Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Avril, As you can tell you have attracted the attention of numerous folks on this list with your kindergarten questions :-). Me being in kindergarten also, I am uniquely qualified to dispel any knowledge that you have with my ignorance :-). You see I can write this email without thinking because I do that all day long at work. I speak and write without thinking. And therefore get myself in trouble :-). Here's a new idea for you: Descartes said "I think therefore I am." An Indian swami replied "Well, then who are you between two thoughts?" Ha Ha Ha. Western mind is easily tripped (so is the Eastern, but for now let me be sympathetic to the Eastern ideas since we are dealing with an Eastern teacher.) In all of these discussions, I have one simple question for you: Where is your Heart in any of this? And why do you seek these answers? If you keep negating any glimmer of wisdom coming your way by engaging in a play of light between two mirrors, you may never find yourself leaving this "hall of mirrors". Why not doubt your ability to think straight about these things? Instead of having so much faith in your doubt. :-) The Heart knows but the mind races around seeking after what the Heart already is. These words, all of these discussions are the finger pointing to the moon. Not the moon. So until the NASA decides to send you to the moon your best bet is to find your own way. No, the self is not acquired. It is who you are. You are shedding the illusion, the mist, the clothes that don't fit you. Is this another becoming, another desire? Is this yet another hankering after some thing, some object, some sense of security? Yes. But it could be the ultimate search, because now you are searching about why you are searching. The final desire for freedom is also a desire but it is the one desire that lights the funeral pyre of all Desire, is what we say in Hindu philosophy. Faith can deliver you to the doors very quickly. But few have this Love brightly shining. It is usually hidden. Few call the Friend loudly at all hours of the day. Therefore various tricks on how to trap the mind are devised. Of which self inquiry and vichara are spoken of by Ramana and his devotees. In the state of surrender, integration, oneness, you don't stop thinking about how to conduct your daily life, but you might experience greater peace, tranquility, flow in your daily existence. For example even now you don't have to think "hair please grow, heart please beat, blood please circulate, sun please rise, etc." each day, each moment. So all these things are going on, you needn't burden yourself with control over these things. Nor do you need to burden yourself with the worries about the other aspects of your life. You still act but you no longer have a sense that says "I need to act in order to preserve myself, or further my interests." You know deeply you are protected, whole, taken care of. You know that who you are is indestructible therefore the very nature of your life and actions is quite different. This is a practical thing: "how do I reduce stress in my life?" I engage in this so-called spiritual "whatever" because it lightens my load, it helps me remember that this whole thing called Life could be a big joke instead of the tragedy that it seems from time to time. The girl being attacked in the street would definitely get my support. In the heat of the moment without thinking I would react in that situation. But in the big picture we may wish to remember that there may be reasons for that girl experiencing what she is. And she has a choice about how she perceives that whole incident after the fact. Did she become more bitter about life or did her load get lightened? Sometimes a tragedy helps our ego to cave in and then our true nature, and the support of the Universe shines through. So could it be possible that the soul of this girl chose a huge challenge like this to bring remembrance of her true nature to herself? In this state of "surrender" or integration, we don't stop fighting evil, but we remember that evil is nothing but light concealed. A being who has become so distant from his Source that he resorts to fear, violence. So we fight with compassion and awareness that our "enemy" is also the same light that we are. This is the basis of eastern martial arts. I digress, but the point is quite simple: let go everything and tell me what remains. There is nothing but gold, but you have not realized this yet, you are still engaged in doubt, therefore the fake gold concept needs to be used. When you stop identifying with something other than who you truly are then you may say that there is only That. Until then it may be useful to know that you are in kindergarten. And to engage in this "ultimate search", this "ultimate desire" with the faith, love and time that it deserves. The biggest romance of your life, and all you can do is doubt, doubt, doubt? It's been fun, thanks for the quest-I-on. Well, I better get back to kindergarten now, my teachers are waiting... Break's over... Time to keep quiet now Papaji. Ash