to Joy

[Guest guest]

Dear Alakeshwar,

 

I might suggest that first start by noticing that you exist. Look

deeply at this. See that this is something that you know even deeper

than ANY mental knowledge.

 

Then ask, 'where does these sense of I come from?" and look within to

see.

 

You may notice something. When you do, let your self notice that,

whatever it is, that it is noticed by someone. Ask youself, 'For whom

is this?" The answer will be, 'for me.' And you can ask "Who am I?'

and keep going.

 

One important principle in this is that ANYTHING that you notice is

objective to you, is known by you. Whoever it is that you are, it

must be closer to that which knows than whatever is known.

 

Keep looking within for your identity, and discard ANYTHING that is

objective to you. Whatever it is is objective to you. Who are you?

 

Not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, alakeshwar jayanarayan

<alakeshwar> wrote:

> Whewn replying to long posts, will members please take care to edit

their replies. Thank you.

> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>

> --- christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...>

> wrote:

>

> > Sorry, but I am doing atma vichara all day (with a

> > few interruptions

> > when I get thrown out of awareness), it just doesn't

> > stop me from also

> > doing other things.

> >

> Dear Chris,

> I am glad to know there are people for whom atma

> vichara is a round the clock activity. I haven't had

> such luck. I don't seem to have really got the hang of

> it yet. Can you please elucidate for all of us on this

> forum how you do it. Don't forget, I am an absolute

> beginner! let us say you were to meet with an old

> friend who has absolutely no knowledge of anything

> religious or spiritual and he suddenly shows an

> interest in doing atmavichara because you manage to

> convince him that there is no activity more important

> for one's well being in the world. Then what would you

> suggest that he or she do to get started.

>

> love and light,

> alakeshwar

> >

> >

> >

> > On May 5, 2005, at 08:37, Joy Hicklin-Bailey wrote:

> >

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Thank you Chris

> > >

> > > When I read you first email I had a fantasy you

> > did Atma Vichara all

> > > day and nothing else. This is very helpful.

[Guest guest]

> Whewn replying to long posts, will members please take care to edit

> their replies. Thank you.

 

 

Dear Alakeshwar,

 

I want to make it clear that I am just a normal seeker with all faults

and weaknesses. I was just desperate enough to go for intensive sadhana

thats all. The reason why I am ready to talk about this very personal

matter of the spiritual path in public, is that I love what I am doing

and I see nothing secretive about it. To be able to do Vichara

intensively a few prerequisites (is that the right word?) have to be

met. First, you have to be tired of rebirth and have a distaste for

mundane life in general (that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy or have

fun), just a general feeling of being fed up with it all. Second and

this is in my opinion extremely important, you have to be really scared

of death, I mean terrified, so terrified that you are ready to prepare

yourself as best you can and it has to become more important than

anything else in your life. The idea of being tossed about by the

winds of my bad karmas, hang ups, complexes, fears scared the living

daylight out of me. You know how hard it is to concentrate on something

when in this body, imagine how much harder it is when you are without

that grounding. Imagine you are stuck after death in something like a

nightmare and there is no wife to wake you up when you are moaning in

terror. Well, if you are terrified enough to do something about it, you

go and look for a teacher. When you have found him you have to be

absolutely convinced that his teaching is the right sadhana for you

and, Maharshi in our case ,the right teacher. No more doubts, no more

looking left or right, checking out this or the other ashram. Its a

waste of precious time. Stick to Ramana Maharshi, sorry but I am biased

here, with all your heart. Read about his life, get hold of the

available literature written by him and about him. Read it and reflect

on it as much as you can. Develop Bhakti, extremely important. Open

your heart to him. Who can help but fall in love with one that led a

life of such utter purity and service. Get his CDs, look at his fotos.

