE WILL AND FATE,HAVE PASSED BEYOND THEM BOTH AND WILL NOT RETURN TO THEM [COLLECTED WORKS} Every best wish , Yours in His Grace,Alan > Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of this discussion on FATE AND FREEWILL with his > holiness Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi. > Here is a jpeg image - reduced size - which is still readable. > > Very potent discussion but still does not answer a question or two on this topic. > Looks like I need to do some more reading. > The end conclusion is : FREE WILL can win - it is upto us. Which is very encouraging!! > > But in another discussion his holiness has mentioned that our fate is decided already, and we do > not have control over anything, so why assume anything and why live amidst this ego..... > > Can someone care to explain this contradiction? > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_01.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_02.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_03.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 5 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_04.jpg > ATTACHMENT part 6 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_05.jpg ______________________ Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Beautifully put, Nasrudin. It reminds me of 'The Tempest' By William Shakespeare. Prospero is the skillful puppeteer, managing and controlling events on his magical, dreamlike island. However, towards the end of the play, he declares that he will renounce his magic, knowing that, ultimately, the fabric of life is an illusion. Here is the more famous quotation from Act Four, scene one: Our revels are now ended. These our actors As I foretold you, were all spirits, and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which inherit it, shall dissolve, And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on; and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. Love Paula Nasrudin <nasrudin3 (AT) (DOT) co.nz>To: RamanaMaharshi <RamanaMaharshi>Saturday, January 24, 2004 10:35 AMRe: [RamanaMaharshi] fate and free willI think of it as follows, Shiva Bhakta:Suppose a man is a skillful puppeteer, and gets soinvolved in manipulating his puppet to the traditionalpuppet theatre, that he sees things through his ownpuppet, in striving for perfection. That puppet willhave a destiny, well-known to the puppeteer. But afterthe show, the puppeteer 'snaps out' of his trance-likestate of concentration, and realises who he is, andthat he is not bound by the puppet's destiny, but infact creates it himself.There are destiny and free-will, but to whom do theybelong? Free-will has no meaning for the Self, for itknows nothing else, like a fish has no knowledge ofwater. The ego is completely bound by destiny, butdoes not exist. So all destiny exists only as grime onthe windows of the soul; effectively real inpreventing us seeing out, but removed at a stroke of arag. Destiny is that of matter; only thoseexperiencing the world can see the world, orexperience time, space, and matter without which therecan be no predestined fate.Hope this helps.Nasrudin--- Shiva Bhakta <shivabhakta (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of this> discussion on FATE AND FREEWILL with his holiness> Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi.> Here is a jpeg image - reduced size - which is> still readable. > > Very potent discussion but still does not answer a> question or two on this topic.> Looks like I need to do some more reading.> The end conclusion is : FREE WILL can win - it is> upto us. Which is very encouraging!!> > But in another discussion his holiness has mentioned> that our fate is decided already, and we do not have> control over anything, so why assume anything and> why live amidst this ego.....> > Can someone care to explain this contradiction?> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpegname=fate&freewill_01.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpegname=fate&freewill_02.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpegname=fate&freewill_03.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 5 image/jpegname=fate&freewill_04.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 6 image/jpegname=fate&freewill_05.jpghttp://personals..au - PersonalsNew people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.Community email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi To visit your group on the web, go to:RamanaMaharshi/ To from this group, send an email to:RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 --- Dear Nasrudin ,I agree ,and it reminds me of a cartoon I saw.One puppet turns to the other and asks "hey do you think there really is someone up there pulling those strings?" Best wishes ,Alan <nasrudin3 wrote: > I think of it as follows, Shiva Bhakta: > Suppose a man is a skillful puppeteer, and gets so > involved in manipulating his puppet to the traditional > puppet theatre, that he sees things through his own > puppet, in striving for perfection. That puppet will > have a destiny, well-known to the puppeteer. But after > the show, the puppeteer 'snaps out' of his trance-like > state of concentration, and realises who he is, and > that he is not bound by the puppet's destiny, but in > fact creates it himself. > There are destiny and free-will, but to whom do they > belong? Free-will has no meaning for the Self, for it > knows nothing else, like a fish has no knowledge