Time and Space and Egoless State

January 11, 2005

Miles,

Let me clarify my position on why I feel there is time

required to gain and establish the Egoless state.

Not many months ago, for the first time in my conscious memory,

I did get a glimpse of the Egoless state that

Ramana precisely describes in your first

quote:

> Just on rising from sleep, and before seeing the objective world,

> there is a state of awareness which is your pure Self. That must be

> known.

In fact Ramana says we constantly go through this state every

night and morning and even between one thought and another. But since

we are attached to one thought and jump to another before fully

leaving the first one, we are unable to catch this Thoughtless State.

Coming back to this experience of the blank State, it happened

out of the blue. I tried to find what did I 'do' or 'not do' that

made me aware of the 'nameless' state of being. The only correlations

I could get are: A week before this experience I was intensely trying

to watch my awareness, and also gained a lot of insight (actually,

jolts) from reading Nisargadatta's sudden comments in his

conversations.

Importantly, a day before or maybe on the same day, I had also

fervently prayed to Ramana, 'Show me what is Realization of the Self?'

with an intense desire and sense of frustration.

But When it happened, since it happened from Sleep to Waking, it

was like opening your eyes and not seeing anything (not even black)

and similarly all your senses and mind with no thoughts. In a moment,

I was scared, "who am I? What happened to

all my history of what all happened to me and so on?" Then the

'I am so and so' feeling came and attached itself to the awareness.

From that day, slowly little by little, reading many books, I

realized that THAT is the Egoless state. See how exactly Ramana

describes that. But I was puzzled, why that State itself did not

have any other impact on my life, if it was very powerful?

Through further reading, especially through Sri sadhu Om, 'Who's

Maha Yoga, and Ramanas translation of Drig Drshya Viveka, etc, and my

own Self Attention, I pieced together that, that state, Samadhi,

Egoless state, is when the mind has not yet risen. (It is more like

Nirvikalpa Samadhi) - which Ramana describes as "Without thoughts

rising, staying in the Self".

But I think that to reach there, all thoughts should subside

either by ignoring them constantly or by cutting them with the Sword

of discrimination in one sweep. Self-attention (AWA), I see through

practice, is when mind's predispositions (vasanas) are burnt or

nullified as they rise.

THIS IS WHY, I STILL BELIEVE that EXPERIENCE is a one-time thing,

WHEREAS ONLY THROUGH PRACTICE IN TIME IT GETS ESTABLISHED AND BECOMES

REALIZATION, NEVER TO BE SHAKEN OFF. (Manolaya versus Manonasa).

Maybe this is Why Ramana got a glimpse in Madurai, then was still

practising and even after coming to Arunachalam spent long years

lost in unaware Samadhi. Of course

Even after he 'came out' to ashram life, Kunju swami notes that in

earlier days Ramana

used to get into long periods of Kevala Nirvikalpa samadhi (unaware

of sorroundings) more often (thrice a week?), whenever vedic chanting

was done in the evening and few years later, the

frequency of these became less and he points out, casually, a wise

man he is, "He started remaining in Sahaja".

Meaning - the Self Attention process has established so well that

even when eyes are open Self is turned inward and is not pulled out

by the senses.

So in the past few months, my question has been, how do I get to that

state consciously. Reading Sadhu Om, Lakshmana Sarma, I realize

that going from Waking to That Fourth state is what is expected. And

Ramana mentions constant clinging to the first person through Vichara

systematically gives you that. As you keep getting back to the Sense

of I, things, thoughts, world and mind are automatically ignored

until they dont even rise. I think this is the process description of

realization.

Yesterday I read in Annamalai Swamy's book, Ramana says clearly,

"One time experience is not enough. It soon slips away. As one

practices, all thoughts will be eradicated gradually and finally

the thought that I am the body will also drop away."

So, as long as the illusion of this body and mind remains, there

is time and effort involved in it. Once you have transcended them,

even this effort and transcending are seen as illusion but as Ramana

says elsewhere, "a problem in the dream state has to be solved by an

effort or event in the dream state only".

I dont know whether you believe that by repeating these quotes

of Ramana on reality on Time, or through meditation on them, or

through trying to visualize their reality (Bhava Bala or Abhyasa

Bala), they will come true.

May be. (Provoking you

Ravi

***

RamanaMaharshi, Miles <miles.wright@b...>

wrote:

> om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

>

> > For everyone else, it [time] arises.

>

> This is down to outlook.

>

> M. : Again, there is no time and space in your sleep. They are

concepts

> which arise after the 'I'-thought has arisen. Before the rise of the

> 'I'-thought the concepts are absent. Therefore you are beyond time

and

> space. The 'I'-thought is only limited 'I'. The real 'I' is

unlimited,

> universal, beyond time and space. They are absent in sleep. Just on

rising

> from sleep, and before seeing the objective world, there is a state

of

> awareness which is your pure Self. That must be known.