By then you will have started with "Who am I". Whenever you encounter

difficulties or it doesn't come easy you can alternate with japa. Om

Namo Bhagavate Shri Arunachala Ramanaye or Om Namah Shivaya or Gayatri

or Krshna Mantra or whichever Mantra is close to your heart. In the

beginning you will do vichara at a certain time, early morning or after

work. Make sure that you are not disturbed. You can use whichever

posture is comfortable for you. You can even do it lying down. If you

fall asleep, no problem, carry on when you wake up again. Important is

to be comfortable in your body so it doesn't distract you. You can

close your eyes or keep them open. Whatever is easier. And so you start

being a witness to your thoughts and diving within right down to the

root from where the I thought springs. In that thoughtless state of

Being you remain as long as you can, whenever you can. Later when

vichara comes easy by the Grace Of the Guru who is pulling from within,

it becomes an automatic process. It goes on by itself all during the

day and later during the night also. Don't thing that this is a

terrible and difficult thing. Or worth, boring. No, its exciting and

its of great help, because even after a short time you can feel a

change in you. You get rid of all sorts of accumulated mental rubbish,

complexes, hang ups, judgments, anxieties, fears and panic. Its better

than the best psychanalysis. Because it really clears out your

subconscious. You could compare it to learning a new language. In the

beginning its really difficult, you struggle for every word, then for

every sentence and you fall back into your own language often. But as

you get better, words come easy and only rarely do you fall back into

your own language. Of course, there are days when your tongue turns

easier than on others, but you now have the confidence that you will

master it. And when you are thoroughly grounded in the new language you

even begin to dream in it. Its the same with Vichara. One just has to

do it. Later it does you.

 

This is already a long post. Moderator please bear with me.

 

Om Arunchala Shiva

Chris

[Guest guest]

Dear Richard,

 

In my answer to Alakeshwar I mainly focussed on his question why

someone would want to do Atma Vichara and not on the exact process of

it.

 

The process has been explained clearly by Maharhshi and his senior

devotees. I would therefore first and foremost recommend to start with

reading "Who am I". I would also recommend to have a look at the

library that Gabriele and Viorica have compiled with curtesy of

Ramanashramam. I am not criticizing your explanation, but for a

beginner I strongly suggest to stick to Maharshi's own words and the

timetested commentaries.

 

Peace

Chris

 

On May 7, 2005, at 15:23, Richard Clarke wrote:

 

> Dear Alakeshwar,

>

> I might suggest that first start by noticing that you exist. Look

> deeply at this. See that this is something that you know even deeper

> than ANY mental knowledge.

>

> Then ask, 'where does these sense of I come from?" and look within to

> see.

>

> You may notice something. When you do, let your self notice that,

> whatever it is, that it is noticed by someone. Ask youself, 'For whom

> is this?" The answer will be, 'for me.' And you can ask "Who am I?'

> and keep going.

>

> One important principle in this is that ANYTHING that you notice is

> objective to you, is known by you. Whoever it is that you are, it

> must be closer to that which knows than whatever is known.

>

> Keep looking within for your identity, and discard ANYTHING that is

> objective to you. Whatever it is is objective to you. Who are you?

>

> Not two,

> Richard

>

> RamanaMaharshi, alakeshwar jayanarayan

> <alakeshwar> wrote:

>> Whewn replying to long posts, will members please take care to edit

> their replies. Thank you.

>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>>

>> --- christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...>

>> wrote:

>>

>>> Sorry, but I am doing atma vichara all day (with a

>>> few interruptions

>>> when I get thrown out of awareness), it just doesn't

>>> stop me from also

>>> doing other things.

>>>

>> Dear Chris,

>> I am glad to know there are people for whom atma

>> vichara is a round the clock activity. I haven't had

>> such luck. I don't seem to have really got the hang of

>> it yet. Can you please elucidate for all of us on this

>> forum how you do it. Don't forget, I am an absolute

>> beginner! let us say you were to meet with an old

>> friend who has absolutely no knowledge of anything

>> religious or spiritual and he suddenly shows an

>> interest in doing atmavichara because you manage to

>> convince him that there is no activity more important

>> for one's well being in the world. Then what would you

>> suggest that he or she do to get started.

