Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Alan: IMO, you and many others at this site need to learn to speak for yourself. You need to get over your shame and fear of using `I' statements to express your thoughts/feelings/understanding more than judgmental `you' statements. For example:"People practicing this teaching are in the main reluctant to describe experiences in the detailed way you requested because these verbal descriptions are mental and words are very limited in their ability to convey the intimately inexspressible beyond the mind." IMO, you might have written: I am reluctant to describe experiences in the detailed way you requested because these verbal descriptions are mental and words are very limited in their ability to convey the inexpressible beyond the mind. Re: "I would not say I jumped to conclusions -it was more an intuition" Call it an "intuition" if that dresses it up for you but it still seems like an unfounded assuption and judgment to me. "that wanting to know about other's experiences was of more interest for you" as with the first assuption, it seems like a real stretch to assume whatever I wrote was of "more interest" than anything at all! "than exploring your own inner being in an attempt to find out the source of the "I thought" and experience for yourself." I think that you are so accustomed to advising and preaching to "folks in need" that you automatically assume everyone coming here to pose questions, etc. are novices with little or no experience and desperately seeking someone's sage advise. "I apologise if I was wrong in this surmise." I accept the apology. Please learn to speak for yourself (your as good as anybody, IMO) and use 'I' statements, which are much more dignified and respectful than 'you' statements, which often lean in the direction of attacks, judgments and disrespect. It's sad that so many folks were made to feel ashamed and affraid of their 'I' and themself in early childhood and I understand how scarey it is even for Enlightened folks to speak for themself and use I statements but it's the best form of communication - IMO and way more honest and digified when exchanging opions and experiences such as here. jim RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > Dear Jim ,I would not say I jumped to conclusions -it was more an intuition that wanting to know > about other's experiences was of more interest for you than exploring your own inner being in an > attempt to find out the source of the "I thought" and experience for yourself..I apologise if I > was wrong in this surmise . > > When you say "my need to know" find out instead "who wants to know?".That would be Self Enquiry . > > > People practicing this teaching are in the main reluctant to describe experiences in the detailed > way you requested because these verbal descriptions are mental and words are very limited in > their ability to convey the intimately inexspressible beyond the mind . > > Every best wishes in your endeavours , your in His grace ,Alan > > --- jim37rich <jim37rich> wrote: > --- In RamanaMaharshi, Alan Jacobs > > <alanadamsjacobs> wrote: > > > Dear Jim , with the greatest respect I am wondering why you need > > to know what others experience > > > > is, without first making the actual exploration yourself, for a > > while, with persistence. > > > > Alan, it's interesting that you have jumped to all sorts of > > conclusions about my "need to know" and assumption that I have not > > yet explored. How did you arrive at all that from my simple request > > for other's experiences? > > > > > > You are > > > > the only one who can find out . > > > > And I sure did! > > > > > > There are now approaching 60 books in the Ramana literature > > > > containing various accounts of peoples experiences and they range > > from frustration to Self > > > > Realisation .All experiences reported are second hand and will > > always be unique,peculiar to the > > > > individual jiva, and very different .So much depends on our > > inborn > > > > tendencies,conditioning,previous lives , influences etc.etc.that > > you are never going to get a > > > > consensus . > > > > > > Who is looking for a "concensus"? I will be satisfied with a simple > > report of acctual experiences from anyone willing to offer them. > > > > > > > > > > Having said that ,for what it is worth, my practice is Diving > > Into the Heart [one of the > > > > approaches,not the only one] and my experience is that there has > > been a reduction in tendencies > > > > which cloud the satvic mind.An opening into the Heart Centre > > where one can rest from the > > > > chattering mind ,often a complete changee from identification > > with an emotional state to peace > > > > etc.etc.Continual guidance comes , one goes deeper and > > deeper .There is the Sat-Guru in the > > > > Heart > > > > which pulls one inwards .What starts with the mind is taken over > > by the 'no mind' and is beyond > > > > verbal description. > > > > Thanks Alan for this minimal description of your own experiences with > > the teachings/process. I really like what you wrote and appreciate > > that you took a risk to write down your experiences even if you left > > off much of the feelings that