of > water. The ego is completely bound by destiny, but > does not exist. So all destiny exists only as grime on > the windows of the soul; effectively real in > preventing us seeing out, but removed at a stroke of a > rag. Destiny is that of matter; only those > experiencing the world can see the world, or > experience time, space, and matter without which there > can be no predestined fate.Hope this helps. > > Nasrudin > > > --- Shiva Bhakta <shivabhakta wrote: > > > Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of this > > discussion on FATE AND FREEWILL with his holiness > > Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi. > > Here is a jpeg image - reduced size - which is > > still readable. > > > > Very potent discussion but still does not answer a > > question or two on this topic. > > Looks like I need to do some more reading. > > The end conclusion is : FREE WILL can win - it is > > upto us. Which is very encouraging!! > > > > But in another discussion his holiness has mentioned > > that our fate is decided already, and we do not have > > control over anything, so why assume anything and > > why live amidst this ego..... > > > > Can someone care to explain this contradiction? > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_01.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_02.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_03.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 5 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_04.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 6 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_05.jpg > > > http://personals..au - Personals > New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Links > > > RamanaMaharshi/ > > > RamanaMaharshi > > Your > > > ______________________ Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya namaste, > Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of this discussion on FATE AND > FREEWILL with his holiness Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi. Thank you for posting this interesting conversation. However is the conversation not with His Holiness Chandrasekhara Bharati Swaminah, Shankaracharya of the Srngeri Math, from Krishnaswami Aiyar's 'Dialogues with the Guru', rather than Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi? --- Talk 346: Free will and destiny last as long as the body lasts. But wisdom transcends both, for the Self is beyond knowledge and ignorance. --- >From Talk 209: M. : 'Whose will is it? 'It is mine', you may say. You are beyond both will and fate. Abide as that and you transcend them both. That is the meaning of conquering destiny by will. Fate can be conquered. Fate is the result of past actions. By association with the wise the bad tendencies are conquered. One's experiences are then viewed to their proper perspective. ...Free-will is implied in the scriptural injunctions to be good. It implies overcoming fate. It is done by wisdom. The fire of wisdom consumes all actions. Wisdom is acquired by association with the wise, or rather, its mental atmosphere.' Regards, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Namaste all A very detailed discussion on the riddle of Fate and free-will I found from my collections. It was very enlighteneing ( I must warn that a little patience is required... it is a bit long and though involved quite simple and intuitive to follow) Many Pranams Sridhar The Riddle of Fate and Free-Will Solved (A dialogue between His Holiness Shri Chandrashekhara Bharati Mahaswami and a Disciple): [His Holiness was the Sringeri Mathadhipati 1912-1954.] H.H. : I hope you are pursuing your studies in the Vedanta as usual? D. : Though not regularly, I do make some occasional study. H.H. : In the course of your studies, you may have come across many doubts. D. : Yes, one doubt repeatedly comes up to my mind. H.H. : What is it? D. : It is the problem of the eternal conflict between fate and free-will. What are their respective provinces and how can the conflict be avoided? H.H. : If presented in the way you have done it, the problem would baffle even the highest of thinkers. D. : What is wrong with my presentation? I only stated the problem and did not even explain how I find it to be a difficult one. H.H. : Your difficulty arises in the very statement of the problem. D. : How? H.H. : A conflict arises only if there are two things. There can be no conflict if there is only one thing. D. : But here there are two things, fate and free-will. H.H. : Exacly. It is this assumption of yours that is responsible for your problem. D. : It is not my assumption at all. How can I ignore the fact that the two things exist as independent factors, whether I grant their existence or not? H.H. : That is where you are wrong again. D. : How? H.H. : As a follower of our Sanatana Dharma, you must know that fate is nothing extraneous to yourself, but only the sum total of the results of your past actions. As God is but the dispenser of the fruits of actions, fate, representing those fruits, is not his creation but only yours. Fre-will is what you exercise when you act now. D. : Still I do not see how they are not two distinct things. H.H. : Have it this way. Fate is past karma; free-will is present karma. Both are really one, that is, karma, though they may differ in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they are really one. D. : But the difference in time is a vital difference which we