Fwd: Fate, Free Will and Bhagavad Sankalpam - Roles of them on a jiiva.

[Guest guest]

tiruvengadam, "Sudarshan M.K." <sampathkumar_2000>

wrote:

tiruvengadam, "Malolan Cadambi" <mcadambi> wrote:

> sri:

> Dear Bhaktas,

> On a jiiva, what "roles" do Fate, Free will and Bhagavad Sankalpam

mean? Does Bhagavad Sankalpam alone rule a jiiva or does the jiiva

have some free will? Does the jiiva have ability to think rationally

or does even thinking require bhagavad sankalpam? Does the power of

bhagavad sankalpam superseed everything else?

 

> My apologies if the questions sound irreverent.

Adiyen Ramanuja Daasan,

> Malolan Cadambi

********************

 

 

Dear Sri.Malolan,

 

It is a very important, not irreverent, question that you ask. In

fact, everyone of us should seek answers to such questions in our own

lives. It is part of 'atma-vIchAram' or what is known in Vedantic

parlance as inquiry into Self.

 

Fate, Free Will and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' (The Supreme Will of God)

--- what "roles" do they play in an individual's (jIvA) life?

 

Adiyane too has asked himself such questions at many times in life.

Apart from finding some useful clues in the Vedantic treatises of

SriVaishnava 'achAryA-s' (FYI, e.g. in "yatindra-mata-deepikA"), in

adiyane's view one can get the best possible and most illuminating

answers more easily from a deep study of the character of Kunti-devi

in the Mahabharata.

 

Kunti's whole life is a magnificent canvass on which Fate, Free-will

and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' all freely painted their own motifs. The

final result was that Kunti evolved as a person into an exceptionally

noble soul, a supreme 'gnyAni' in her own right and into an

especially beloved one of God, comparable only to the 'gopeekA-s' of

Brindavan for whom Krishna had a very special place in His heart.

 

At a very early age Fate dealt Kunti a rather cruel hand. Factors and

forces beyond her control or comprehension turned her into a young,

un-wed mother (of Karna). Kunti secretly and silently bore that

supreme shame of womanhood to almost the very end of her life.

 

Kunti married early but equally soon she also became an unfortuante

widow. Thereafter, although she was a Queen in the royal house she

actually lived anything but a Queen's life. Like any widow in those

times she was nothing but what they call, in Tamil, a woe-begone

"vAzhAvatti". She and her 5 children were maltreated by the Kauravas.

She bore insults, barbs, oppression and humiliation at every stage of

her early motherhood. Even within her own home she lived in constant

fear of her and her children's lives. The Kauravas tried to poison

her sons; their house was set afire, there were spies and enemies all

around them...

 

When her children, the Pandavas, grew up Kunti watched them being

slowly dispossessed of all that was their royal right. She lived to

see her daughter-in-law's modesty outraged under full public gaze

amidst family members and venerable elders. She witnessed them

then being expelled from their homes and banished into exile from

Hastinapur. In old age and disease, Kunti too shared the rigours and

discomfort of life in exile with her hapless sons for 12 long

and painful years.

 

In the evening of her life, Kunti next witnessed a fratricidal war of

unprecedented savagery that was fought by her own kith and kin. Right

before her eyes, hundreds of young men like Abhimanyu... all of whom

she had probably even seen in their cradles or perhaps being suckled

by their mothers... she watched them all, one by one, die the most

horrific of deaths on the bloody battlefields of Kurukshetra.

 

Grief, tribulation and unmitigated tragedy were indeed thus the

first, maiden and surnames of Kunti.

 

As we further read the story of the Mahabharatha and closely analyse

the character of Kunti, we are sometimes forced to ask the question:

Did not Kunti possess the power to avert the great tragedy that

befell the Kauravas and Pandavas? If only she had exercised her "free

will" at a crucial juncture in the troubled history of Hastinapur,

could she not have brought the two warring families together? If only

she had come out openly in public, coming clean about her secret

shame with the rest of the world, might she not have possibly saved

the thousands of young lives that were so cruelly laid down at

Kurukshetra? If only Kunti had "chosen" (by free will) to acknowledge

to the whole world that Karna was indeed her own son... if she had

revealed that dark secret of her life... might she not have changed

the whole story of the Mahabharata?

