On what authority...?

May 8, 2005

Om Namo Bhagavathe Sri Ramanaaya...

Actually, Peter,

Re:

“you have to see it in your own form”,

Bhagavan is actually saying “in your own reality”.

The complete verse runs:

......eendRataam

eppeyarid d’evuruvi leettinumaar peeruruvi

lapporuLaik kaan>vazhiya t’aayinumam — meypporuLi

nun>maiyitRa nunmaiyinai yoorNt’odungki yondRutalee

yun>maiyiR kaan>a lun>arNt’iduka — vin>mai.....

If we break it into words, we see:

eendRataam (the bit connecting from the previous verse) ~ it is acceptable, or "OK"...

ep peyar iddu ~ whatever name is given; ev uruvil eettinum in whatever form he is praised

aar peer uruvil ~ who in name and form

ap poruLai (object) ~ that reality; kaan> vazhi atu ~ is a way to perceive it

(we could add in the ‘acceptable’ from the previous verse here

aayinum ~ nevertheless; am mey poruLin ~ that True Reality’s...

un>maiyil tan un>maiyinai ~ Truth in one’s own Reality (to realise)

oorNtu ~ having investigated

odungki ~ and having subsided into it

ondRutalee ~ having indeed become One

un>maiyil kaan>al ~ is the True Seeing

un>arNtu iduka ~ feel this matter deeply

[the final phrase, vin>mai (like the Blue in the Sky) belongs to the verse 9].

If all these elements are included, the translation is accurate. “oorNtu” was

merely translated as ‘having investigated’ here, as the ‘becoming One’ bit

occurs also at the end of the line. So it is included.

A scholarly translation would posit all the possibilities, allowing the student

to understand it for himself.

Hope this helps

anbudan

John

Siva—Siva

-

John

RamanaMaharshi

Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:26 PM

[RamanaMaharshi] Re: On what authority...?

Om Namo Bhagavathe Sri Ramanaaya...Dear Peter...Re:>This reminded me of

reflecting some time ago on one of the verses from “Forty Versus on Reality”,

S. Cohen’s rendering: > 8. In whatever name and form the nameless and

formless is worshipped,> therein lies the path of its realisation.

Realising one’s own truth as the truth> of that reality, and merging into

it, is true realisation. >I am not sure how faithful to the original Tamil

Cohen’s rendering of this verse might be, the important thing at the time was

that >it evoked the realisation that within each person’s ‘spiritual’

understanding lies the path to their own realisationCohen’s translation is OK.

It may be helpful to know that the two sentences are joined by the word

“aayinum”, which here serves the purpose of a conjunction, meaning “however”;

The point is that it's OK to see reality in any name or form; however, you have

to see it in your own form.

In the second sentence, the word used by Bhagavan for “merging” is “oorNtu”,

literally “having become one” — we note that the verb “oor” also carries the

sense of “becoming one through investigation”, and that this is the true

‘seeing’ (un>maiyil kaanal); the verse ends with “un>arNtu iduka” which acts as

an imperative that you should “really feel/experience this” (presumably meaning

the knowledge should not be theoretical).

>but who can claim to be the final authority on what his Teachings and Presence

should mean for another person, or how his >teaching should be understood and

put into practice by another?

Indeed. It is wise not to take the attitude of knowing what Bhagavan meant.

That’s why it’s always best to stick to the original words and practise the

upadesa first.

anbudan

John

Siva—Siva

May 8, 2005

font-family:Arial">Dear John,

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Many thanks for your explanation of Tamil – English.

I find it helpful to reflect on the different possibilities of the translation

with regards The Forty Verses – it seems to help understanding of the

meaning to constellate ‘within’. What you and Rob Butler have

done in “The Deep Forty” group is valuable in that regard.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Words are tricky things – as Ramana says, they are

somewhat like the resistance in a copper wire through which electricity flows

and thus produce heat and/or light. The electricity itself being

synonymous with the transmission of wisdom through/in Silence.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">I wondered whether my own use of words was misleading.