RamanaMaharshi, Avril Sanya <avrilsanya> wrote: > > Hello Ashish, > > Thank you. > I believe I am in kindergarten, because of all these wonderings.:-) > > You say > The mind may never get to a stage of not desiring. But who you are is not the mind. > > Yes, in my little kindergarten naiveté, I think mind and desire are the same. > Sometimes the desire is for a toy, sometime for enlightenment. > > You say, who you are is not the mind. > Reading that, I am now thinking, is it the same mind that is creating something which is not the mind? > And then chasing it? > > To be in peace, it means you are no longer > using knowledge or understanding or any mental faculties. > > This puzzles me. > How did you type that email-post without using your faculties? > How do you live life, without using knowledge, understanding or mental faculties? > > Or are you saying living and to be in peace, just cannot go together? > > Don't even seek to clear the mind, that in itself will keep the mind from stilling itself. > > This is very good.Thank you. > > > Peace or desirelessness cannot be thought into being. > > Are you saying peace or desirelessness are more thougths? > > > So no rejection, no acceptance. > > I wonder, how would ordinary living be with this no rejection, no acceptance. > > You come across a violent injustice being done, a young girl being attacked on the street by hoodlums, I am curious what would your no rejection, no acceptance, do in this situation. > So surrender, giving up control, giving up any perceived burdens,wishes, etc > > This is now the new burden, at least for me.<LOL> > It seems rather than giving up control, it is more to see just what control do I have over anything. > Why is all this of any importance to you? What do you really seek? > > > This is a very good question.I was with the question for quite some time. > And the answer at the moment is that I don't know. > I really don't know what is it that I seek. > Or for what reason. > > Wait, that is not correct. > > What I don't know, is whether what I believe I am seeking and the reason for that seeking, is not the work of the same desiring mind. > > To find the real gold we have to be willing to give up the fake gold. > > This is one of areas where I am confused and must be the reason for the repeated failure to go to the next class from kindergarten.:- ) > > On many occassions Ramana (I do not know whether other sages also), says there is nothing other than the Absolute, the Self, the I-I. > > In which case, can there be fake gold to be discarded? > > Everything is only gold, is it not? > > Thank you for your sharing,...no I did not felt preached to. > However the wonderings, remain wandering. > > Love > > Avril > > > > innerhike <ash.mahajan@w...> wrote: > Avril, > > It is quite humble of you to say that you are in the kindergarten of > spirituality. If I ever think I have made some progress, along comes > an experience for me to re-examine how much "progress" I have really > made. > > In Zen they speak of having a beginner's mind. In other words, no > matter how advanced you may be, always let go of your understanding > and start at the very beginning each day. > > After all these nondual teachings are all about us reducing our > knowledge, not gaining more knowledge. This is my humble opinion. > > The mind may never get to a stage of not desiring. But who you are > is not the mind. If you discover this state, then you are beyond > mind right away. Transcending the mind is the focus of all major > eastern philosophies. To be in peace, it means you are no longer > using knowledge or understanding or any mental faculties. Peace or > desirelessness cannot be thought into being. > > How to get to this stage? > > In my experience for me to be in peace, I have to let go of all > concepts, concerns, cares, ideas, questions, quests, etc. Anything > in the mind, let it go. Don't even seek to clear the mind, that in > itself will keep the mind from stilling itself. All the trash, all > the stuff, let it be. Let the garbage stay right where it is. It > will dissipate in time. Just be dedicated to sitting still, to being > neutral. So no rejection, no acceptance. > > A disciple of Ramana Maharshi, whom I had the honor of visiting and > following, by the name of Papaji, said "keep quiet. Don't activate > the mind. Everything is passing into the past. Don't chase after > it." > > Really this is not easy because our minds are habituated towards > seeking and doing and tasting more and more things. Even gathering > Ramana-knowledge is part of this acquisition tendency. Even my > blabbering here on this forum is a form of this tendency, unless I > choose to do this in a state of awareness in which I say Father you > guide me and my words. > > So surrender, giving up control, giving up any perceived burdens, > wishes, etc. Taking time to enter the place of no-time. Saying > hello to your Friend called God, Bigger Self, non-ego, Universe. > These are all ways to enter the state described in this passage that > you have asked about. At least that is my humble, and possibly > incorrect opinion. > > Why