 

But we know that Kunti did no such thing! And we know too that she

did no such thing even against her own "free-will"! Much as her

mother's heart wrenched and melted at the sight of Karna at every

moment she saw him while he lived, Kunti came forward to claim him as

her own son only on his death-bed! Why? Where was her "free-will"?

 

******** ********* ************

 

So we see in the Mahabharata how both Fate and Free-will indeed truly

conspired to bring about the extremely sad and distressing events in

Kunti's life. If for a moment we were to each put ourselves in her

place, we would realize that we would be simply unable to bear, even

for a moment, the pain of all those burdens she bore so stoically all

her life.

 

And yet the story of the Mahabharatha tells us that one day in

Hastinapur, Kunti while entertaining Lord Krishna in her chambers,

told Him:

 

"O Krishna, in my long life I have had only two constant companions.

One has been Grief... grief of every conceivable kind. And the other

has been You. It is you two who have been by my side all my life.

Sometimes, O Krishna, I'm tempted to believe that You are always by

my side only because Grief also happens to be my inseparable

companion! But if that were truly so, my dear Krishna, if all it will

take to make You never leave my side is only Grief, then I shall

welcome grief a thousand times more painful to enter into my heart

and drown it! O Krishna, I pray to Thee! Give me a thousand more

great causes for distress in life, but please promise me You will

never leave me for a moment!".

 

Those were Kunti's poignant words! Words that showed what a great and

truly noble soul she was! Words that show us too how, in the ultimate

analysis, both Fate and Free-will must and will finally submit to

"bhagavath-sankalpam"!

 

I hope, Sri.Malolan, I have succeeded in conveying the essential

message of the Mahabharatha, and of Kunti's life-story in it, to you

and trust that it will also throw light on the question of "fate,

free-will and bhagavath-sankalpam" you have raised.

 

"krishnAya vAsudevAya devaki nandAnAya cha

nandagOpa kumArAya gOvindAya namO namaha

nama: pankaja-nAbhAya, nama: pankaja-mAlinay

nama: panakaja-nEtrAya, namastE pankajAnghrayE!"

(Kunti-stuti)

 

Regards,

dAsan,

Sudarshan

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

Sri Sudarshan has provided a very enlightening

information/discussion on "the roles of Fate, Free

Will, and Bhagavadsankalpam." Let me express my

ignorance by adding few comments.

 

Without Bhagavath Sanklpam, No action or result can

take place. The actions are two fold: (1) those

dictated by Fate (Karma) and (2) those by Free Will.

Bhagavth Sanklpam consists of three components, each

superceeding the other: (1) Fate (Past Karma),

(2)Bhavath kataksham toward prapanna as a result of

Saranagathi, and (3) Nirhethuka Krupa (Causeless

Mercy) of Sri Bhagavan.

 

First, the Fate (results of past Karma) is

preprogrammed into an automated system, and the

results are bound to appear unless Sri Bhagavan

interveins. Now, it is up to the Free Will of the

individual to seek God's help and perform Saranagathi.

If one seeks His help, He remove some of the unwanted

results and then He shows the path toward Saranagathi.

He interveins in the delivery of Fate (Karma) and

reprograms it so as to lead the prapanna toward

Mukthi. However, in some cases (at His will), He

showers His Nirhethuka Krupa (causeless mercy) and

gives Gnana (reveals Himself) to perform saranagathi

without the individual seeking His Help. He could

erase all his (athma's) karma or part of it. It is His

Will. He is Sri Hari(Stealer of sins), and He is Sri

Venkateswara (burner of sins or karmas). Ven means

Sin, Kata means to burn, Iswara means Controller.

Therefore, He can erase karma at His will. While #2

i.e. seeking His help may require previous samskara or

the comapnay of good devotees, #3 does not require

any.