I think all I really meant to say was… regardless of the accuracy of

Cohen’s translation of verse 8, there was something in the spirit of it

that touched me deeply and helped me realise that within each person’s

‘spiritual’ understanding lies the path to their own realisation

and hence it is not for me or anyone else to interfere with another’s viewpoint

and practice, or prescribe what should or should not be done. This echoed

with Lucy Cornelsson’s observation of Ramana:

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">“…he never discouraged the visitor in his own

spiritual endeavour, whatever the outer form may be. Because he knew that

the sincere seeker after Truth is always guided from within…”

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">So we have to guard against policing ‘the form’

of other people’s understanding of Ramana, and how they choose to put it that

understanding into practice.

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Best wishes

font-family:Arial">

font-family:Arial">Peter

font-family:Arial">

May 8, 2005

Dear Peter,

One point about the SS Cohen version: my understanding is that he did

not translate, rather he took 8 different english versions and tried

to somehow 'consolidate' them. I believe he did also ask for some

translation help, when this seemed not clear.

So his version of 40 verses is not a translation, rather a rewrite of

exisiting english versions.

Not two,

Richard

RamanaMaharshi, "Peter M." <not_2@b...> wrote:

> Dear John,

>

> Many thanks for your explanation of Tamil - English. I find it

helpful to

> reflect on the different possibilities of the translation with

regards The

> Forty Verses - it seems to help understanding of the meaning to

constellate

> 'within'. What you and Rob Butler have done in "The Deep Forty"

group is

> valuable in that regard.

>

> Words are tricky things - as Ramana says, they are somewhat like the

> resistance in a copper wire through which electricity flows and

thus produce

> heat and/or light. The electricity itself being synonymous with the

> transmission of wisdom through/in Silence.

>

> I wondered whether my own use of words was misleading. I think all

I really

> meant to say was. regardless of the accuracy of Cohen's translation

of verse

> 8, there was something in the spirit of it that touched me deeply

and helped

> me realise that within each person's 'spiritual' understanding lies

the path

> to their own realisation and hence it is not for me or anyone else

to

> interfere with another's viewpoint and practice, or prescribe what

should or

> should not be done. This echoed with Lucy Cornelsson's observation

of

> Ramana:

>

> ".he never discouraged the visitor in his own spiritual endeavour,

whatever

> the outer form may be. Because he knew that the sincere seeker

after Truth

> is always guided from within."

>

> So we have to guard against policing 'the form' of other people's

> understanding of Ramana, and how they choose to put it that

understanding

> into practice.

>

> Best wishes

>

> Peter

May 8, 2005

Thanks Richard - it is pretty much as you say (Cohen says six versions were

used), which I why used the word "rendering" in my original post. It was a

mistake for me to say "translation" in the next post. Whatever way he did

it, I rather like it. His complete text and how he went about it can be

found in Alan Jacobs book "Ramana, Shankara and the Forty Verses"

Best,

Peter

RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi]

On Behalf Of Richard Clarke

08 May 2005 14:04

RamanaMaharshi

[RamanaMaharshi] Re: On what authority...?

Dear Peter,

One point about the SS Cohen version: my understanding is that he did

not translate, rather he took 8 different english versions and tried

to somehow 'consolidate' them. I believe he did also ask for some

translation help, when this seemed not clear.

So his version of 40 verses is not a translation, rather a rewrite of

exisiting english versions.

Not two,

Richard

May 8, 2005

Peter,

I have a copy of SS Cohen, "Ramana Maharshi Fourty Verses," pub

Watkins London 1978. Has his rendition of the verses, and his

commentary. This is the version I usually read.

Aren't their other versions, that have the supplement as well, along

with the story of how these came to be?

I know this is there in Osborn's "Collected Works..." I seem to

recall other versions, but can't find any in my library.

Like with "Who am I?", are there any versions considered

more 'authoritive?"

Not two,

Richard

RamanaMaharshi, "Peter M." <not_2@b...> wrote:

>

> Thanks Richard - it is pretty much as you say (Cohen says six

versions were

> used), which I why used the word "rendering" in my original post.

