'shanti, shAnti, shAnti:' - Bhagavad Gita Why no shanti?

October 31, 2001

--- RGarlandG wrote:

> What was Kurukshetra? What was the battel between Sri Ramachandra

> and Ravana?> Sri Krishna's advice to Arjuna was to fight rather

then to abandon> his dharma > as a Kashatria.

> Was the battel justified?

> Om shanti,

> Brahma

Dear friend,

Thank you for your long and very thoughtful note. You have raised

many important and pertinent questions of morality. (BTW, are you

from India? Your e-name doesn't seem to suggest so). I think many

members on the SriRangasri-list too might have had the same thought

as you after reading my post on 'shAnti, shAnti, shAnti'. So, with

your kind permission, I'm copying this correspondence to the

main-list. For any further correspondence on this subject we can go

off-line.

I posted the note "shAnti, shAnti, shAnti" on the group

out of a sense of despair. The reason being that I live and work in

Kuwait from where I have a clear, ringside view of the so-called

"holy war of civilizations" presently being fought in this part of

the world. I'm quite saddened by what I see and hear here everyday.

Be that as it may, let me turn to your specific question on the

'Bhagavath-gita':

Contrary to popular notion, the Bhagavath-gita is not a clarion call

to take up arms. Although God, in his 'avatAr' as Krishna,

participated in the war, Kurukshetra was not a "religious-war" in the

sense in which we know that term today. Kurukshetra was, quite

simply, a savagely fratricidal war. Period. In it, not once did the

Pandavas or the Kauravas claim to be waging war in the name of God.

(They may have co-opted God into war; but they were honest enough not

to claim they were fighting it on God's behalf). The war they fought

was hence no 'holier' than all the wars that have been fought on

earthly soil since.

The Kurukshetra War is popularly referred to as "dharma-yuddha" i.e.

the war the forces of 'dharma' (righteousness) waged against those of

"a-dharma" (evil-doers). This is what is taken to be the fundamental

message of the Bhagavath-gita-- in the cosmic struggle between Good

and Evil, there is simply no relenting. And so, like Arjuna, we too

better take up arms and do battle.

But if you study the Gita carefully you will begin to appreciate that

this message is true only to a very limited extent. It is in fact

less important than it seems. The far more important message of the

'gitAchAryan' is this:

The Kurukshetra War is indeed "dharma-yuddha". What is however to be

understood from the term 'dharma-yuddha' is that the world of Man has

only one choice for its continuing survival. It must either bow to

'dharma' or else face 'yuddha'. 'a-dharma' is said to have one fixed

sticker-price only and it is this: inevitable 'yuddha'....

For individuals and nations alike who forsake 'dharma', the price to

be paid is the same: "yuddha" - War! At the individual plane the

'yuddha' takes form as the struggle between his/her lower and higher

self, between desire and aspiration, between death and immortality.

Amongst nations, peoples or civilizations (as between the Pandavas

and Kauravas) the 'yuddha' is waged differently and at many levels --

political, economic, social or ideological. In all cases, it is only

bound to result in one form or other of 'yuddha'... Make no mistake

about it.

Through the 'Gita', one learns another valuable lesson too: If you do

not marry 'dharma' in haste (and remain monogamous ever after), you

will be left later on repenting it at leisure all your life through

recurring 'yuddha'. "Yuddha" becomes then not only natural outcome

but also moral imperative. When that happens one can't even shy away

from it... This painful lesson was driven home by Krishna to Arjuna

on the eve of War. "The horror of war is about to begin, O Arjuna",

Krishna seemed to say to him then, "This is neither the time nor the

place for contemplation".

Now, when the Vedas say "shAnti, shAnti, shAnti" they are echoing

pretty much the same message as Krishna's but perhaps couch it in

different words, which, as I explained in my last post, mean only

this: "You must learn to be peaceful before you can even begin

learning to be religious-minded".

So, it would be sad and utter misreading of the 'Bhagavath-Gita' if

it is taken to be moral justification or a veiled apology for war.

The 'Gita' in its essence actually tells us the very opposite: it

tells us about the grim inevitablity of war and the horrors it visits

upon us.

I think we will all be sadly disappointed if we attempt to use the

idiom and ideas of the 'Bhagavath-gita' to identify who amongst us in

this world is 'Pandava' (the "good-guys") and who is 'Kaurava' (the

"bad-guys"). The 'Gita' can only uncover the 'Pandava' and 'Kaurava'

residing deep within our own individual selves. The 'Gita' can only

serve us as an eternal source of inspiration. I'm always doubtful

whenever it is sought to used as a tool of indictment.

If you think about it deeply, the 'Gita' actually sums up the painful

dilemmas of the world in a neat little but time-tested equation:

When 'dharma' wanes, 'yuddha' must arise;

When 'yuddha' arises, 'shAnti' vanishes;

When 'shAnti' vanishes, 'sAdhu-s' perish;

When 'sAdhus' perish, I die with them !

But there is no Death for Me! Not now, and never ever!

So place your trust in Me, O 'sAdhu-s' of the world!

In Me alone and shed all fear!

(..."mAmEkam sharanam-vrajA... mA-shucha:!)

Thanks and regards,

dAsan,

Sudarshan

Make a great connection at Personals.

http://personals.

October 31, 2001

Dear Sampath Kumar Swamin

I am Raman Kannan, AKA Anandavalli Dasan.