cannot possibly overlook. H.H. : I do not want you to overlook it, but only to study it more deeply. The present is before you and, by the exercise of free-will, you can attempt to shape it. The past is past and is therefore beyond your vision and is rightly called adrishta, the unseen. You cannot reasonably attempt to find out the relative strength of two things unless both of them are before you. But, by our very definition, free-will, the present karma, alone is before you and fate, the past karma, is invisible. Even if you see two wrestlers right in front of you, you cannot decide about their relative strength. For, one may have weight, the other agility; one muscles and the other tenacity; one the benefit of practice and the other coolness of judgment and so on. We can go on building arguments on arguments to conclude that a particular wrestler will be the winner. But experience shows that each of these qualifications may fail at any time or may prove to be a disqualification. The only practical method of determining their relative strength will be to make them wrestle. While this is so, how do you expect to find by means of arguments a solution to the problem of the relative value of fate and free-will when the former by its very nature is unseen! D. : Is there no way then of solving this problem? H.H. : There is this way. The wrestlers must fight with each other and prove which of them is the stronger. D. : In other words, the problem of conflict will get solved only at the end of the conflict. But at that time the problem will have ceased to have any practical significance. H.H. : Not only so, it will cease to exist. D. : That is, before the conflict begins, the problem is incapable of solution; and, after the conflict ends, it is no longer necessary to find a solution. H.H. : Just so. In either case, it is profitless to embark on the enquiry as to the relative stregth of fate and free-will. A Guide D. : Does Yor Holiness then mean to say that we must resign ourselves to fate? H.H. : Certainly not. On the other hand, you must devote yourself to free- will. D. : How can that be? H.H. : Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the past exercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past, you brought on the resultant fate. By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipe out your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it if you find it enjoyable. I any case. whether for acquiring more happiness or for reducing misery. you have to exercise your free-will in the present. D. : But the exercise of free-will however well-directed, very often fails to secure the desired result, as fate steps in and nullifies the action of free-will. H.H. : You are again ignoring our definition of fate. It is not an extraneous and a new thing which steps in to nullify your free- will. On the other hand, it is already in yourself. D. : It may be so, but its existence is felt only when it comes into conflict with free-will. How can we possibly wipe out the past record when we do not know nor have the means of knowing what it is? H.H. : Except to a very few highly advanced souls, the past certainly remains unknown. But even our ignorance of it is very often an advantage to us. For, if we happen to know all the results we have accumulated by our actions in this and our past lives, we will be so much shocked as to give up in despair any attempt to overcome or mitigate them. Even in this life, forgetfulnes is a boon which the merciful God has been pleased to bestow on us, so that we may not be burdened at any moment with a recollection of all that has happened in the past. Similarly, the divine spark in us is ever bright with hope and makes it possible for us to confidently exercise our free- will. It is not for us to belittle the significance of these two boons-- forgetfulness of the past and hope for the future. D. : Our ignorance of the past may be useful in not deterring the exercise of the free-will, and hope may stimulate that exercise. All the same, it cannot be denied that fate very often does present a formidable obstacle in the way of such exercise. H.H. : It is not quite correct to say that fate places obstacles in the way of free-will. On the other hand, by seeming to oppose our efforts, it tells us what is the extent of free-will that is necessary now to bear fruit. Ordinarily for the purpose of securing a single benefit, a particular activity is prescribed; but we do not know how intensively or how repeatedly that activity has to be pursued or pesisted in. If we do not succed at the very first attempt, we can easily deduce that in the past we have exercised our free-will just in the opposite direction, that the resultant of that past activity has first to be eliminated and that our present effort must be proportionate to that past activity. Thus, the obstacle which fate seems to offer is just the gauge by which we have to guide our present activities. H.H. : The obstacle is seen only after the exercise of our free-will; how can that help us to guide our activities at the start? H.H. : It need not guide us at the start. At the start, you must not be obsessed at all with the idea that there will be any obstacle in your way. Start with boundless hope and with the rpesumption that there is nothing in the way of your exercising the free-will. If you do not succeed, tell yourself then that there has been in the past a counter-influence brought on