>

> D. : But I do not realise it.

>

> M. : It is not an object to be realised. You are that. Who is

there to

> realise and what?'

> (Talks; 311)

>

> 'There is only one Infinite Self.' (Talks; 20)

> 'Mere ignorance does not rule out the fact of your existence.'

(Talks; 427)

>

> This frittering away of mental energy merely perpetuates the human

condition

> and stimulates the endless chitter chatter of the uncontrolled mind

and its

> supposition about 'One day'...'one day soon' ...'soon ...the

egoless state

> will be won'. Fortunately the rejuvenating inner depth of mental

silence is

> available to everyone, right now, even amidst the noise of daily

life. At

> times one might lose sight of this simple fact. And, when this

happens, the

> illusion of free-will, and all this entails, will appear to take

hold, in

> time and space.

>

> '...time and space are only concepts of mind. But swarupa (the Real

Self)

> lies beyond mind, time and space. Distance does not count in the

Self.'

> (Talks; 68)

>

> 'There is no non-self in fact. The non-self also exists in the

Self. It is

> the Self which speaks of the non-self because it has forgotten

itself, it

> conceives something as non-self, which is after all nothing but

itself.'

> (Talks; 310)

>

> Regards,

> Miles

January 11, 2005

om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Ravi,

> Let me clarify my position on why I feel there is time

> required to gain and establish the Egoless state.

This belief/feeling that time is needed is mindstuff. I am well aware of this

attitude. I knew someone who regular as clockwork set up dates by which time he

would become realised. The dates came and went a new one being set each time.

All the while he practiced vichara vigilantly and lo and behold when it was

least expected the flimsy illusion was torn aside. Who needs this time? 'I' do.

Who am 'I'?

> Maybe this is Why Ramana got a glimpse in Madurai, then was still

> practising and even after coming to Arunachalam spent long years

> lost in unaware Samadhi.

Please note: Bhagavan said: 'In the vision of death, though all the senses were

benumbed, the aham sphurana (Self-awareness) was clearly evident, and so I

realised that it was that awareness that we call 'I', and not the body. This

Self-awareness never decays. It is unrelated to anything. It is Self-luminous.

Even if this body is burnt, it will not be affected. Hence, I realised on that

very day so clearly that that was 'I'. ' (Letters from Sri Ramanasramam; 22nd

November, 1945)

And further when asked if there was a period when Bhagavan did sadhana, He

states: 'Sadhana? Sadhana for what? What is there to do sadhana for? Sitting

like this is itself sadhana. I used to sit like this always. I used to close my

eyes then; now I keep them open. That is the only difference. What is now, was

then also. What was there then, is also here now. Sadhana is necessary only if

there is a thing other than 'I', Self. Sadhana is required only for one who

does not look towards the Self which is permanent, but is deluded by looking at

the body etc. which are transitory and delusive; but not for one who sees the

Self and so does not see anything else different.' (Letters...23rd August,

1946)

Here and elsewhere Bhagavan is clear that there was no sadhana after the initial

experience of Self. The fact that some devotees seem to claim otherwise is

neither here nor there. Let's take Bhagavan's word for it!

> I dont know whether you believe that by repeating these quotes

> of Ramana on reality on Time, or through meditation on them, or

> through trying to visualize their reality (Bhava Bala or Abhyasa

> Bala), they will come true.

This is a Ramana Maharshi site. Many members enjoy the quotes. Hence they are

most welcome here. As to belief ...?...Truth is not dependent on belief nor

does it need to come true. It is not a process of becoming...It ever IS. That

one does not wish to accept it, or consider it, or decides that it does not fit

with a certain perspective, is simply upadhi (limitation).

'Sadhana is necessary but for what pupose? His Self is there at all times and at

all places. So there is no need to try and get it from somewhere else. Sadhana

is only to get rid of the bodily and other illusions which are in the way of

the self standing up as Self. This delusion arises only by thinking that this

bodily world is real, instead of looking at the Self, which is real. Sadhana is

only to get rid of this illusion. Otherwise, why would there be sadhana for the

Self to attain its own Self? He who has realised his own Self does not

recognize anything else.' (Letters...23rd August, 1946)

K. Lakshmana Sarma ('Who') reminds us in Guru Ramana Vachana Mala, 'Never worry

thinking,'when shall I attain this state?'; this state transcends both space

and time and is neither far nor near.' Why then should we disregard this

command of the Guru!

> THIS IS WHY, I STILL BELIEVE that EXPERIENCE is a one-time thing,

> WHEREAS ONLY THROUGH PRACTICE IN TIME IT GETS ESTABLISHED AND BECOMES

> REALIZATION, NEVER TO BE SHAKEN OFF. (Manolaya versus Manonasa).