>>

>> love and light,

>> alakeshwar

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> On May 5, 2005, at 08:37, Joy Hicklin-Bailey wrote:

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Thank you Chris

>>>>

>>>> When I read you first email I had a fantasy you

>>> did Atma Vichara all

>>>> day and nothing else. This is very helpful.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Post message: RamanaMaharshi

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>

>

Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored]

[Guest guest]

This post has been edited for its extreme length. When replying to a long post,

(hitting the 'reply' button), kindly edit (cut out)most of the preceding post.

When members of this list visit India (and other global regions), the net

connection can be painfully slow, and it can be frustrating to sit in an email

shop, waiting for a post to download, only to read what has already been posted

all over again.

If this guideline is followed, the thread can be easily read, and the new post

remains intact.

Thanks for your consideration.

MODERATOR

 

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

--- christiane cameron <christianecameron

wrote:

 

> Dear Richard,

>

> In my answer to Alakeshwar I mainly focussed on his

> question why

> someone would want to do Atma Vichara and not on the

> exact process of

> it.

>

> The process has been explained ......

>>>

> > Dear Chris and Richard,

Actually I read Ramana-books daily.I have "the

talks","Day by day with Ramana" by Mudaliar.I also

to "the mountain path.I've read books by

Sadhu Om, Osborne,Cohen,Brunton and have a collection

of over a dozen books on Ramana and By Ramana. I have

been practicing the vichara for over 5 years now.The

reason I said I wanted you to think of me as a

beginner is because I feel as lost and at sea as some

one who has just begun to learn. I find the

questioning method boring and ineffective because

before you frame your question, so many new thoughts

have surfaced. What I mean is, that it does not seem

to quieten my mind.Getting back to Chris's suggestion

of witnessing thoughts and diving in to abide in the

silence between thoughts seems like a good suggestion

but in my case the 'I' sense is always there.So is it

ok if I dive in and cling to the relative silence in

me as opposed to the pure silence which is a state I

am yet to come upon. Is it ok to cling to the sense of

I exist which too I think can be found between

thoughts. As you Richard said, I think everything we

see is objective and must be dismissed as not you. Is

the one who sees objective. I think whatever that

falls within one's sense of awareness must be

objective and therefore not you. So whatever you are,

must transcend your senses and so, cannot be an

expereience the mind can relate to. I am just

speculating, because this can be helpful too. As

advised by you Chris I think I should stop looking

left and right and just stick with Ramana. I have a

feeling chris you could be psychic because I have this

habit of shopping around for new gurus, however I have

not looked outside advaita. Another thing you said

about people moaning in their sleep and being woken

up by their wives. I have often wondered, what I would

do if my wife were not around to wake me up. You think

this is true of most people or were you being

specific.

love and light

alakeshwar

[Guest guest]

22nd December, 1937Talk § 430.

 

A Marathi gentleman asked: I have read much aboutSelf-Realisation; I do japa,

puja, etc.; nothing seems to satisfy me.Can Sri Bhagavan kindly guide me?M.:

What is that you seek to gain? Everyone seeks happiness. Happinessis one’s lot

in everyday sleep. Bring about that state of happinesseven in the waking state.

That is all.D.: I do not follow. How is it to be done?M.: Atma Vichara is the

way.D.: It seems too difficult to adopt, being so intangible. What shall Ido if

I feel unfit for this method of enquiry?M.: Guidance is there. It is for

individuals to avail themselves of it.(Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri

Ramanasramam; sixth edition, 1978)

-

alakeshwar jayanarayan

RamanaMaharshi

Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:10 AM

Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: to Joy

This post has been edited for its extreme length. When replying to a long post,

(hitting the 'reply' button), kindly edit (cut out)most of the preceding

post.When members of this list visit India (and other global regions), the net

connection can be painfully slow, and it can be frustrating to sit in an email

shop, waiting for a post to download, only to read what has already been posted

all over again.If this guideline is followed, the thread can be easily read,

and the new post remains intact.Thanks for your consideration.MODERATOR~ ~

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~--- christiane cameron

<christianecameron (AT) mac (DOT) com>wrote:> Dear Richard,> > In my answer to Alakeshwar I

