Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Dear Jim, I've been thinking further about your question .One may not experience anything.Experience is not the point .Turning inwards starts a process of increased understanding and guidance .The Self sees the Jiva turning and becomes its Friend .Self Enquiry is a very intimate affair and very different for each one depending on previous Sadhanas , length of time in perseverance ,and intensity of the wish for Liberation .Where there is effort Grace starts to operate .Best wishes , Alan --- jim37rich <jim37rich wrote: > re:"Until there is the I-thought, there will be no other > > thought. Until other thoughts arise, (asking) "To whom?" > > (will call forth the reply) "To me". > > He who pursues this closely, questioning > > "What is the origin of the I?" > > and diving inwards reaches the seat of the mind (within) > > the Heart becomes (there) the sovereign Lord of the Universe." > > I would like to read anyone's own actual experience/feelings/etc. > which follows the question: What is the origin of the I? > > what happens to you? where do you go? what's it like? how does it > feel/look/sound/taste/etc.? in your own personal words like "I > feel/felt..." please state the exact sequence of > events/feelings/thoughts, etc. that you, personally, > experience/encounter after the question about your/the I. > > thanks, > > jim > > > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > "'Who am I?' is the best japa. > > What could be more concrete than the Self? It is within each one's experience every moment." > > Links > > > The_Sage_of_Arunachala/ > > > The_Sage_of_Arunachala > > Your > > > ______________________ Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > Dear Jim , with the greatest respect I am wondering why you need to know what others experience > > is, without first making the actual exploration yourself, for a while, with persistence. Alan, it's interesting that you have jumped to all sorts of conclusions about my "need to know" and assumption that I have not yet explored. How did you arrive at all that from my simple request for other's experiences? You are > > the only one who can find out . And I sure did! There are now approaching 60 books in the Ramana literature > > containing various accounts of peoples experiences and they range from frustration to Self > > Realisation .All experiences reported are second hand and will always be unique,peculiar to the > > individual jiva, and very different .So much depends on our inborn > > tendencies,conditioning,previous lives , influences etc.etc.that you are never going to get a > > consensus . Who is looking for a "concensus"? I will be satisfied with a simple report of acctual experiences from anyone willing to offer them. > > > > Having said that ,for what it is worth, my practice is Diving Into the Heart [one of the > > approaches,not the only one] and my experience is that there has been a reduction in tendencies > > which cloud the satvic mind.An opening into the Heart Centre where one can rest from the > > chattering mind ,often a complete changee from identification with an emotional state to peace > > etc.etc.Continual guidance comes , one goes deeper and deeper .There is the Sat-Guru in the > > Heart > > which pulls one inwards .What starts with the mind is taken over by the 'no mind' and is beyond > > verbal description. Thanks Alan for this minimal description of your own experiences with the teachings/process. I really like what you wrote and appreciate that you took a risk to write down your experiences even if you left off much of the feelings that must have gone with "reduction in tendencies". In some ways I can see how the experience(s) may be beyond verbal description but I think this has more to do with skills in stating one's experiences than in a lack of adequate words, etc. When you gain experience in verbalizing what you feel, encounter, etc. it becomes very easy to tell others what your experience of anything is, IMO. But, it may be a struggle for the listener/reader to grasp or deal with what you report of your experiences, which may explain why so few folks, including realized ones, are able or willing to verbalize their experiences. > > > > Does this help you unless you try?There are many experiences , some last, others are > > fleeting.Atma > > Vichara is for you to attempt if you are seriously interested in Liberation ,rather than relying > > on what others may have to say .If you want to learn to swim ,you have to get into the water. Yep, that's been my experience and I've found no problem with verbalizing my experiences with "swiming". > > > > > > This is a tried and tested way for Self realisation attempted by Sadhaks for thousands of years > > and goes back as far as the Yoga Vashista .How many witnesses do you need before you start .? As many witnesses who are willing to openly respond. It's a little disappointing to me that you have moved so completely to judgments and assumptions of my process, progress, motives and needs from just a simple desire to have others speak of their experiences. When I read of other's experiences in What Is Enlightenment magazine, for example, there seems to be no resistance or rebuke to the interviewer by the one being interviewed and those being asked are able to respond with very full accounts of their own experiences. Why is there such stubborn resistance to the very same questions posted in here? IMO, it has something to do with FEAR and poor articulation skills more than privacy or un-verbalizable experience. In any case, I truely appreciate that you had the courage to actually say what you experience in some instances and look forward to whatever else you may have to say about your own process. thanks, jim > > > > With every best wish in your efforts in this direction ,yours in His grace,Alan > > > > > > > > --- jim37rich <jim37rich> wrote: > re: From The Mountain Path: > > > > Until there is the I-thought, there will be no other > > > > thought. Until other thoughts arise, (asking) "To whom?" > > > > (will call forth the reply) "To me". > > > > He who pursues this closely, questioning > > > > "What is the origin of the I?" > > > > and diving inwards reaches the seat of the mind (within) > > > > the Heart becomes (there) the sovereign Lord of the Universe. > > > > > > I would like to read anyone's own actual experience/feelings/etc. > > > which follows the question: What is the origin of the I? > > > > > > > > > > what happens to you? where do you go? what's it like? how does it > > > feel/look/sound/taste/etc.? in your own personal words like "I > > > feel/felt..." please state the exact sequence of > > > events/feelings/thoughts, etc. that you, personally, > > > experience/encounter after the question about your/the I. > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara/ > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara > > > > > > Your > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ __ > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > http://uk.messenger./download/index.html > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > atma_vichara/ > > > > > > atma_vichara > > > > Your > > > > > > > > ____________________ __ > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Dear Jim ,I would not say I jumped to conclusions -it was more an intuition that wanting to know about other's experiences was of more interest for you than exploring your own inner being in an attempt to find out the source of the "I thought" and experience for yourself..I apologise if I was wrong in this surmise . When you say "my need to know" find out instead "who wants to know?".That would be Self Enquiry . People practicing this teaching are in the main reluctant to describe experiences in the detailed way you requested because these verbal descriptions are mental and words are very limited in their ability to convey the intimately inexspressible beyond the mind . Every best wishes in your endeavours , your in His grace ,Alan --- jim37rich <jim37rich wrote: > --- In RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > > Dear Jim , with the greatest respect I am wondering why you need > to know what others experience > > > is, without first making the actual exploration yourself, for a > while, with persistence. > > Alan, it's interesting that you have jumped to all sorts of > conclusions about my "need to know" and assumption that I have not > yet explored. How did you arrive at all that from my simple request > for other's experiences? > > > You are > > > the only one who can find out . > > And I sure did! > > > There are now approaching 60 books in the Ramana literature > > > containing various accounts of peoples experiences and they range > from frustration to Self > > > Realisation .All experiences reported are second hand and will > always be unique,peculiar to the > > > individual jiva, and very different .So much depends on our > inborn > > > tendencies,conditioning,previous lives , influences etc.etc.that > you are never going to get a > > > consensus . > > > Who is looking for a "concensus"? I will be satisfied with a simple > report of acctual experiences from anyone willing to offer them. > > > > > > > Having said that ,for what it is worth, my practice is Diving > Into the Heart [one of the > > > approaches,not the only one] and my experience is that there has > been a reduction in tendencies > > > which cloud the satvic mind.An opening into the Heart Centre > where one can rest from the > > > chattering mind ,often a complete changee from identification > with an emotional state to peace > > > etc.etc.Continual guidance comes , one goes deeper and > deeper .There is the Sat-Guru in the > > > Heart > > > which pulls one inwards .What starts with the mind is taken over > by the 'no mind' and is beyond > > > verbal description. > > Thanks Alan for this minimal description of your own experiences with > the teachings/process. I really like what you wrote and appreciate > that you took a risk to write down your experiences even if you left > off much of the feelings that must have gone with "reduction in > tendencies". In some ways I can see how the experience(s) may be > beyond verbal description but I think this has more to do with skills > in stating one's experiences than in a lack of adequate words, etc. > When you gain experience in verbalizing what you feel, encounter, > etc. it becomes very easy to tell others what your experience of > anything is, IMO. But, it may be a struggle for the listener/reader > to grasp or deal with what you report of your experiences, which may > explain why so few folks, including realized ones, are able or > willing to verbalize their experiences. > > > > > > > Does this help you unless you try?There are many experiences , > some last, others are > > > fleeting.Atma > > > Vichara is for you to attempt if you are seriously interested in > Liberation ,rather than relying > > > on what others may have to say .If you want to learn to swim ,you > have to get into the water. > > Yep, that's been my experience and I've found no problem with > verbalizing my experiences with "swiming". > > > > > > > > > > This is a tried and tested way for Self realisation attempted by > Sadhaks for thousands of years > > > and goes back as far as the Yoga Vashista .How many witnesses do > you need before you start .? > > As many witnesses who are willing to openly respond. It's a little > disappointing to me that you have moved so completely to judgments > and assumptions of my process, progress, motives and needs from just > a simple desire to have others speak of their experiences. When I > read of other's experiences in What Is Enlightenment magazine, for > example, there seems to be no resistance or rebuke to the interviewer > by the one being interviewed and those being asked are able