 

In conclusion, (1) Any action/result is due to

Bhagavth Sankalpam, (2) Certain ctions may be

warranted by previous Karma, (3) we can act by Free

Will but beyond what is dectated by karma, (4) Results

are dictated by Fate (Karma), (5) but Bhagavan

overrules the preprogramed Fate if we seek His help,

and (6) Bhagavan over rules the Fate of some

individuals as a causeless mercy (Nirhethuka Krupa).

 

In the service of Lord Sri Venkateswara, I remain,

 

Sincerely

Narender Reddy

 

 

 

--- "Sudarshan M.K." <sampathkumar_2000

wrote:

> tiruvengadam, "Sudarshan M.K."

> <sampathkumar_2000>

> wrote:

> tiruvengadam, "Malolan Cadambi"

> <mcadambi> wrote:

> > sri:

> > Dear Bhaktas,

> > On a jiiva, what "roles" do Fate, Free will and

> Bhagavad Sankalpam

> mean? Does Bhagavad Sankalpam alone rule a jiiva or

> does the jiiva

> have some free will? Does the jiiva have ability to

> think rationally

> or does even thinking require bhagavad sankalpam?

> Does the power of

> bhagavad sankalpam superseed everything else?

>

> > My apologies if the questions sound irreverent.

> Adiyen Ramanuja Daasan,

> > Malolan Cadambi

> ********************

>

>

> Dear Sri.Malolan,

>

> It is a very important, not irreverent, question

> that you ask. In

> fact, everyone of us should seek answers to such

> questions in our own

> lives. It is part of 'atma-vIchAram' or what is

> known in Vedantic

> parlance as inquiry into Self.

>

> Fate, Free Will and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' (The

> Supreme Will of God)

> --- what "roles" do they play in an individual's

> (jIvA) life?

>

> Adiyane too has asked himself such questions at many

> times in life.

> Apart from finding some useful clues in the Vedantic

> treatises of

> SriVaishnava 'achAryA-s' (FYI, e.g. in

> "yatindra-mata-deepikA"), in

> adiyane's view one can get the best possible and

> most illuminating

> answers more easily from a deep study of the

> character of Kunti-devi

> in the Mahabharata.

>

> Kunti's whole life is a magnificent canvass on which

> Fate, Free-will

> and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' all freely painted their

> own motifs. The

> final result was that Kunti evolved as a person into

> an exceptionally

> noble soul, a supreme 'gnyAni' in her own right and

> into an

> especially beloved one of God, comparable only to

> the 'gopeekA-s' of

> Brindavan for whom Krishna had a very special place

> in His heart.

>

> At a very early age Fate dealt Kunti a rather cruel

> hand. Factors and

> forces beyond her control or comprehension turned

> her into a young,

> un-wed mother (of Karna). Kunti secretly and

> silently bore that

> supreme shame of womanhood to almost the very end of

> her life.

>

> Kunti married early but equally soon she also became

> an unfortuante

> widow. Thereafter, although she was a Queen in the

> royal house she

> actually lived anything but a Queen's life. Like any

> widow in those

> times she was nothing but what they call, in Tamil,

> a woe-begone

> "vAzhAvatti". She and her 5 children were maltreated

> by the Kauravas.

> She bore insults, barbs, oppression and humiliation

> at every stage of

> her early motherhood. Even within her own home she

> lived in constant

> fear of her and her children's lives. The Kauravas

> tried to poison

> her sons; their house was set afire, there were

> spies and enemies all

> around them...

>

> When her children, the Pandavas, grew up Kunti

> watched them being

> slowly dispossessed of all that was their royal

> right. She lived to

> see her daughter-in-law's modesty outraged under

> full public gaze

> amidst family members and venerable elders. She

> witnessed them

> then being expelled from their homes and banished

> into exile from

> Hastinapur. In old age and disease, Kunti too shared

> the rigours and

> discomfort of life in exile with her hapless sons

> for 12 long

> and painful years.