mainly focussed on his> question why > someone would want to do Atma Vichara and

not on the> exact process of > it.> > The process has been explained ......>>>>

> Dear Chris and Richard, Actually I read Ramana-books daily.I have

"thetalks","Day by day with Ramana" by Mudaliar.I also to "the

mountain path.I've read books bySadhu Om, Osborne,Cohen,Brunton and have a

collectionof over a dozen books on Ramana and By Ramana. I havebeen practicing

the vichara for over 5 years now.Thereason I said I wanted you to think of me

as abeginner is because I feel as lost and at sea as someone who has just begun

to learn. I find thequestioning method boring and ineffective becausebefore you

frame your question, ......I have thishabit of shopping around for new gurus,

however I havenot looked outside advaita. Another thing you saidabout people

moaning in their sleep and being wokenup by their wives. I have often wondered,

what I woulddo if my wife were not around to wake me up. You thinkthis is true

of most people or were you beingspecific? love and light alakeshwar

[Guest guest]

Dear alakeshwar

 

You asked, "Is the one who sees objective?"

 

y teacher, Nome, says, "Make the focus of your inquiry non-

objective." Here, he points to Being-Consciousness which is out of

the subject-object duality.

 

Sages have called this one "The unknown knower of all that is known."

 

And while the mind cannot relate to this, this is something that can

be known - not mental conceptual knowldge, but at the same deep level

that you know that you exist.

 

I have been practicing inquiry for about 15 years. Like you, the

first years, I felt like I struggled with it. What took it deeper for

me was a couple of things. One was taking time to carefully

discriminate 'what is constant from what is changing.'

 

The second element was learning that another form of the inquiry

is, "who knows this?'

 

So the inquiry would start with noticing that I exist. I start with

what is most real. I would ask, "Who am I?" then, as example, "Am I

this body?" Then after taking this as deeply as I could, I would

ask "Who knows this body?" then after another while, "Who am I?"

 

I found that "Who knows this ..." and "Who am I?" would 'converge' on

this sense of consciouss-being that is always there, that never

changes, that is without limits, etc.

 

I spent several years where much of the focus of inquiry was, "Am I

this (gross physical) body?" After sometime, the answer started to

become a resounding, "No. How could I be a body."

 

Ramana says that discrimination is not the inquiry, but that it is an

aid to inquiry. For me this aid has been important. I found that I

could not do it quickly, I have had to dwell on it. The assumption of

identity with the body is a major one, so for me it is taking some

time to start to unravel this and to start to see it as a false

assumption. The time has been worth it, though.

 

For me the inquity, "Who am I?" is made much deeper by the conviction

leading towards certainty that "I am not this. (So just who am I

anyway?)"

 

I hope some of this is useful to you in practice.

 

Not two,

Richard

 

> > > Dear Chris and Richard,

> Actually I read Ramana-books daily.I have "the

> talks","Day by day with Ramana" by Mudaliar.I also

> to "the mountain path.I've read books by

> Sadhu Om, Osborne,Cohen,Brunton and have a collection

> of over a dozen books on Ramana and By Ramana. I have

> been practicing the vichara for over 5 years now.The

> reason I said I wanted you to think of me as a

> beginner is because I feel as lost and at sea as some

> one who has just begun to learn. I find the

> questioning method boring and ineffective because

> before you frame your question, so many new thoughts

> have surfaced. What I mean is, that it does not seem

> to quieten my mind.Getting back to Chris's suggestion

> of witnessing thoughts and diving in to abide in the

> silence between thoughts seems like a good suggestion

> but in my case the 'I' sense is always there.So is it

> ok if I dive in and cling to the relative silence in

> me as opposed to the pure silence which is a state I

> am yet to come upon. Is it ok to cling to the sense of

> I exist which too I think can be found between

> thoughts. As you Richard said, I think everything we

> see is objective and must be dismissed as not you. Is

> the one who sees objective. I think whatever that

> falls within one's sense of awareness must be

> objective and therefore not you. So whatever you are,

> must transcend your senses and so, cannot be an

> expereience the mind can relate to.

 

>snip

 

love and light

> alakeshwar