to > respond with very full accounts of their own experiences. Why is > there such stubborn resistance to the very same questions posted in > here? IMO, it has something to do with FEAR and poor articulation > skills more than privacy or un-verbalizable experience. In any case, > I truely appreciate that you had the courage to actually say what you > experience in some instances and look forward to whatever else you > may have to say about your own process. > > thanks, > > jim > > > > > > > > With every best wish in your efforts in this direction ,yours in > His grace,Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > --- jim37rich <jim37rich> wrote: > re: From The Mountain > Path: > > > > > Until there is the I-thought, there will be no other > > > > > thought. Until other thoughts arise, (asking) "To whom?" > > > > > (will call forth the reply) "To me". > > > > > He who pursues this closely, questioning > > > > > "What is the origin of the I?" > > > > > and diving inwards reaches the seat of the mind (within) > > > > > the Heart becomes (there) the sovereign Lord of the Universe. > > > > > > > > I would like to read anyone's own actual > experience/feelings/etc. > > > > which follows the question: What is the origin of the I? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what happens to you? where do you go? what's it like? how > does it > > > > feel/look/sound/taste/etc.? in your own personal words like "I > > > > feel/felt..." please state the exact sequence of > > > > events/feelings/thoughts, etc. that you, personally, > > > > experience/encounter after the question about your/the I. > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara/ > > > > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara > > > > > > > > Your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > __ > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > > > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > > http://uk.messenger./download/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara/ > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara > > > > > > Your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > __ > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > http://uk.messenger./download/index.html > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Links > > > RamanaMaharshi/ > > > RamanaMaharshi > > === message truncated === ______________________ Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Dear Alan, You wrote: > People practicing this teaching are in the main reluctant to describe experiences in the detailed > way you requested because these verbal descriptions are mental and words are very limited in > their ability to convey the intimately inexspressible beyond the mind . Yes - and no Surely, the final experience is beyond words - but Ramana told also about his death-experience. Surly the very long report found at Narasiha Swami's Ramana-biography may be also composed together by the author - but look at it - what all is told there What a pity would it be if this report would be lacking. The same about his experience at Tortoise Rock and many other things. Ramana told lots. Practicing people are reluctant possibly also because the experiences are yet only limited. And it always good to point that out. But this are marks on the way and do have the importance of marks on the way. In His love and grace Gabriele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 --- Dear Gabriele , I feel your analsis is right .Thanks , and every best wish in His Grace,Alan Ebert <g.ebert wrote: > Dear Alan, > > You wrote: > > People practicing this teaching are in the main reluctant to > describe experiences in the detailed > > way you requested because these verbal descriptions are mental and > words are very limited in > > their ability to convey the intimately inexspressible beyond the > mind . > > > Yes - and no Surely, the final experience is beyond words - but > Ramana told also about his death-experience. Surly the very long > report found at Narasiha Swami's Ramana-biography may be also > composed together by the author - but look at it - what all is told > there What a pity would it be if this report would be lacking. > The same about his experience at Tortoise Rock and many other > things. Ramana told lots. > Practicing people are reluctant possibly also because the > experiences are yet only limited. And it always good to point that > out. But this are marks on the way and do have the importance of > marks on the way. > > In His love and grace > Gabriele > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > Links > > > RamanaMaharshi/ > > > RamanaMaharshi > > Your > > > ______________________ Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Dear Gabriele and ALL, --- Gabriele Ebert <g.ebert wrote: > Dear Alan, > > You wrote: > > People practicing this teaching are in the main > reluctant to > describe experiences in the detailed > > way you requested because these verbal > descriptions are mental and > words are very limited in > > their ability to convey the intimately > inexspressible beyond the > mind . > > > Yes - and no Surely, the final experience is > beyond words - but > Ramana told also about his death-experience. Surly > the very long > report found at Narasiha Swami's Ramana-biography > may be also > composed together by the author - but look at it - > what all is told > there What a pity would it be if this report > would be lacking. > The same about his experience at Tortoise Rock and > many other > things. Ramana told lots. Gabriele: Thank you for pointing this out. It is wonderful for devotees to share with one another, in the right way and at the right time. SNIP > > In His love and grace > Gabriele > > > Deepest respects, michael SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting./ps/sb/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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