Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Dear All: >From my own experience, I want to caution all devotees that nowadays, there is a tendency to oversimplify Great Sages's teachings incluing Sri. Bhagavaan's. There is NO short-cut to liberation. If some appear to be realizing faster (assuming that you can confirm that they are indeed 'actually realized') they may have gotten 'cooked' substantially either in this life or in the past. In any case, my understanding is that there is NO 'cookie-cutter' approach to liberation. Also, following the 20 qualities Sri. Krishna specifically mentions in Bhagavath Geetha (Ch. 13 v 7 thru 11) is a MUST to prepare or 'cook' oneself to be ready to be eaten (by the Guru/Lord); these are NOT qualities applicable only for a particular religion/sect/clan/creed or race. These are universal "base values" that need to be practiced in day-to-day interactional life of every 'seeker'. (Note: I am not trying to sell Bhagavath Geetha here, these 20 are basic human values and one may have come to practice these simply because of their nature or even through other spirituo/religious texts or teachings etc.) To simply think that anyone can get liberated by doing 'Self- Inquiry' from one fine day with or without an intellectual understanding but WITHOUT changing their basic traits to match with the 20 mentioned in BG are SIMPLY WASTING THEIR (and possibly others') TIME . Just thought will share this in this forum as the postings indicate various types of member devotees... love to all and thanks Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Murthy, > To simply think that anyone can get liberated by doing 'Self- > Inquiry' from one fine day with or without an intellectual > understanding but WITHOUT changing their basic traits to match with > the 20 mentioned in BG are SIMPLY WASTING THEIR (and possibly > others') TIME . Thank you Murthy, but here is another possibility: When ego rises all else rises. It is very, very fortunate to take to vichara from the very beginning. All else comes from this. If one truly takes to vichara and seeks the ego and its point of arising, all 'base values' come good. We should not belittle the power of atma vichara. To do so is all too common in today's world. Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue"> Thank you to all those in this group who patiently and humbly continue to re-present these guidelines Joy Harsha [harsha (AT) cox (DOT) net] 03 November 2004 04:43 RamanaMaharshi Re: [RamanaMaharshi] A Word of Caution 12.0pt"> 10.0pt">Miles wrote: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > > Dear Murthy, > > > > To simply think that anyone can get liberated by doing 'Self- > > Inquiry' from one fine day with or without an intellectual > > understanding but WITHOUT changing their basic traits to match with > > the 20 mentioned in BG are SIMPLY WASTING THEIR (and possibly > > others') TIME . > > Thank you Murthy, but here is another possibility: > When ego rises all else rises. It is very, very fortunate to take to > vichara from the very beginning. All else comes from this. If one > truly takes to vichara and seeks the ego and its point of arising, all > 'base values' come good. We should not belittle the power of atma > vichara. To do so is all too common in today's world. > > Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, > Miles > ************************************* Dear Miles: Yes, the potency of atma vichara is not always obvious to everyone. When Ganapati Muni fell to Sri Ramana's feet and asked to be explained the meaning of tapas, Bhagavan said essentially to see where the mantra or the thought arises and to be merged in that, that is the true tapas. The practice of atma vichara needs essentially the spiritual maturity of the mind. When one sees that all arisings, depend on the arising of the "I" and hence the "I" becomes the primary fascination to itself.......then one cannot speak, speech flows. Love to all Harsha Community email addresses: Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Let me quote the verses 7 to 11from chapter 13 of Bhagavadgita, so that people like me can understand Murthy's view point and subsequent discussions, in proper perspective. Verse 7: Absence of conceit, absence of hypocrisy, harmlessness, accommodation, straightforwardness, reverance for the teacher, clenliness, steadfastness, self-discipline ...... Verse 8: ...... dispassion with referance to the sense objects and indeed absence of pride and seeing clearly the defects of pain n birth, death , old age and disease ........... Verse 9: ...... absence of ownership, absence of excessive affection regarding son, wife and house and always evenness of mind regarding the gain of the desirable and the undesirable ...... Verse 10: ........ and an unswerving devotion to me that is not connected to anything else; the disposition of repairing to a quite place, no longing for the company of people ...... Verse 11: .... always(dwelling upon) knowledge centered on the self, keeping in view the purpose of knowledge of the truth ---(all) this that was told is the means to knowledge, what is opposite to this is ignorance ... Love & Om Doramanof678 <manof678 > wrote: Dear All:From my own experience, I want to caution all devotees that nowadays, there is a tendency to oversimplify Great Sages's teachings incluing Sri. Bhagavaan's.There is NO short-cut to liberation. If some appear to be realizing faster (assuming that you can confirm that they are indeed 'actually realized') they may have gotten 'cooked' substantially either in this life or in the past. In any case, my understanding is that there is NO 'cookie-cutter' approach to liberation.Also, following the 20 qualities Sri. Krishna specifically mentions in Bhagavath Geetha (Ch. 13 v 7 thru 11) is a MUST to prepare or 'cook' oneself to be ready to be eaten (by the Guru/Lord); these are NOT qualities applicable only for a particular religion/sect/clan/creed or race. These are universal "base values" that need to be practiced in day-to-day interactional life of every 'seeker'.