It was a

> mistake for me to say "translation" in the next post. Whatever way

he did

> it, I rather like it. His complete text and how he went about it

can be

> found in Alan Jacobs book "Ramana, Shankara and the Forty Verses"

>

> Best,

>

> Peter

>

> RamanaMaharshi

[RamanaMaharshi]

> On Behalf Of Richard Clarke

> 08 May 2005 14:04

> RamanaMaharshi

> [RamanaMaharshi] Re: On what authority...?

>

> Dear Peter,

>

> One point about the SS Cohen version: my understanding is that he

did

> not translate, rather he took 8 different english versions and

tried

> to somehow 'consolidate' them. I believe he did also ask for some

> translation help, when this seemed not clear.

>

> So his version of 40 verses is not a translation, rather a rewrite

of

> exisiting english versions.

>

> Not two,

> Richard

May 9, 2005

Hello Richard,

Presumbly the original verses written in Tamil by Sri Ramana at the request

of Sri Muruganar must be considered the most authoritative. There seem to

be a number of translations and English versions.

Importantly, Lakshmana Sarma (Who) wrote a Sanskrit version, also translated

into English, "Revelation". In the preface to Lakshmana's book "Maha Yoga"

there is an interesting account of how he came to write "Revelation".

Ramana asked him one day if he had read Forty Verses, to which Lakshmana

said "No", because he could not understand the classical Tamil, but added he

would like to study it if Ramana would teach him the meaning. "Thus began

the disciple's close association with his Master. Sri Bhagavan started to

explain to him slowly and in detail the meaning of each verse, and Lakshmana

Sarma, being a lover of Sanskrit, started to compose Sanskrit verses

embodying the meaning of each Tamil verse as it was explained to him. After

composing each verse in Sanskrit, Lakshmana submitted it to Sri Bhagavan for

correction and approval, and if Sri Bhagavan's approval was not forthcoming

he would recompose the verse as often as was necessary until His approval

was obtained....."

How wonderful for Lakshmana to have had this opportunity!!

There are other versions by Major Chadwick, Grant Duff, Ganapati Muni

(Sat-Darshanam), SS Cohen etc etc - all giving a slightly different

rendering of the verses. On The_Deep_Forty List, John and Rob Butler have

offered translations from the Classical Tamil which are very valuable to

reflect upon. I found myself drawn to working one by one through all the

Forty Verses, looking at all the versions I could find as I reflected on

each verse in turn, going back to the Tamil with the help of John's work on

the translation. (I can't read Tamil!) I always like to come back to

Lakshmana Sarma's version, at some stage, which is in long verse (Ramana

encouraged this), for the reason that Ramana gave much of his time to

helping him understand and explicate the meaning of each verse. There seem

to be nuances in Lakshmana's version which are not necessarily there in

others. After I have reflected on all of these I then try to formulate each

verse in my own words.

Perhaps one might say, the most authoritative version is the formless,

direct understanding that arises in 'the heart' as a result of reflecting on

the Master's teachings. Each of us must find this 'version' for ourselves,

however humble it may be, and appreciating that words can never do it

justice.

Best wishes,

Peter

RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi]

On Behalf Of Richard Clarke

09 May 2005 00:27

RamanaMaharshi

[RamanaMaharshi] Re: On what authority...?

Peter,

I have a copy of SS Cohen, "Ramana Maharshi Fourty Verses," pub

Watkins London 1978. Has his rendition of the verses, and his

commentary. This is the version I usually read.

Aren't their other versions, that have the supplement as well, along

with the story of how these came to be?

I know this is there in Osborn's "Collected Works..." I seem to

recall other versions, but can't find any in my library.

Like with "Who am I?", are there any versions considered

more 'authoritive?"

Not two,

Richard

May 9, 2005

Om Namo Bhagavathe Sri Ramanaaya...

Dear Peter, Richard

>>Aren't their other versions, that have the supplement as well, along >>with

the story of how these came to be?

The most authoritative version is to be found in ‘The Power of the Presence’ by

David Godman; the chapter in the series contains a wealth of information on

Lakshmana’s work with the Forty Verses and the Supplement.

