vichara a little help

February 20, 2004

Dear friends,

I think doing the vichara can be difficult,especially if you

don't know how to go about it.This is how I am practicing the vichara

these days.As advised by Sri Miles I am using the query method"for

whom is this thought, me, who is this me? or who am I."Well it is ok

but I seem to have a great number of thoughts arising without any

end.It is like a tide and my mind never seems to quieten down.It can

also be tiring because the me or I is always lurking in the

background when there is'nt a clearly discernible thought.I keep

changing the words too I sometimes ask "who is watching the mind? or

is this who I am?,who is thinking? Should I keep at it until I

clearly experience the no mind state? Another thing I do not

understand is how can one experience a state in which the sense" I am

watching" ceases even for a split second.Well the "I" is really not

ready to take off in a hurry. I hope my brothers in Ramana will help

me with some solid advice instead of quoting endlessly from some old

book they've read.No offence meant. We are all brothers and sisters

so let us try to help one another with some practical tips which will

enable us to make a genuine break through as regards the vichara.

Best wishes.

yours

alakeshwar

p.s. I wan't to know if any of you have had the same frustrating no

breakthrough ,reaching a plateau experience.

February 20, 2004

Dear Alakeshwar,

--- alakeshwar <alakeshwar wrote:

> Dear friends,

> I think doing the vichara can be

> difficult,especially if you

> don't know how to go about it.

Many people express the fact that atma vichara can be

very difficult to practice. It was easy for me,

because it came into my life at just the right time.

> This is how I am

> practicing the vichara

> these days.As advised by Sri Miles I am using the

> query method"for

> whom is this thought, me, who is this me? or who am

> I.

It sounds as if you are practicing a valid form of

atma vichara.

> "Well it is ok

> but I seem to have a great number of thoughts

> arising without any

> end.It is like a tide and my mind never seems to

> quieten down.It can

> also be tiring because the me or I is always lurking

> in the

> background when there is'nt a clearly discernible

> thought.

My personal opinion is that control of mind should be

established before someone takes up the practice of

atma vichara. Since I have been a member of this

forum and others, I have learned that at least one of

Ramana's close disciples felt the same way.

> I keep

> changing the words too I sometimes ask "who is

> watching the mind? or

> is this who I am?,who is thinking? Should I keep at

> it until I

> clearly experience the no mind state?

You have at least two choices. You can continue as

you are. If you continue, then someday, in some

lifetime, you will prevail. But I would recommend

that you also take up some practices such as, breath

control, japa and meditation. These practices will

help you to reach a greater degree of mind control.

SNIP

Warmest regards,

michael

February 20, 2004

Dear Alakeshwar,

You are trying to associate yourself with the thoughts and the

thoughts never end that way. Asking yourself again and again to whom

these thoughts arise then becomes a mental process, it goes to an

infinite loop and the mind gets tierd soon.

I would advice you to 'just be' and foucus on the feeling 'I am'. It

would be awareness watching awarenes.

Thoughts do come and go in the process, but do not be bothered by

them, just be urself. The number of thoughts decrease after some

time, but again 'just be'. Please let me know how you proceed.

If you are on a crowded street, you do not fight with everyone who

comes on your way, but instead you make a way through them. The same

is the case with the thoughts, if you try to deal with each thought,

then you can't make through. The analogy of street and people was

used by Nisargadatta Maharaj. If you apply that principle you would

soon get energized from your medidation instead of getting tierd.

So 'Just Be'.

The question to whom is this happening can be applied in this case:

Physical discomfort and mental anarchy are common side effects of

your medidation. In that case your mind might trouble you with

intense pain.(when you are in the midst of your wordly activities)

Then apply that question to 'whom is this pain occuring?'.

I hope this helps.

Sai.

RamanaMaharshi, "alakeshwar" <alakeshwar>

wrote:

> Dear friends,

> I think doing the vichara can be difficult,especially if you

> don't know how to go about it.This is how I am practicing the

vichara

> these days.As advised by Sri Miles I am using the query method"for

> whom is this thought, me, who is this me? or who am I."Well it is

ok

> but I seem to have a great number of thoughts arising without any

> end.It is like a tide and my mind never seems to quieten down.It

can

> also be tiring because the me or I is always lurking in the

> background when there is'nt a clearly discernible thought.I keep

> changing the words too I sometimes ask "who is watching the mind?

or

> is this who I am?,who is thinking? Should I keep at it until I

> clearly experience the no mind state? Another thing I do not

> understand is how can one experience a state in which the sense" I

am

> watching" ceases even for a split second.Well the "I" is really not

> ready to take off in a hurry. I hope my brothers in Ramana will

help

> me with some solid advice instead of quoting endlessly from some

old

> book they've read.No offence meant. We are all brothers and sisters

> so let us try to help one another with some practical tips which

will

> enable us to make a genuine break through as regards the vichara.