(Note: I am not trying to sell Bhagavath Geetha here, these 20 are basic human values and one may have come to practice these simply because of their nature or even through other spirituo/religious texts or teachings etc.) To simply think that anyone can get liberated by doing 'Self-Inquiry' from one fine day with or without an intellectual understanding but WITHOUT changing their basic traits to match with the 20 mentioned in BG are SIMPLY WASTING THEIR (and possibly others') TIME . Just thought will share this in this forum as the postings indicate various types of member devotees...love to all and thanks Murthy------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from . Register anything.http://us.click./J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM--~-> Post message: RamanaMaharshiSubscribe: RamanaMaharshi-Un: RamanaMaharshiList owner: RamanaMaharshi-ownerShortcut URL to this page:http://www./community/RamanaMaharshi Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:RamanaMaharshi/<*> To from this group, send an email to:RamanaMaharshi<*> Your use of is subject to: India Matrimony: Find your life partner online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Dear Miles and All: My intention was definitely NOT to belittle Self-Inquiry or Vichara or, for that matter, any other method to seek Truth in a spiritual sense. In fact, it was the other way round. It was to point out that the process of SI (and many other processes) and the goal of unrealizing the Non-Self are so sacred and devine that they should not be presented or talked about as though they are like any other object- world activity. IT IS THE WAY OF (OR OUTLOOK IN ONE's) LIFE. If I am conceitful, for instance, and practice SI, do you think I will reach the goal? Leave the goal alone, can I be said to even practice SI TRUELY if I lack such qualities as given by BG (and nicely presented by Dora, thanks Dora for this)..? If am truely seeking truth (as opposed to being a 'student of truth- seeking methodologies') then it goes without saying that I will be in the process of dropping off the untruth - including conceitfullness, hypocrisy etc. etc. Put another way, if I am (and continue to be) conceitful (again, just for an example) then however much I try to seek truth and whatever method I use including atma vichara, I will fail. Yes, even the conceitful person is only a manisfestation of the same Self which pervades everywhere but that individual who does not have these qualities or does not develop, deliberately and willingly, these qualities will NOT be able to cognize that 'EVER PRESENT'. Am I correct ? thanks & love to all, Murthy RamanaMaharshi, Miles <miles.wright@b...> wrote: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Murthy, > > > To simply think that anyone can get liberated by doing 'Self- > > Inquiry' from one fine day with or without an intellectual > > understanding but WITHOUT changing their basic traits to match with > > the 20 mentioned in BG are SIMPLY WASTING THEIR (and possibly > > others') TIME . > > Thank you Murthy, but here is another possibility: > When ego rises all else rises. It is very, very fortunate to take to vichara > from the very beginning. All else comes from this. If one truly takes to > vichara and seeks the ego and its point of arising, all 'base values' come > good. We should not belittle the power of atma vichara. To do so is all too > common in today's world. > > Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, > Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Bhagavan never made things complicated. Whether one is a sinner or saint, it does not matter. Conceited, egotistical, etc.? What are all these but notions in the mind? 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">And it is the mind itself that is undermined by Self Inquiry. 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Bhagavan’s devotees who understand the teaching do not get lost in the conceptual jungle. One starts with one thought of sin, egotism, failure, whatever, and hundred thoughts will join. What is the purpose of all that? 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I would advise any sincere devotee or aspirant to read Bhagavan’s own words. That is all that is needed. 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Love to all 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Harsha font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">manof678 [manof678 ] Tuesday, November 02, 2004 4:19 PM RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Re: A Word of Caution 12.0pt"> 12.0pt"> Dear Miles and All: My intention was definitely NOT to belittle Self-Inquiry or Vichara or, for that matter, any other method to seek Truth in a spiritual sense. In fact, it was the other way round. It was to point out that the process of SI (and many other processes) and the goal of unrealizing the Non-Self are so sacred and devine that they should not be presented or talked about as though they are like any other object- world activity. IT IS THE WAY OF (OR OUTLOOK IN ONE's) LIFE. If I am conceitful, for instance, and practice SI, do you think I will reach the goal? Leave the goal alone, can I be said to even practice SI TRUELY if I lack such qualities as given by BG (and nicely presented by Dora, thanks Dora for this)..? If am truely seeking truth (as opposed to being a 'student of truth- seeking methodologies') then it goes without saying that I will be in the process of dropping off the untruth - including conceitfullness, hypocrisy etc. etc. Put another way, if I am (and continue to be) conceitful (again, just for an example) then however much I try to seek truth and whatever method I use including atma vichara, I will fail. Yes, even the conceitful person is only a manisfestation of the same Self which pervades everywhere but that individual who does not have these qualities or does not develop, deliberately and willingly, these qualities will NOT be able to cognize that 'EVER PRESENT'. Am I correct ? thanks & love to all, Murthy RamanaMaharshi, Miles <miles.wright@b...