>

> In the evening of her life, Kunti next witnessed a

> fratricidal war of

> unprecedented savagery that was fought by her own

> kith and kin. Right

> before her eyes, hundreds of young men like

> Abhimanyu... all of whom

> she had probably even seen in their cradles or

> perhaps being suckled

> by their mothers... she watched them all, one by

> one, die the most

> horrific of deaths on the bloody battlefields of

> Kurukshetra.

>

> Grief, tribulation and unmitigated tragedy were

> indeed thus the

> first, maiden and surnames of Kunti.

>

> As we further read the story of the Mahabharatha and

> closely analyse

> the character of Kunti, we are sometimes forced to

> ask the question:

> Did not Kunti possess the power to avert the great

> tragedy that

> befell the Kauravas and Pandavas? If only she had

> exercised her "free

> will" at a crucial juncture in the troubled history

> of Hastinapur,

> could she not have brought the two warring families

> together? If only

> she had come out openly in public, coming clean

> about her secret

> shame with the rest of the world, might she not have

> possibly saved

> the thousands of young lives that were so cruelly

> laid down at

> Kurukshetra? If only Kunti had "chosen" (by free

> will) to acknowledge

> to the whole world that Karna was indeed her own

> son... if she had

> revealed that dark secret of her life... might she

> not have changed

> the whole story of the Mahabharata?

>

> But we know that Kunti did no such thing! And we

> know too that she

> did no such thing even against her own "free-will"!

> Much as her

> mother's heart wrenched and melted at the sight of

> Karna at every

> moment she saw him while he lived, Kunti came

> forward to claim him as

> her own son only on his death-bed! Why? Where was

> her "free-will"?

>

> ******** ********* ************

>

> So we see in the Mahabharata how both Fate and

> Free-will indeed truly

> conspired to bring about the extremely sad and

> distressing events in

> Kunti's life. If for a moment we were to each put

> ourselves in her

> place, we would realize that we would be simply

> unable to bear, even

> for a moment, the pain of all those burdens she bore

> so stoically all

> her life.

>

> And yet the story of the Mahabharatha tells us that

> one day in

> Hastinapur, Kunti while entertaining Lord Krishna in

> her chambers,

> told Him:

>

> "O Krishna, in my long life I have had only two

> constant companions.

> One has been Grief... grief of every conceivable

> kind. And the other

> has been You. It is you two who have been by my side

> all my life.

> Sometimes, O Krishna, I'm tempted to believe that

> You are always by

> my side only because Grief also happens to be my

> inseparable

> companion! But if that were truly so, my dear

> Krishna, if all it will

> take to make You never leave my side is only Grief,

> then I shall

> welcome grief a thousand times more painful to enter

> into my heart

> and drown it! O Krishna, I pray to Thee! Give me a

> thousand more

> great causes for distress in life, but please

> promise

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Respected Sri Narender, Your reply is indeed very well enlightning and very

clear ly written . I have read Sri Sudarshan's great reply too. Ever since the

tragedy that struck this nation on Tuesday I have been trying hard to put this

into the perspective of Fate vs Free Will vs Bhagvat Sankalpam. ."Free will" is

the initiative of the individual to seek God's help or saranagathi - this is

what I understand from your email. That also means that the individual can

choose not to seek any of the above. Since God can only love, this act can

never be Bhagavat Sankalpam. Fate does not seem to apply given that so many

individuals faced the same situation. Free will that has been misused - this

seems to to me as the only way to put the horrible act into the perspective of

Fate vs Free Will vs Bhagvat Sankalpam. Kindly forgive my ignorance, and help

me with your thoughts on this.