is all this of any importance to you? What do you really seek? > > I ask this not to offend you. Some people get into "spirituality" > thinking it will make them happier, give them more stuff, stability > in their life. But in fact spirituality may take your stuff away. > And increase external instability. To find the real gold we have to > be willing to give up the fake gold. It is as simple as that. > > Please know that if my words sound like preaching, that is my own > limitation. I am trying to share something that words cannot touch. > > With best wishes to you, > > Ashish > > > RamanaMaharshi, Avril Sanya <avrilsanya> > wrote: > > Hello Sidharta and everybody. > > > > I discovered Shri Ramana, some time back and it was/is just > beautiful. > > > > I am still in the kindergarten of spirituality and have just joined > this List. > > > > Reading up and specially would like to thank Viorica for all the > postings on the Nature of Self. > > > > Is the following excerpts from the sage Ashtavakra? > > I have only heard about sage Ashtavakra, not read anything. > > > > It is said below "When the mind does not desire or grieve or reject > or accept or feel happy or angry.". > > > > I wonder whether the mind can ever, not-desire? > > > > When it is said below to refrain from accepting and rejecting > anything, I am wondering who is being asked to refrain? > > > > And whether refraining is not again in some sense another rejecting? > > > > I apologize if these are some silly questions, as I said, I do not > know much. > > > > Much love to everybody > > > > Avril > > > > > > sdalakoti <sdalakoti@j...> wrote: > > Excerpts from "Ashtavakra Samhita" > > > > "It is bondage when the mind desires or grieves for > anything,rejects or accepts anything,feels happy or angry on > anything." > > "Liberation is attained when the mind doesnot desire or grieve or > reject or accept or feel happy or angry." > > "It is bondage when the mind is attached to any sense experience. > It is liberation when the mind is detached from all sense > experiences." > > When there is no "I" there is liberation; when there is"I" there is > bondage.Considering this, easily refrain from accepting or rejecting > anything." > > Love > > sidhartha > > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > > Un: RamanaMaharshi > > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > > > Sponsor > > Click Here > > > > > > Links > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi/ > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends > today! Download Messenger Now > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi > > > Sponsor > Click Here > > > Links > > > RamanaMaharshi/ > > > RamanaMaharshi > > Terms of Service. > > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Thank you for your reply. I liked that Indian swami's answer.:-) You asked where is my heart, why do I seek the answers. I had replied in an earlier mail,.......I do not know why. There is a helplessness in all this. You said: Why not doubt your ability to think straight about these things? Instead of having so much faith in your doubt. :-) In an earlier reply, I had said, I do not know that whatever, doubts and the answers to the doubts, the seeking, the nature of the seeking,all that is not once again the creation of the mind. Being with your reply, it occurs that even the suggestion that the Heart knows, is that not also a work of the mind? Thank you for your views on "evil". I liked that. What is left when you let go of everything? I do not know, for the struggle is with the very " let go of everything" and thus not having achieved this, or atleast believing I have not achieved this, I cannot answer the question. Yes all the pat answers from Shree Ramana's sayings etc, are there to be typed, but that does not mean anything. How has Ash let gone of everything? By saying so? How do you believe that complete let-go has happened by Ash? You said... There is nothing but gold, but you have not realized this yet, you are still engaged in doubt, I was with this, for some time. And wonder whether being engaged in doubting, would that be make the gold, fake? therefore the fake gold concept needs to be used. When you stop identifying with something other than who you truly are then you may say that there is only That. The wondering is,whether there is anything which is not truly what there is, such that an identifying with that is possible and that such an indentifying would then be a some sort of moving away from that which truly is. I apologize, if this is not clear, for of late, it is becoming increasingly difficult to state or articulate what the wondering is really about. Until then it may be useful to know that you are in kindergarten. And to engage in this "ultimate search", this "ultimate desire" with the faith, love and time that it deserves. OK You say The biggest romance of your life, and all you can do is doubt, doubt, doubt? If that is happening, then that is happening, is it not? Thank you for your kind reply. innerhike <ash.mahajan (AT) worldnet (DOT) att.net> wrote: Avril,As you can tell