> wrote: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Murthy, > > > To simply think that anyone can get liberated by doing 'Self- > > Inquiry' from one fine day with or without an intellectual > > understanding but WITHOUT changing their basic traits to match with > > the 20 mentioned in BG are SIMPLY WASTING THEIR (and possibly > > others') TIME . > > Thank you Murthy, but here is another possibility: > When ego rises all else rises. It is very, very fortunate to take to vichara > from the very beginning. All else comes from this. If one truly takes to > vichara and seeks the ego and its point of arising, all 'base values' come > good. We should not belittle the power of atma vichara. To do so is all too > common in today's world. > > Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, > Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Miles wrote: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > > Dear Murthy, > > > > To simply think that anyone can get liberated by doing 'Self- > > Inquiry' from one fine day with or without an intellectual > > understanding but WITHOUT changing their basic traits to match with > > the 20 mentioned in BG are SIMPLY WASTING THEIR (and possibly > > others') TIME . > > Thank you Murthy, but here is another possibility: > When ego rises all else rises. It is very, very fortunate to take to > vichara from the very beginning. All else comes from this. If one > truly takes to vichara and seeks the ego and its point of arising, all > 'base values' come good. We should not belittle the power of atma > vichara. To do so is all too common in today's world. > > Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, > Miles > ************************************* Dear Miles: Yes, the potency of atma vichara is not always obvious to everyone. When Ganapati Muni fell to Sri Ramana's feet and asked to be explained the meaning of tapas, Bhagavan said essentially to see where the mantra or the thought arises and to be merged in that, that is the true tapas. The practice of atma vichara needs essentially the spiritual maturity of the mind. When one sees that all arisings, depend on the arising of the "I" and hence the "I" becomes the primary fascination to itself.......then one cannot speak, speech flows. Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Murthy, if you are conceitful - and then practise Self-Inquiry ... see what happens? Actually this is a very good starter for practicing vichara. Here then vichara should come in. The good qualities will come all right when one does Self-Inquiry. They will envelop with the sincerity and continuity Self-Inquiry is done ... so vichara is the starter at any time. Otherwise Bhagavan would not have said all should do vichara. If you do vichara earnestly - it is for example impossible to continue to be deceitful. This tendency will silence down or exhaust itself in time. It may take some time to exhaust and may rise its head on occasion very powerful again ... then again vichara comes in, gentle but firm ... and so on and on. Otherway round: if we start to gain good qualities without vichara /surrender - it may become an unending labour. If you see it such like ... what a powerful practice is vichara! yours in Sri Bhagavan Gabriele - manof678 RamanaMaharshi Tuesday, November 02, 2004 10:19 PM [RamanaMaharshi] Re: A Word of Caution Dear Miles and All:My intention was definitely NOT to belittle Self-Inquiry or Vichara or, for that matter, any other method to seek Truth in a spiritual sense.In fact, it was the other way round. It was to point out that the process of SI (and many other processes) and the goal of unrealizing the Non-Self are so sacred and devine that they should not be presented or talked about as though they are like any other object-world activity. IT IS THE WAY OF (OR OUTLOOK IN ONE's) LIFE.If I am conceitful, for instance, and practice SI, do you think I will reach the goal? Leave the goal alone, can I be said to even practice SI TRUELY if I lack such qualities as given by BG (and nicely presented by Dora, thanks Dora for this)..?If am truely seeking truth (as opposed to being a 'student of truth-seeking methodologies') then it goes without saying that I will be in the process of dropping off the untruth - including conceitfullness, hypocrisy etc. etc. Put another way, if I am (and continue to be) conceitful (again, just for an example) then however much I try to seek truth and whatever method I use including atma vichara, I will fail. Yes, even the conceitful person is only a manisfestation of the same Self which pervades everywhere but that individual who does not have these qualities or does not develop, deliberately and willingly, these qualities will NOT be able to cognize that 'EVER PRESENT'. Am I correct ?thanks & love to all, Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya In the hope of shedding a little more light on this interesting thread, here is a snippit from K. Lakshmana Sarma's (aka: 'Who') 'Maha Yoga'. The Quest of the real Self is fundamentally different from all the methods of winning Deliverance which are in vogue. [Although this text was originally published in 1937, the dialectic remains valid