>>Perhaps one might say, the most authoritative version is the formless,>>direct

understanding that arises in 'the heart' as a result of reflecting >>on>>the

Master's teachings. Each of us must find this 'version' for

>>ourselves,>>however humble it may be, and appreciating that words can never

do it>>justice.

Yes Peter, the one which speaks directly (it can certainly be individual) is the

best one to have. The only criterion is to ‘test’ one’s translation by applying

it to Sri Bhagavan’s words, to see if it holds good. It doesn’t matter too much

if Tamil is not understood; if there is a sticking point, help is available from

the one’s who do know the language. The Deep Forty is an opportunity for

students to test their translation/rendering; even if the words are not

translated, word molecules may drift into mind. This is the way we all learned

our own mother tongues, as we were not born with dictionaries and grammars to

hand. Hearing, hearing, hearing, and continually repeating the very words

yields rich fruit.

anbudan

john

Siva—Siva

-

Peter M.

RamanaMaharshi

Monday, May 09, 2005 12:05 PM

RE: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: On what authority...?

Hello Richard,Presumbly the original verses written in Tamil by Sri Ramana at

the requestof Sri Muruganar must be considered the most authoritative. There

seem tobe a number of translations and English versions. Importantly,

Lakshmana Sarma (Who) wrote a Sanskrit version, also translatedinto English,

"Revelation". In the preface to Lakshmana's book "Maha Yoga"there is an

interesting account of how he came to write "Revelation".Ramana asked him one

day if he had read Forty Verses, to which Lakshmanasaid "No", because he could

not understand the classical Tamil, but added hewould like to study it if

Ramana would teach him the meaning. "Thus beganthe disciple's close

association with his Master. Sri Bhagavan started toexplain to him slowly and

in detail the meaning of each verse, and LakshmanaSarma, being a lover of

Sanskrit, started to compose Sanskrit versesembodying the meaning of each Tamil

verse as it was explained to him. Aftercomposing each verse in Sanskrit,

Lakshmana submitted it to Sri Bhagavan forcorrection and approval, and if Sri

Bhagavan's approval was not forthcominghe would recompose the verse as often as

was necessary until His approvalwas obtained....." How wonderful for Lakshmana

to have had this opportunity!!There are other versions by Major Chadwick, Grant

Duff, Ganapati Muni(Sat-Darshanam), SS Cohen etc etc - all giving a slightly

differentrendering of the verses. On The_Deep_Forty List, John and Rob Butler

haveoffered translations from the Classical Tamil which are very valuable

toreflect upon. I found myself drawn to working one by one through all

theForty Verses, looking at all the versions I could find as I reflected oneach

verse in turn, going back to the Tamil with the help of John's work onthe

translation. (I can't read Tamil!) I always like to come back toLakshmana

Sarma's version, at some stage, which is in long verse (Ramanaencouraged this),

for the reason that Ramana gave much of his time tohelping him understand and

explicate the meaning of each verse. There seemto be nuances in Lakshmana's

version which are not necessarily there inothers. After I have reflected on

all of these I then try to formulate eachverse in my own words.Perhaps one

might say, the most authoritative version is the formless,direct understanding

that arises in 'the heart' as a result of reflecting onthe Master's teachings.

Each of us must find this 'version' for ourselves,however humble it may be, and

appreciating that words can never do itjustice.Best wishes,Peter-----Original

Message-----RamanaMaharshi

[RamanaMaharshi]On Behalf Of Richard Clarke09 May

2005 00:27RamanaMaharshiSubject: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: On

what authority...?Peter,I have a copy of SS Cohen, "Ramana Maharshi Fourty

Verses," pub Watkins London 1978. Has his rendition of the verses, and his

commentary. This is the version I usually read.Aren't their other versions,

that have the supplement as well, along with the story of how these came to

be?I know this is there in Osborn's "Collected Works..." I seem to recall other

versions, but can't find any in my library. Like with "Who am I?", are there any

versions considered more 'authoritive?"Not two,Richard

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May 10, 2005

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Dear John,

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Are you saying the most authoritative

version of “The Forty Verses” is in “The Power of the Presence”?

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Peter

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

RamanaMaharshi

[RamanaMaharshi]