you have attracted the attention of numerous folks on this list with your kindergarten questions :-).Me being in kindergarten also, I am uniquely qualified to dispel any knowledge that you have with my ignorance :-).You see I can write this email without thinking because I do that all day long at work. I speak and write without thinking. And therefore get myself in trouble :-).Here's a new idea for you:Descartes said "I think therefore I am."An Indian swami replied "Well, then who are you between two thoughts?"Ha Ha Ha. Western mind is easily tripped (so is the Eastern, but for now let me be sympathetic to the Eastern ideas since we are dealing with an Eastern teacher.)In all of these discussions, I have one simple question for you:Where is your Heart in any of this?And why do you seek these answers?If you keep negating any glimmer of wisdom coming your way by engaging in a play of light between two mirrors, you may never find yourself leaving this "hall of mirrors".Why not doubt your ability to think straight about these things? Instead of having so much faith in your doubt. :-)The Heart knows but the mind races around seeking after what the Heart already is.These words, all of these discussions are the finger pointing to the moon. Not the moon. So until the NASA decides to send you to the moon your best bet is to find your own way.No, the self is not acquired. It is who you are. You are shedding the illusion, the mist, the clothes that don't fit you. Is this another becoming, another desire? Is this yet another hankering after some thing, some object, some sense of security? Yes. But it could be the ultimate search, because now you are searching about why you are searching. The final desire for freedom is also a desire but it is the one desire that lights the funeral pyre of all Desire, is what we say in Hindu philosophy. Faith can deliver you to the doors very quickly. But few have this Love brightly shining. It is usually hidden. Few call the Friend loudly at all hours of the day. Therefore various tricks on how to trap the mind are devised. Of which self inquiry and vichara are spoken of by Ramana and his devotees.In the state of surrender, integration, oneness, you don't stop thinking about how to conduct your daily life, but you might experience greater peace, tranquility, flow in your daily existence. For example even now you don't have to think "hair please grow, heart please beat, blood please circulate, sun please rise, etc." each day, each moment. So all these things are going on, you needn't burden yourself with control over these things. Nor do you need to burden yourself with the worries about the other aspects of your life. You still act but you no longer have a sense that says "I need to act in order to preserve myself, or further my interests." You know deeply you are protected, whole, taken care of. You know that who you are is indestructible therefore the very nature of your life and actions is quite different.This is a practical thing: "how do I reduce stress in my life?" I engage in this so-called spiritual "whatever" because it lightens my load, it helps me remember that this whole thing called Life could be a big joke instead of the tragedy that it seems from time to time.The girl being attacked in the street would definitely get my support. In the heat of the moment without thinking I would react in that situation. But in the big picture we may wish to remember that there may be reasons for that girl experiencing what she is. And she has a choice about how she perceives that whole incident after the fact. Did she become more bitter about life or did her load get lightened? Sometimes a tragedy helps our ego to cave in and then our true nature, and the support of the Universe shines through. So could it be possible that the soul of this girl chose a huge challenge like this to bring remembrance of her true nature to herself?In this state of "surrender" or integration, we don't stop fighting evil, but we remember that evil is nothing but light concealed. A being who has become so distant from his Source that he resorts to fear, violence. So we fight with compassion and awareness that our "enemy" is also the same light that we are. This is the basis of eastern martial arts.I digress, but the point is quite simple: let go everything and tell me what remains.There is nothing but gold, but you have not realized this yet, you are still engaged in doubt, therefore the fake gold concept needs to be used. When you stop identifying with something other than who you truly are then you may say that there is only That. Until then it may be useful to know that you are in kindergarten. And to engage in this "ultimate search", this "ultimate desire" with the faith, love and time that it deserves. The biggest romance of your life, and all you can do is doubt, doubt, doubt?It's been fun, thanks for the quest-I-on.Well, I better get back to kindergarten now, my teachers are waiting... Break's over... Time to keep quiet now Papaji.Ash Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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