Sree Raama Namaha:

-Sandhya

Narender Reddy <reddynp > wrote: Sri Sudarshan has provided a very

enlighteninginformation/discussion on "the roles of Fate, FreeWill, and

Bhagavadsankalpam." Let me express myignorance by adding few comments.Without

Bhagavath Sanklpam, No action or result cantake place. The actions are two

fold: (1) thosedictated by Fate (Karma) and (2) those by Free Will. Bhagavth

Sanklpam consists of three components, eachsuperceeding the other: (1) Fate

(Past Karma),(2)Bhavath kataksham toward prapanna as a result ofSaranagathi,

and (3) Nirhethuka Krupa (CauselessMercy) of Sri Bhagavan. First, the Fate

(results of past Karma) ispreprogrammed into an automated system, and

theresults are bound to appear unless Sri Bhagavaninterveins. Now, it is up to

the Free Will of theindividual to seek God's help and perform Saranagathi.If

one seeks His help, He remove some of the unwantedresults and then He shows the

path toward Saranagathi.He interveins in the delivery of Fate (Karma)

andreprograms it so as to lead the prapanna towardMukthi. However, in some

cases (at His will), Heshowers His Nirhethuka Krupa (causeless mercy) andgives

Gnana (reveals Himself) to perform saranagathiwithout the individual seeking His

Help. He coulderase all his (athma's) karma or part of it. It is HisWill. He is

Sri Hari(Stealer of sins), and He is SriVenkateswara (burner of sins or

karmas). Ven meansSin, Kata means to burn, Iswara means Controller.Therefore,

He can erase karma at His will. While #2i.e. seeking His help may require

previous samskara orthe comapnay of good devotees, #3 does not requireany.In

conclusion, (1) Any action/result is due toBhagavth Sankalpam, (2) Certain

ctions may bewarranted by previous Karma, (3) we can act by FreeWill but beyond

what is dectated by karma, (4) Resultsare dictated by Fate (Karma), (5) but

Bhagavanoverrules the preprogramed Fate if we seek His help,and (6) Bhagavan

over rules the Fate of someindividuals as a causeless mercy (Nirhethuka

Krupa).In the service of Lord Sri Venkateswara, I remain,SincerelyNarender

Reddy --- "Sudarshan M.K." <sampathkumar_2000 >wrote:> --- In

tiruvengadam, "Sudarshan M.K."> <sampathkumar_2000> > wrote:> --- In

tiruvengadam, "Malolan Cadambi"> <mcadambi> wrote:> > sri:> > Dear

Bhaktas,> > On a jiiva, what "roles" do Fate, Free will and> Bhagavad Sankalpam

> mean? Does Bhagavad Sankalpam alone rule a jiiva or> does the jiiva > have

some free will? Does the jiiva have ability to> think rationally > or does even

thinking require bhagavad sankalpam?> Does the power of > bhagavad sankalpam

superseed everything else?> > > My apologies if the questions sound

irreverent.> Adiyen Ramanuja Daasan,> > Malolan Cadambi>

********************> > > Dear Sri.Malolan,> > It is a very important, not

irreverent, question> that you ask. In > fact, everyone of us should seek

answers to such> questions in our own > lives. It is part of 'atma-vIchAram' or

what is> known in Vedantic > parlance as inquiry into Self.> > Fate, Free Will

and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' (The> Supreme Will of God) > --- what "roles" do they

play in an individual's> (jIvA) life?> > Adiyane too has asked himself such

questions at many> times in life. > Apart from finding some useful clues in the

Vedantic> treatises of > SriVaishnava 'achAryA-s' (FYI, e.g. in>

"yatindra-mata-deepikA"), in > adiyane's view one can get the best possible

and> most illuminating > answers more easily from a deep study of the>

character of Kunti-devi > in the Mahabharata.> > Kunti's whole life is a

magnificent canvass on which> Fate, Free-will > and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' all