by yourself by exercising your free-will in the other direction and, therefore, you must now exercise your free-will with re-doubled vogor and persistence to achieve your object. Tell yourself that, inasmuch as the seeming obstacle is of your own making, it is certainly within your competence to overcome it. If you do not succeed even after this renewed effort, there can be absolutely no justification for despair, for fate being but a creature of your free-will can never be stronger than your free-will. Your failure only means that your present exercise of free-will is not sufficient to counteract the result of the past exercise of it. In other words, there is no question of a relative proportion between fate and free-will as distinct factors in life. The relative proportion is only as between the intensity of our past action and the intensity of our present action. D. : But even so, the relative intensity can be realised only at the end of our present effort in a particular direction. H.H. : It is always so in the case of everything which is adrishta or unseen. Take, for example, a nail driven into a wooden pillar. When you see it for the first time, you actually see, say, an inch of it projecting out of the pillar. The rest of it has gone into the wood and you cannot now see what exact length of the nail is imbedded in the wood. That length, therefore, is unseen or adrishta, so far as you are concerned. Beautifully varnished as the pillar is, you do not know what is the composition of the wood in which the nail is driven. That also is unseen or adrishta. Now, suppose you want to pull that nail out, can you tell me how many pulls will be necessary and how powerful each pull has to be? D. : How can I? The number and the intensity of the pulls will depend upon the length which has gone into the wood. H.H. : Certainly so. And the length which has gone into the wood is not arbitrary, but depended upon the number of strokes which drove it in and the intensity of each of such strokes and the resistance which the wood offered to them. D. : It is so. H.H. : The number and intensity of the pulls needed to take out the nail depend therefore upon the number and intensity of the strokes which drove it in. D. : Yes. H.H. : But the strokes that drove in the nail are now unseen and unseeable. They relate to the past and are adrishta. D. : Yes. H.H. : Do we stop from pulling out the nail simply because we happen to be ignorant of the length of the nail in the wood or of the number and intensity of the strokes which drove it in? Or, do we persist in pulling it out by increasing our effort? D. : Certainly, as practical men we adopt the latter course. H.H. : Adopt the same course in every effort of yours. Exert yourself as much as you can. Your will must succeed in the end. Function of Shastras: D. : But there certainly are many things which are impossible to attain even after the utmost exertion. H.H. : There you are mistaken. There is nothing which is really unattainable. A thing, however, may be unattainable to us at the particular stage at which we are, or with the qualifications that we possess. The attainability or otherwise of a particular thing is thus not an absolute characteristic of that thing but is relative and proportionate to our capacity to attain it. D. : The success or failure of an effort can be known definitely only at the end. How are we then to know beforehand whether with our present capacity we may or may not exert ourselves to attain a particular object, and whether it is the right kind of exertion for the attainment of that object? H.H. : Your question is certainly a pertinent one. The whole aim of our Dharma Shastras is to give a detailed answer to your question. Religion does not fetter man's free-will. It leaves him quite free to act, but tells him at the same time what is good for him and what is not. The resposibility is entirely and solely his. He cannot escape it by blaming fate, for fate is of his own making, nor by blaming God, for he is but the dispenser of fruits in accordance with the merits of actions. You are the master of your own destiny. It is for you to make it, to better it or to mar it. This is your privilege. This is your responsibility. D. : I quite realise this. But often it so happens that I am not really master of myself. I know, for instance, quite well that a particular act is wrong; at the same time, I feel impelled to do it. Similarly, I know that another act is right; at the same time, however, I feel powerless to do it. It seems that there is some power which is able to control or defy my free-will. So long as that power is potent, how can I be called the master of my own destiny? Whatis that power but fate? H.H. : You are evidently confusing together two distinct things. Fate is a thing quite different from the other one which you call a power. Suppose you handle an instrument for the first time. You will do it very clumsily and with great effort. The next time, however, you use it, you will do so less clumsily and with less effort. With repeated uses, you will have learnt to use it easily and without any effort. That is, the facility and ease with which you use a particular thing increase with the number of times you use it. The first time a man steals, he does so with great effort and much fear; the next time both his effort and fear are much less. As opportunities increase, stealing will become a normal habit with him and will require