> Best wishes.

> yours

> alakeshwar

> p.s. I wan't to know if any of you have had the same frustrating

no

> breakthrough ,reaching a plateau experience.

February 20, 2004

Dear Alakeshwar,

I can't answer your question, but I willingly can tell a little bit about myself.

Now being a devotee for more than 13 years I still have not finished the process

to find out what is really helpful here -

and how atma vichara should be practiced - but recently a path has shown up.

When thinking back how Bhagavan was found - it was through reading Brunton's

"Search in Secret India" -

the first touch was that of a very deep love to Bhagavan. This increased over the years.

So my approach is that of bhakti. It expresses itself also through prayer.

Many devotees like to use "om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya" - which is a very

powerful prayer if

done whole-heartedly. This is then of a kind of "one thought" - so if done with

concentration - everything

else vanishes.

It may be not so helpful to have no clear discernible thought - as then all the

variety of thoughts feel free to come in.

What I want to say is, that it may be better to keep on one powerful thought in

form of a prayer, japa,

or the quest, which is also a kind of thought. If we go to the roots of our very

original feeling, the quest "who am I"

surely stands at its beginning and at its end - so to stay with it is a very

powerful thought/feeling -

which then, when grace comes in, is distroyed by a greater power. I can't say

more out of experience,

but so I understand the path. Surly for myself it has a strong bhakti-tendencie.

Kind Regards

Gabriele

-

alakeshwar

RamanaMaharshi

Friday, February 20, 2004 3:09 PM

[RamanaMaharshi] vichara a little help

Dear friends, I think doing the vichara can be difficult,especially if you

don't know how to go about it.This is how I am practicing the vichara these

days.As advised by Sri Miles I am using the query method"for whom is this

thought, me, who is this me? or who am I."Well it is ok but I seem to have a

great number of thoughts arising without any end.It is like a tide and my mind

never seems to quieten down.It can also be tiring because the me or I is always

lurking in the background when there is'nt a clearly discernible thought.I keep

changing the words too I sometimes ask "who is watching the mind? or is this who

I am?,who is thinking? Should I keep at it until I clearly experience the no

mind state? Another thing I do not understand is how can one experience a state

in which the sense" I am watching" ceases even for a split second.Well the "I"

is really not ready to take off in a hurry. I hope my brothers in Ramana will

help me with some solid advice instead of quoting endlessly from some old book

they've read.No offence meant. We are all brothers and sisters so let us try to

help one another with some practical tips which will enable us to make a

genuine break through as regards the vichara. Best wishes. yours

alakeshwarp.s. I wan't to know if any of you have had the same frustrating

no breakthrough ,reaching a plateau experience. Post

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February 20, 2004

RamanaMaharshi, "alakeshwar" <alakeshwar>

wrote:

> Dear friends,

> I think doing the vichara can be difficult,especially if you

> don't know how to go about it.This is how I am practicing the

vichara

> these days.As advised by Sri Miles I am using the query method"for

> whom is this thought, me, who is this me? or who am I."Well it is

ok

> but I seem to have a great number of thoughts arising without any

> end.It is like a tide and my mind never seems to quieten down.It

can

> also be tiring because the me or I is always lurking in the

> background when there is'nt a clearly discernible thought.I keep

> changing the words too I sometimes ask "who is watching the mind?

or

> is this who I am?,who is thinking? Should I keep at it until I

> clearly experience the no mind state? Another thing I do not

> understand is how can one experience a state in which the sense" I

am

> watching" ceases even for a split second.Well the "I" is really not

> ready to take off in a hurry. I hope my brothers in Ramana will

help

> me with some solid advice instead of quoting endlessly from some

old

> book they've read.No offence meant. We are all brothers and sisters

> so let us try to help one another with some practical tips which

will

> enable us to make a genuine break through as regards the vichara.

> Best wishes.

> yours

> alakeshwar

> p.s. I wan't to know if any of you have had the same frustrating

no

> breakthrough ,reaching a plateau experience.

Dear Alakeshwar:

I understand why you do not want endless quotes from old books.

It's such a bore to be given worn out opinions and parroted readings.

So, all I can offer you is my current, ever evolving experience with

Vichara and Ramana's process.

After years and years of reading Ramana and trying everyway I could

think of to realize the teachings, I came across several writings

(offered below) that dramatically increased both my understanding of

the teachings and a new belief which has changed everything (so far).