freely painted their> own motifs. The > final result was that Kunti evolved as

a person into> an exceptionally > noble soul, a supreme 'gnyAni' in her own

right and> into an> especially beloved one of God, comparable only to> the

'gopeekA-s' of > Brindavan for whom Krishna had a very special place> in His

heart. > > At a very early age Fate dealt Kunti a rather cruel> hand. Factors

and > forces beyond her control or comprehension turned> her into a young, >

un-wed mother (of Karna). Kunti secretly and> silently bore that > supreme

shame of womanhood to almost the very end of> her life.> > Kunti married early

but equally soon she also became> an unfortuante > widow. Thereafter, although

she was a Queen in the> royal house she > actually lived anything but a Queen's

life. Like any> widow in those > times she was nothing but what they call, in

Tamil,> a woe-begone > "vAzhAvatti". She and her 5 children were maltreated> by

the Kauravas. > She bore insults, barbs, oppression and humiliation> at every

stage of > her early motherhood. Even within her own home she> lived in

constant > fear of her and her children's lives. The Kauravas> tried to poison>

her sons; their house was set afire, there were> spies and enemies all > around

them...> > When her children, the Pandavas, grew up Kunti> watched them being >

slowly dispossessed of all that was their royal> right. She lived to > see her

daughter-in-law's modesty outraged under> full public gaze > amidst family

members and venerable elders. She> witnessed them > then being expelled from

their homes and banished> into exile from > Hastinapur. In old age and disease,

Kunti too shared> the rigours and > discomfort of life in exile with her hapless

sons> for 12 long > and painful years.> > In the evening of her life, Kunti next

witnessed a> fratricidal war of > unprecedented savagery that was fought by her

own> kith and kin. Right > before her eyes, hundreds of young men like>

Abhimanyu... all of whom > she had probably even seen in their cradles or>

perhaps being suckled > by their mothers... she watched them all, one by> one,

die the most > horrific of deaths on the bloody battlefields of> Kurukshetra.>

> Grief, tribulation and unmitigated tragedy were> indeed thus the> first,

maiden and surnames of Kunti.> > As we further read the story of the

Mahabharatha and> closely analyse > the character of Kunti, we are sometimes

forced to> ask the question: > Did not Kunti possess the power to avert the

great> tragedy that> befell the Kauravas and Pandavas? If only she had>

exercised her "free > will" at a crucial juncture in the troubled history> of

Hastinapur, > could she not have brought the two warring families> together? If

only > she had come out openly in public, coming clean> about her secret> shame

with the rest of the world, might she not have> possibly saved > the thousands

of young lives that were so cruelly> laid down at > Kurukshetra? If only Kunti

had "chosen" (by free> will) to acknowledge > to the whole world that Karna was

indeed her own> son... if she had > revealed that dark secret of her life...

might she> not have changed > the whole story of the Mahabharata?> > But we

know that Kunti did no such thing! And we> know too that she> did no such thing

even against her own "free-will"!> Much as her > mother's heart wrenched and

melted at the sight of> Karna at every > moment she saw him while he lived,

Kunti came> forward to claim him as > her own son only on his death-bed! Why?

Where was> her "free-will"?> > ******** ********* ************> > So

we see in the Mahabharata how both Fate and> Free-will indeed truly > conspired

to bring about the extremely sad and> distressing events in > Kunti's life. If

for a moment we were to each put> ourselves in her > place, we would realize

that we would be simply> unable to bear, even > for a moment, the pain of all

those burdens she bore> so stoically all > her life.> > And yet the story of

the Mahabharatha tells us that> one day in > Hastinapur, Kunti while

entertaining Lord Krishna in> her chambers, > told Him:> > "O Krishna, in my

long life I have had only two> constant companions. > One has been Grief...

grief of every conceivable> kind. And the other > has been You. It is you two

who have been by my side> all my life. > Sometimes, O Krishna, I'm tempted to

believe that> You are always by> my side only because Grief also happens to be

my> inseparable > companion! But if that were truly so, my dear> Krishna, if

all it will > take to make You never leave my side is only Grief,> then I shall

> welcome grief a thousand times more painful to enter> into my heart> and drown

it! O Krishna, I pray to Thee! Give me a> thousand more> great causes for

distress in life, but please> promise === message truncated

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[Guest guest]

Respected Bhaktas,

 

It is my opinion that if God can only love, he ought

to love in terms of preventing disasters too. Since

God cannot tolerate any kind of aggression towards his

Bhaktas(paritraanaaya saadhoonaam....)and also has all

the potential to protect them from any kind of

disasters irrespective of the free will of the

perpetrators(like those acts He did against

Hiranyakashipu and the Kauravas), such past acts will

have to be categorised under "fate". However, this is

not to say that one can do anything he/she likes to do

and subsequently call it "fate". Normally people have

to follow the dharma shastras for deciding on every

course of action to be taken by them. It is not

possible for anyone to argue that so many people met

with the same fate at that time. Even otherwise, so

many people throughout the world die at the same time

and this argument is not put forth to those instances.