Experience of the Self is constant. What 'I' believes is of no consequence. It

is ego which comes and goes, believing this one day, that the next. Removing

the ego is the only effective practice. Bhagavan has said that the temporary

stillness of thoughts will never lead to total destruction of thought even

though it last for thousands of years. The one who experiences such stillness

must be enquired into. This same one considers that it will take such and such

a time to attain salvation etc. His presence is excellent fodder for vichara.

As long as there appears one who thinks they are progressing or feels there is

no progress there is fodder for vichara. The annihilation of ego happens all at

once and not in dribs and drabs but an increase in freedom from unwanted

thoughts is said to be an indicator of the efficacy of the practice. Atma Vidya

is not knowledge to be acquired but rather the giving up of one's ignorant

outlook. The Self is already the Self.

Regards,

Miles

"ekam sat vipraa bahudhaa vadanti

That which exists is One; sages call it by various names."

January 11, 2005

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thank you dear Miles! For the people new

to Bhagavan’s teachings, there is nothing better than reading the words of a

true devotee who knows Bhagavan and his teachings intimately. And for a devotee

of Bhagavan, there is nothing sweeter than hearing another devotee speak of

Bhagavan and his teachings.

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Lots of love

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Harsha

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Miles

[miles.wright (AT) btopenworld (DOT) com]

Tuesday, January 11, 2005

10:08 AM

RamanaMaharshi

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Time

and Space and Egoless State

12.0pt">

om namo bhagavate sri

ramanaya

Dear Ravi,

12.0pt">> Let me clarify my position on why I feel there is time

> required to gain and establish the Egoless state.

This belief/feeling that time is needed is mindstuff. I am well aware of this

attitude. I knew someone who regular as clockwork set up dates by which time he

would become realised. The dates came and went a new one being set each time.

All the while he practiced vichara vigilantly and lo and behold when it was

least expected the flimsy illusion was torn aside. Who needs this time? 'I' do.

Who am 'I'?

12.0pt">> Maybe this is Why Ramana got a glimpse in Madurai, then was still

> practising and even after coming to Arunachalam spent long years

> lost in unaware Samadhi.

Please note: Bhagavan said: 'In the vision of death, though all the senses were

benumbed, the aham sphurana

(Self-awareness) was clearly evident, and so I realised that it was that

awareness that we call 'I', and not the body. This Self-awareness never decays.

It is unrelated to anything. It is Self-luminous. Even if this body is burnt,

it will not be affected. Hence, I realised on that very day so clearly that

italic">that was 'I'. ' (Letters from Sri Ramanasramam; 22nd November,

1945)

And further when asked if there was a period when Bhagavan did sadhana, He

states: 'Sadhana? Sadhana for

what? What is there to do sadhana for? Sitting like this is itself sadhana. I

used to sit like this always. I used to close my eyes then; now I keep them

open. That is the only difference. What is now, was then also. What was there

then, is also here now. Sadhana

is necessary only if there is a thing other than 'I', Self. Sadhana is required

only for one who does

not look towards the Self which is permanent, but is deluded by looking at the

body etc. which are transitory and delusive; but not for one who sees the Self

and so does not see anything else different.' (Letters...23rd August, 1946)

Here and elsewhere Bhagavan is clear that there was no sadhana after the initial experience of

Self. The fact that some devotees seem to claim otherwise is neither here nor

there. Let's take Bhagavan's word for it!

> I dont know whether

you believe that by repeating these quotes

> of Ramana on reality on Time, or through meditation on them, or

> through trying to visualize their reality (Bhava Bala or Abhyasa

> Bala), they will come true.

This is a Ramana Maharshi

site. Many members enjoy the quotes. Hence they are most welcome here. As to

belief ...?...Truth is not dependent on belief nor does it need to come true.

It is not a process of becoming...It ever IS. That one does not wish to accept

it, or consider it, or decides that it does not fit with a certain perspective,

is simply upadhi (limitation).

'Sadhana is necessary but for

what pupose? His Self is there at all times and at all places. So there is no

need to try and get it from somewhere else. Sadhana

is only to get rid of the bodily and other illusions which are in the way of

the self standing up as Self. This delusion arises only by thinking that this

bodily world is real, instead of looking at the Self, which is real. Sadhana is

only to get rid of this

illusion. Otherwise, why would there be sadhana for the Self to attain its own

Self? He who has realised his own Self does not recognize anything else.'

(Letters...23rd August, 1946)

K. Lakshmana Sarma ('Who') reminds us in Guru Ramana Vachana

Mala, 'Never worry thinking,'when shall I attain this state?'; this state

transcends both space and time and is neither far nor near.' Why then should we

disregard this command of the Guru!

12.0pt">> THIS IS WHY, I STILL BELIEVE that EXPERIENCE is a one-time thing,