RELAXING INTO CLEAR SEEING by Arjuna Nick Ardagh

p.4..."Oh, that's right, I have to kill the ego!" ...Suddenly, in

an instant out of time, reality turned inside out. I burst out

laughing, and continued for twenty minutes, unabated, alone in my

hotel room. It became suddenly obvious that there is no such entity

as "ego" or "mind" – it is only an appearance. It became irrefutably

clear that the person I had taken myself to be, with all his

problems, concepts and memories, does not actually exist at all, and

never has. What remained untouched was a vastness of consciousness

in which thoughts arise and fall, happening of them selves to nobody

in particular. Although circumstances remained exactly as they had

been the night before, no "problem" could be found anywhere....Life

was unfolding perfectly, without the sense of there being anyone

there to interfere with it.

THE WAY OF HARMONY by Jim Dreaver

p.221....I woke up one spring morning feeling depressed. .....As I

lay in bed I got really present, and put the question to myself, "So,

who is depressed?" and probed deep into the interior of my own

consciousness to find this "me" who insisted he felt depressed. Of

course I couldn't find it. "I" and "me" don't exist, except as

concepts, appearances, in the mind. As my awareness opened and

expanded, the three thought-forms- "I-feel-depressed"- dissolved,

and "I" (as awareness, as consciousness) felt perfectly okay! ....I

got out of bed, sat for a while in meditation, and reflected upon

this sense of ease and expansion I now felt, and the process of self-

inquiry that had led me to it. Then I went happily about my day.

Once we have seen that we are not the "person", the

psychological/emotional entity we used to think we were, all seeking

falls away (who is there to seek?) and there is no going back. This

is the core insight in a nutshell.

WHO CARES by Ramesh S. Balsekar

P23. It is only a direct withdrawal into impersonality that is more

likely to bring about the startling transformation known as

metanoesism whereby there is a sudden and immediate conviction that

the identification with a separate individual entity never did really

exist and was essentially nothing but an illusion.

(From elsewhere off the web) by Ramesh Balsekar: "In Self-

enquiry, "Who am I?" – or – Who is there to suffer –or- Who wants to

know – or...., the basis is not for the "me" to ask the question and

expect to get an answer, but to FEEL the absence of an entity, any

phenomenal entity which .....has no independent existence of its own."

Jim: One morning, I stopped to read that last one by Balsekar and had

a sudden complete realization that my little egoic self does not even

exist and never did, except as an imaginary character that I created

back in early childhood with the help of others to cope with my

family and environment. I was suddenly completely alone and ever so

happy to be temporarily rid of the egoic me I'd always believed in

and allowed to run my life. I (mysteriously) stopped believing in

that other self of mine and experienced a total absence of it. In

that moment, I was (and still am) totally convinced that there is

no "other me" or ego as I always believed. I determined to not allow

the experience to just become another interesting happening in my

past but have made a commitment to know that what happened was and is

permanent, even now. I have often been back into the littler

personal me but that doesn't last and I find it is easy to remove

myself from that false little phantom I created years ago because I

just don't believe in it anymore and, as far as I am currently

concerned, it (ego) is not and never was real. In looking over old

writing, I can see by my penciled in notes, that I have

intellectually understood these teachings for a very long time but

just never could make the complete transition from understanding to a

total conviction of their reality until that morning when it just

seemed to happen. Ramesh writes about the process where we go from

intellectual comprehension to a deep heart-felt conviction, so I

guess my process (and yours) has followed a normal path - so far.

good luck,

jim

February 20, 2004

Dear Alakeshwar,

You are facing a problem which is experienced by many. From what you have

written, it appears that you are 'doing' the vichara the right way; but

remember 'doing' itself is an activity- a mental activity- which will be used

by the 'ego' to its own ends. The real vichara starts when 'doing' ceases.

Actually 'Self Enquiry' being the direct path is also the steepest climb. You

need to have some preparation before you plunge into it. The aids to the mental

strength like breath control, objective meditation, mantra japa etc. can be

used to strengthen the control over mind. In my particular case before Bhagavan

Sri Ramana entered my life I had been practising objective meditation for years.

The self enquiry gave me the right direction and the change from objective to

subjective vichara was not much of a problem. You can even continue the way you

are doing right now and if you have the perseverance and patience to overcome

initial frustrations the strength of mind will increase gradually and the

'doing' part or the 'methodology' part will gradually give way to spontenous

flow of just 'being'.

Yours in Bhagavan

sidhartha

-

alakeshwar

RamanaMaharshi

Friday, February 20, 2004 7:39 PM