Since the life of all people is decided at the time of

their birth itself, my predilection would be to term

this disaster under the context of "fate". Otherwise

how would it be possible for such a giant nation with

the best security and technology systems in the world

to overlook 4 airplanes being hijacked at the same

time and not know of it till such time all of them

crashed? What was happening to all the radar screens?

What about the communication of the pilots to the

ground staff? There are several other questions too

and if all of these had to happen simultaneously, it

can't be mere coincidence but has to be actually fate.

 

 

Vaachika doshaha kshantavyaha

Vasudeva dasan.

--- Sandhya Chandarlapaty <g_eggs wrote:

>

> Sree Raama Namaha:

> Respected Sri Narender,

> Your reply is indeed very well enlightning and very

> clear ly written . I have read Sri Sudarshan's great

> reply too. Ever since the tragedy that struck this

> nation on Tuesday I have been trying hard to put

> this into the perspective of Fate vs Free Will vs

> Bhagvat Sankalpam. ."Free will" is the initiative of

> the individual to seek God's help or saranagathi -

> this is what I understand from your email. That also

> means that the individual can choose not to seek any

> of the above. Since God can only love, this act can

> never be Bhagavat Sankalpam. Fate does not seem to

> apply given that so many individuals faced the same

> situation. Free will that has been misused - this

> seems to to me as the only way to put the horrible

> act into the perspective of Fate vs Free Will vs

> Bhagvat Sankalpam. Kindly forgive my ignorance, and

> help me with your thoughts on this.

>

> Sree Raama Namaha:

>

> -Sandhya

>

> Narender Reddy <reddynp wrote: Sri

> Sudarshan has provided a very enlightening

> information/discussion on "the roles of Fate, Free

> Will, and Bhagavadsankalpam." Let me express my

> ignorance by adding few comments.

>

> Without Bhagavath Sanklpam, No action or result can

> take place. The actions are two fold: (1) those

> dictated by Fate (Karma) and (2) those by Free Will.

>

> Bhagavth Sanklpam consists of three components, each

> superceeding the other: (1) Fate (Past Karma),

> (2)Bhavath kataksham toward prapanna as a result of

> Saranagathi, and (3) Nirhethuka Krupa (Causeless

> Mercy) of Sri Bhagavan.

>

> First, the Fate (results of past Karma) is

> preprogrammed into an automated system, and the

> results are bound to appear unless Sri Bhagavan

> interveins. Now, it is up to the Free Will of the

> individual to seek God's help and perform

> Saranagathi.

> If one seeks His help, He remove some of the

> unwanted

> results and then He shows the path toward

> Saranagathi.

> He interveins in the delivery of Fate (Karma) and

> reprograms it so as to lead the prapanna toward

> Mukthi. However, in some cases (at His will), He

> showers His Nirhethuka Krupa (causeless mercy) and

> gives Gnana (reveals Himself) to perform saranagathi

> without the individual seeking His Help. He could

> erase all his (athma's) karma or part of it. It is

> His

> Will. He is Sri Hari(Stealer of sins), and He is Sri

> Venkateswara (burner of sins or karmas). Ven means

> Sin, Kata means to burn, Iswara means Controller.

> Therefore, He can erase karma at His will. While #2

> i.e. seeking His help may require previous samskara

> or

> the comapnay of good devotees, #3 does not require

> any.