must have gone with "reduction in > > tendencies". In some ways I can see how the experience(s) may be > > beyond verbal description but I think this has more to do with skills > > in stating one's experiences than in a lack of adequate words, etc. > > When you gain experience in verbalizing what you feel, encounter, > > etc. it becomes very easy to tell others what your experience of > > anything is, IMO. But, it may be a struggle for the listener/reader > > to grasp or deal with what you report of your experiences, which may > > explain why so few folks, including realized ones, are able or > > willing to verbalize their experiences. > > > > > > > > > > Does this help you unless you try?There are many experiences , > > some last, others are > > > > fleeting.Atma > > > > Vichara is for you to attempt if you are seriously interested in > > Liberation ,rather than relying > > > > on what others may have to say .If you want to learn to swim ,you > > have to get into the water. > > > > Yep, that's been my experience and I've found no problem with > > verbalizing my experiences with "swiming". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a tried and tested way for Self realisation attempted by > > Sadhaks for thousands of years > > > > and goes back as far as the Yoga Vashista .How many witnesses do > > you need before you start .? > > > > As many witnesses who are willing to openly respond. It's a little > > disappointing to me that you have moved so completely to judgments > > and assumptions of my process, progress, motives and needs from just > > a simple desire to have others speak of their experiences. When I > > read of other's experiences in What Is Enlightenment magazine, for > > example, there seems to be no resistance or rebuke to the interviewer > > by the one being interviewed and those being asked are able to > > respond with very full accounts of their own experiences. Why is > > there such stubborn resistance to the very same questions posted in > > here? IMO, it has something to do with FEAR and poor articulation > > skills more than privacy or un-verbalizable experience. In any case, > > I truely appreciate that you had the courage to actually say what you > > experience in some instances and look forward to whatever else you > > may have to say about your own process. > > > > thanks, > > > > jim > > > > > > > > > > > > With every best wish in your efforts in this direction ,yours in > > His grace,Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- jim37rich <jim37rich> wrote: > re: From The Mountain > > Path: > > > > > > Until there is the I-thought, there will be no other > > > > > > thought. Until other thoughts arise, (asking) "To whom?" > > > > > > (will call forth the reply) "To me". > > > > > > He who pursues this closely, questioning > > > > > > "What is the origin of the I?" > > > > > > and diving inwards reaches the seat of the mind (within) > > > > > > the Heart becomes (there) the sovereign Lord of the Universe. > > > > > > > > > > I would like to read anyone's own actual > > experience/feelings/etc. > > > > > which follows the question: What is the origin of the I? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what happens to you? where do you go? what's it like? how > > does it > > > > > feel/look/sound/taste/etc.? in your own personal words like "I > > > > > feel/felt..." please state the exact sequence of > > > > > events/feelings/thoughts, etc. that you, personally, > > > > > experience/encounter after the question about your/the I. > > > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > > > jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara > > > > > > > > > > Your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > > __ > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > > > > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > > > http://uk.messenger./download/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara/ > > > > > > > > > > > > atma_vichara > > > > > > > > Your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > > __ > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > > > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > > http://uk.messenger./download/index.html > > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > > Un: RamanaMaharshi > > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > Links > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi/ > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi > > > > > === message truncated === > > ____________________ __ > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Dear Jim, dear Alan, Jim, please don't blow into another horn now (is this the right expression in English ? I know Alan for long and it is not as you say. It would also be nice to hear from you about your experience. How is your practice? Would you like to share? Alan, you have told very often wonderfully about diving in the Heart, always much enjoyed. Possibly you would like to explain your approach again here. Each time I discover something new when reading. It says much about "experience" also So I think there is no real controversity. kind regards In HIS love and grace Gabriele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.