no effort at all. This habit will generate in him a tendency to steal even when there is no necessity to steal. It is this tendency which goes by the name vasana. The power which makes you act as if against your will is only the vasana which itself is of your own making. This is not fate. The punishment or reward, in the shape of pain or pleasure, which is the inevitable consequence of an act, good or bad, is alone the province of fate or destiny. The vasana which the doing of an act leaves behind in the mind in the shape of a taste, a greater facility or a greater tendency for doing the same act once again, is quite a different thing. It may be that the punishment or the reward of the past act is, in ordinary circumstances, unavoidable, if there is no counter-effort; but the vasana can be easily handled if only we exercise our free-will correctly. D. : But the number of vasanas or tendencies that rule our hearts are endless. How can we possibly control them? H.H. : The essential nature of a vasana is to seek expression in outward acts. This characteristic is common to all vasanas, good and bad. The stream of vasanas, the vasana sarit, as it is called, has two currents, the good and the bad. If you try to dam up the entire stream, there mey be danger. The Shastras, therefore, do not ask you to attempt that. On the other hand, they ask you to submit yourself to be led by the good vasana current and to resist being led away by the bad vasana current. When you know that a particular vasana is rising up in your mind, you cannot possibly say that you are at its mercy. You have your wits about you and the responsibility of deciding whether you will encourage it or not is entirely yours. The Shastras ennciate in detail what vasanas are good and have to be encouraged and what vasanas are bad and have to be overcome. When, by dint of practice, you have made all your vasanas good and practically eliminated the charge of any bad vasanas leading you astray, the Shastras take upon themselves the function of teaching you how to free your free-will even from the need of being led by good vasanas. You will gradually be led on to a stage when your free- will be entirely free from any sort of coloring due to any vasanas. At that stage, your mind will be pure as crystal and all motive for particular action will cease to be. Freedom from the results of particular actions is an inevitable consequence. Both fate and vasana disappear. There is freedom for ever more and that freedom is called Moksha. ____________________ ______ .. shrii shaN^karaarpaNamastu .. RamanaMaharshi, MNW <miles.wright@b...> wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Thanks, Paula. I also like: "So shalt thou feed on death, that feeds on men; For death once dead, there's no more dying then" (Sonnets). I think I once lived on the island described as 'Prospero's'; it fits closely. The passage you quoted is on the Westminster Abbey "Shakespeare" monument; but they got it a bit jumbled up. One line out of place, and 'wreck' for rack (cloud). Best wishes. Nasrudin --- Paula Marvelly <paula.marvelly wrote: > Beautifully put, Nasrudin. > > It reminds me of 'The Tempest' By William > Shakespeare. Prospero is the skillful puppeteer, > managing and controlling events on his magical, > dreamlike island. However, towards the end of the > play, he declares that he will renounce his magic, > knowing that, ultimately, the fabric of life is an > illusion. > > Here is the more famous quotation from Act Four, > scene one: > > Our revels are now ended. These our actors > As I foretold you, were all spirits, and > Are melted into air, into thin air: > And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, > The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, > The solemn temples, the great globe itself, > Yea, all which inherit it, shall dissolve, > And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, > Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff > As dreams are made on; and our little life > Is rounded with a sleep. > > Love Paula > > Nasrudin <nasrudin3 > RamanaMaharshi > <RamanaMaharshi> > Saturday, January 24, 2004 10:35 AM > Re: [RamanaMaharshi] fate and free will > > > I think of it as follows, Shiva Bhakta: > Suppose a man is a skillful puppeteer, and gets > so > involved in manipulating his puppet to the > traditional > puppet theatre, that he sees things through his > own > puppet, in striving for perfection. That puppet > will > have a destiny, well-known to the puppeteer. But > after > the show, the puppeteer 'snaps out' of his > trance-like > state of concentration, and realises who he is, > and > that he is not bound by the puppet's destiny, > but in > fact creates it himself. > There are destiny and free-will, but to whom do > they > belong? Free-will has no meaning for the Self, > for it > knows nothing else, like a fish has no knowledge > of > water. The ego is completely bound by destiny, > but > does not exist. So all destiny exists only as > grime on > the windows of the soul; effectively real in > preventing us seeing out, but removed at a > stroke of a > rag. Destiny is that of matter; only those > experiencing the world can see the world, or > experience time, space, and matter without which > there > can be no predestined fate.Hope this helps. > > Nasrudin > > > --- Shiva Bhakta <shivabhakta > wrote: > > > Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of > this > > discussion on FATE AND FREEWILL with his > holiness > > Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi. > > Here is a jpeg image - reduced size - which > is > > still readable. > > > > Very potent discussion but still does not > answer a > > question or two on this topic. > > Looks like I need to do some more reading. > > The end conclusion is : FREE WILL can win - it > is > > upto us. Which is very encouraging!! > > > > But in another discussion his holiness has > mentioned > > that our fate is decided already, and we do > not have > > control over anything, so why assume anything > and > > why live amidst this ego..... > > > > Can someone care to explain this > contradiction? > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_01.