today and certainly pertains to the current discussion.] These are known as Yogas. Four of them are generally known, namely, the Yogas of action, devotion, of mind-control and of right understanding. The Sage [i.e. Ramana Maharshi] compares these four with the Quest in the following: 'The Quest, ''Who is he, to whom belong actions, separateness (from God), ignorance or separateness (from the Reality)?'', is itself the yogas of action, of devotion, of right undestanding and of mind-control. That is the True State (of the Self) the untainted and blissful Experience of one's own Self where, the seeker, the 'I', being extinct, these eight have no place.' (Ulladu Narpadu Anubandham v. 14) Here is made clear that in the four Yogas the follower takes the ego to be himself, and thus attributes to the Self some one or other of the defects that appear in himself because of the conclusion. The Yogi of action takes it that the Self is the doer of actions and is thus bound to suffer their effects; he wants to neutralise these actions by other actions. The Yogi of devotion is persuaded that he is other than god and needs to become united to Him by devotion. The Yogi of right understanding thinks that the Self is in ignorance and wants to remove that ignorance. The Yogi of mind-control thinks that the Self is separated from the reality and seeks reunion by mind-control. These are wrong assumptions, because there is no individual soul because the whole world-order is an illusion. When the real Self is sought and found, it will be found that that Self was never bound, but is ever perfect. The seeker of the Self starts with this knowledge. When by the Quest the ego dies, it will be seen that neither these four defects nor the four remedies for them, have any place in the Egoless State, which alone is real. The Sage once told this writer that the Quest is the Great Yoga Maha Yoga and the reason is that, as shown here, all the Yogas are included in the Quest. (This edition: Sri Ramanasramam, 2001; 178-180) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Dear Gabriele, Miles, Harsha and All: Yes, I thankfully see Gabriele's and others' viewpoints. You are all emphasising Sri. Bhagavaan's message that, when 'I' is sincerely sought as part of Vichara practice, the ties to Bad as well as Good habits & pursuits will weaken and drop off completely over time. With the sincerity of the 'I' pursuit intensifying, preponderance of the 20 qualities that Sri. Krishna mentions in BG will develop automatically in the outward life of the seeker side by side with Vichara. At least, this is how it is happening in my case and I see that even if a particular tie (to a good or a bad habit) is seen to be very strong, Sri. aruNaachalaa's Grace makes it very easy to overcome. In fact, if I pause and take a good overall view of myself and the events in the recent past, the overwhelming feeling is: it is He, aruNaachala ramanaa, who gets everything done in a timely fashion. love to all of you, Murthy RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Murthy, > > if you are conceitful - and then practise Self-Inquiry ... see what happens? > Actually this is a very good starter for practicing vichara. Here then vichara should come in. > The good qualities will come all right when one does Self-Inquiry. They will envelop with the > sincerity and continuity Self-Inquiry is done ... so vichara is the starter at any time. > Otherwise Bhagavan would not have said all should do vichara. > If you do vichara earnestly - it is for example impossible to continue to be deceitful. This tendency > will silence down or exhaust itself in time. It may take some time to exhaust and may rise its head on occasion > very powerful again ... then again vichara comes in, gentle but firm ... and so on and on. > > Otherway round: if we start to gain good qualities without vichara /surrender - it may become an unending labour. > > If you see it such like ... what a powerful practice is vichara! > > > yours in Sri Bhagavan > Gabriele > > - > manof678 > RamanaMaharshi > Tuesday, November 02, 2004 10:19 PM > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: A Word of Caution > > > > Dear Miles and All: > > My intention was definitely NOT to belittle Self-Inquiry or Vichara > or, for that matter, any other method to seek Truth in a spiritual > sense. > > In fact, it was the other way round. It was to point out that the > process of SI (and many other processes) and the goal of unrealizing > the Non-Self are so sacred and devine that they should not be > presented or talked about as though they are like any other object- > world activity. IT IS THE WAY OF (OR OUTLOOK IN ONE's) LIFE. > > If I am conceitful, for instance, and practice SI, do you think I > will reach the goal? Leave the goal alone, can I be said to even > practice SI TRUELY if I lack such qualities as given by BG (and > nicely presented by Dora, thanks Dora for this)..? > > If am truely seeking truth (as opposed to being a 'student of truth- > seeking methodologies') then it goes without saying that I will be in > the process of dropping off the untruth - including conceitfullness, > hypocrisy etc. etc. > > Put another way, if I am (and continue to be) conceitful (again, just > for an example) then however much I try to seek truth and whatever > method I use including atma vichara, I will fail. Yes, even the > conceitful person is only a manisfestation of the same Self which > pervades everywhere but that individual who does not have these > qualities or does not develop, deliberately and willingly, these > qualities will NOT be able to cognize that 'EVER PRESENT'. Am I > correct ? > > thanks & love to all, Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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