>

> In conclusion, (1) Any action/result is due to

> Bhagavth Sankalpam, (2) Certain ctions may be

> warranted by previous Karma, (3) we can act by Free

> Will but beyond what is dectated by karma, (4)

> Results

> are dictated by Fate (Karma), (5) but Bhagavan

> overrules the preprogramed Fate if we seek His help,

> and (6) Bhagavan over rules the Fate of some

> individuals as a causeless mercy (Nirhethuka Krupa).

>

> In the service of Lord Sri Venkateswara, I remain,

>

> Sincerely

> Narender Reddy

>

>

>

> --- "Sudarshan M.K." <sampathkumar_2000

> wrote:

> > tiruvengadam, "Sudarshan M.K."

> > <sampathkumar_2000>

> > wrote:

> > tiruvengadam, "Malolan Cadambi"

> > <mcadambi> wrote:

> > > sri:

> > > Dear Bhaktas,

> > > On a jiiva, what "roles" do Fate, Free will and

> > Bhagavad Sankalpam

> > mean? Does Bhagavad Sankalpam alone rule a jiiva

> or

> > does the jiiva

> > have some free will? Does the jiiva have ability

> to

> > think rationally

> > or does even thinking require bhagavad sankalpam?

> > Does the power of

> > bhagavad sankalpam superseed everything else?

> >

> > > My apologies if the questions sound irreverent.

> > Adiyen Ramanuja Daasan,

> > > Malolan Cadambi

> > ********************

> >

> >

> > Dear Sri.Malolan,

> >

> > It is a very important, not irreverent, question

> > that you ask. In

> > fact, everyone of us should seek answers to such

> > questions in our own

> > lives. It is part of 'atma-vIchAram' or what is

> > known in Vedantic

> > parlance as inquiry into Self.

> >

> > Fate, Free Will and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' (The

> > Supreme Will of God)

> > --- what "roles" do they play in an individual's

> > (jIvA) life?

> >

> > Adiyane too has asked himself such questions at

> many

> > times in life.

> > Apart from finding some useful clues in the

> Vedantic

> > treatises of

> > SriVaishnava 'achAryA-s' (FYI, e.g. in

> > "yatindra-mata-deepikA"), in

> > adiyane's view one can get the best possible and

> > most illuminating

> > answers more easily from a deep study of the

> > character of Kunti-devi

> > in the Mahabharata.

> >

> > Kunti's whole life is a magnificent canvass on

> which

> > Fate, Free-will

> > and 'bhagavath-sankalpam' all freely painted their

> > own motifs. The

> > final result was that Kunti evolved as a person

> into

> > an exceptionally

> > noble soul, a supreme 'gnyAni' in her own right

> and

> > into an

> > especially beloved one of God, comparable only to

> > the 'gopeekA-s' of

> > Brindavan for whom Krishna had a very special

> place

> > in His heart.

> >

> > At a very early age Fate dealt Kunti a rather

> cruel

> > hand. Factors and

> > forces beyond her control or comprehension turned

> > her into a young,

> > un-wed mother (of Karna). Kunti secretly and

> > silently bore that

> > supreme shame of womanhood to almost the very end

> of

> > her life.

> >

> > Kunti married early but equally soon she also

> became

> > an unfortuante

> > widow. Thereafter, although she was a Queen in the

> > royal house she

> > actually lived anything but a Queen's life. Like

> any

> > widow in those

> > times she was nothing but what they call, in

> Tamil,

> > a woe-begone

> > "vAzhAvatti". She and her 5 children were

> maltreated

> > by the Kauravas.

> > She bore insults, barbs, oppression and

> humiliation

> > at every stage of

> > her early motherhood. Even within her own home she

> > lived in constant

> > fear of her and her children's lives. The Kauravas

> > tried to poison

> > her sons; their house was set afire, there were

> > spies and enemies all

> > around them...

> >

> > When her children, the Pandavas, grew up Kunti

> > watched them being

> > slowly dispossessed of all that was their royal

> > right. She lived to

> > see her daughter-in-law's modesty outraged under

> > full public gaze

> > amidst family members and venerable elders. She

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

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