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_02.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_03.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 5 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_04.jpg > > > > ATTACHMENT part 6 image/jpeg > name=fate&freewill_05.jpg > > > http://personals..au - Personals > New people, new possibilities. FREE for a > limited time. > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: > RamanaMaharshi- > Un: > RamanaMaharshi > List owner: > RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > ---------- > > Links > > > > RamanaMaharshi/ > > b.. To from this group, send an > email to: > RamanaMaharshi > > c.. Your use of is subject to > the > > > http://personals..au - Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Thanks, Alan. A man once told me that his father had died suddenly in perfect health.His wife had had a vivid dream that her deceased aunt (I think)told her the exact day, a few weeks away. Which eventuated. She didn't tell anyone, but it prepared her for the shock. This raises questions: Would a relative be allowed to pass on such personal data, unknown even to the husband? And even if so, would it be available to them? Personally, I think the dream came directly from the man's 'oversoul'or greater self; it wanted to prevent shock without frightening the man. Best regards, Nasrudin --- Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: --- Dear Nasrudin ,I agree ,and it reminds me of a cartoon I saw.One puppet turns to the other and asks "hey do you think there really is someone up there pulling those strings?" Best wishes ,Alan http://personals..au - Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Namaste, Shiva Bhakta, I was about to send the conversation a devotee had on Fate and Free will with His Holiness Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati of Sringeri Sharada Peetham. Sri Sridhar has already sent it. I thought it would help all if sent as an MS Word document. I feel majority of us do not go into the source of either fate or free will much less knowing the Self. Under these circumstances, the words of His Holiness guide us aright without being dragged into diverse discussions. With best wishes, In Omacobs <alanadamsjacobs (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: ---Dear Shiva Bhakta ,The Maharshi said also the only freedom we have is to turn inwards .Thisbegins the process of liberation .The body has to suffer the preordained karma, for the jiva'sspiritual development .His attitude to this vexatious question was to transcend it .It is only themind which is peturbed ..Answers come from the 'no mind 'state to insoluble intellectual questions which Self Enquiry and Surrender will gracefully bring about .In his immortal 40 Verses on Reality he writes in verse 19THE DEBATE 'DOES FREE-WILL OR FATE PREVAIL' IS ONLY FOR THOSE WHO FAIL TO KNOW THE ROOT OFBOTH.THOSE WHO KNOW THE SELF,THE COMMON SOURCE OF FREE WILL AND FATE,HAVE PASSED BEYOND THEM BOTHAND WILL NOT RETURN TO THEM [COLLECTED WORKS}Every best wish ,Yours in His Grace,Alan > Someone had posted a bitmap scanned image of this discussion on FATE AND FREEWILL with his> holiness Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi.> Here is a jpeg image - reduced size - which is still readable. > > Very potent discussion but still does not answer a question or two on this topic.> Looks like I need to do some more reading.> The end conclusion is : FREE WILL can win - it is upto us. Which is very encouraging!!> > But in another discussion his holiness has mentioned that our fate is decided already, and we do> not have control over anything, so why assume anything and why live amidst this ego.....> > Can someone care to explain this contradiction?> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_01.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 3 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_02.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 4 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_03.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 5 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_04.jpg> ATTACHMENT part 6 image/jpeg name=fate&freewill_05.jpg______________________ Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger./download/index.htmlCommunity email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi To visit your group on the web, go to:RamanaMaharshi/ To from this group, send an email to:RamanaMaharshi Your use of is subject to the India Mobile: Ringtones, Wallpapers, Picture Messages and more. Download now. Attachment: (application/msword) Fate and Free Will.doc [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.