I am little confused and if I may , I would

like to seek clarification.

Suppose, this group had the opportunity to advise

Pandavas, (just for a moment ...Krishna is not

there at the time this Pandavas happened to be

) and this email group seeks your opinion,

what would your opinion be based on your reading

and understanding of Gita.

I have no problem with your thesis that

wars MAY not be fought on religious grounds.

Especially those who believe in vedas and

the truth contained in them. That one must

respect all scriptures and religions.

I have references

to Bhagavatham in this regard.

However, if over a period of time, I see

innocent people getting murdered quite

regularly as in Kashmir or as in New York City

or for that matter in Afganistan, or in

Kurdistan or in Kosavo...

what pray must I do. What pointers does Gita

tell me in this regard.

What are the pros and cons. My quandry is about

the evil-doers amongst a great many good and hard

working people?

I appreciate your time and generosity to share

your thoughts on this matter.

Om Namo Narayana

--

Raman Kannan

--- sampath kumar <sampathkumar_2000 wrote:

> --- RGarlandG wrote:

>

> > What was Kurukshetra? What was the battel between

> Sri Ramachandra

> > and Ravana?> Sri Krishna's advice to Arjuna was to

> fight rather

> then to abandon> his dharma > as a Kashatria.

> > Was the battel justified?

> > Om shanti,

> > Brahma

>

> Dear friend,

> Thank you for your long and very thoughtful note.

> You have raised

> many important and pertinent questions of morality.

> (BTW, are you

> from India? Your e-name doesn't seem to suggest so).

> I think many

> members on the SriRangasri-list too might have had

> the same thought

> as you after reading my post on 'shAnti, shAnti,

> shAnti'. So, with

> your kind permission, I'm copying this

> correspondence to the

> main-list. For any further correspondence on this

> subject we can go

> off-line.

>

> I posted the note "shAnti, shAnti, shAnti" on the

> group

> out of a sense of despair. The reason being that I

> live and work in

> Kuwait from where I have a clear, ringside view of

> the so-called

> "holy war of civilizations" presently being fought

> in this part of

> the world. I'm quite saddened by what I see and hear

> here everyday.

>

> Be that as it may, let me turn to your specific

> question on the

> 'Bhagavath-gita':

>

> Contrary to popular notion, the Bhagavath-gita is

> not a clarion call

> to take up arms. Although God, in his 'avatAr' as

> Krishna,

> participated in the war, Kurukshetra was not a

> "religious-war" in the

> sense in which we know that term today. Kurukshetra

> was, quite

> simply, a savagely fratricidal war. Period. In it,

> not once did the

> Pandavas or the Kauravas claim to be waging war in

> the name of God.

> (They may have co-opted God into war; but they were

> honest enough not

> to claim they were fighting it on God's behalf). The

> war they fought

> was hence no 'holier' than all the wars that have

> been fought on

> earthly soil since.

>

> The Kurukshetra War is popularly referred to as

> "dharma-yuddha" i.e.

> the war the forces of 'dharma' (righteousness) waged

> against those of

> "a-dharma" (evil-doers). This is what is taken to be

> the fundamental

> message of the Bhagavath-gita-- in the cosmic

> struggle between Good

> and Evil, there is simply no relenting. And so, like

> Arjuna, we too

> better take up arms and do battle.

>

> But if you study the Gita carefully you will begin

> to appreciate that

> this message is true only to a very limited extent.

> It is in fact

> less important than it seems. The far more important

> message of the

> 'gitAchAryan' is this:

>

> The Kurukshetra War is indeed "dharma-yuddha". What

> is however to be

> understood from the term 'dharma-yuddha' is that the

> world of Man has

> only one choice for its continuing survival. It must

> either bow to

> 'dharma' or else face 'yuddha'. 'a-dharma' is said

> to have one fixed

> sticker-price only and it is this: inevitable

> 'yuddha'....

>

> For individuals and nations alike who forsake

> 'dharma', the price to

> be paid is the same: "yuddha" - War! At the

> individual plane the

> 'yuddha' takes form as the struggle between his/her

> lower and higher

> self, between desire and aspiration, between death

> and immortality.

> Amongst nations, peoples or civilizations (as

> between the Pandavas

> and Kauravas) the 'yuddha' is waged differently and

> at many levels --

> political, economic, social or ideological. In all

> cases, it is only

> bound to result in one form or other of 'yuddha'...

> Make no mistake

> about it.

>

> Through the 'Gita', one learns another valuable

> lesson too: If you do

> not marry 'dharma' in haste (and remain monogamous

> ever after), you

> will be left later on repenting it at leisure all

> your life through

> recurring 'yuddha'. "Yuddha" becomes then not only

> natural outcome

> but also moral imperative. When that happens one

> can't even shy away

> from it... This painful lesson was driven home by

> Krishna to Arjuna

> on the eve of War. "The horror of war is about to

> begin, O Arjuna",

> Krishna seemed to say to him then, "This is neither

> the time nor the

> place for contemplation".

>

> Now, when the Vedas say "shAnti, shAnti, shAnti"

> they are echoing

> pretty much the same message as Krishna's but

> perhaps couch it in

> different words, which, as I explained in my last

> post, mean only

> this: "You must learn to be peaceful before you can

> even begin

> learning to be religious-minded".

>

> So, it would be sad and utter misreading of the

> 'Bhagavath-Gita' if

> it is taken to be moral justification or a veiled

> apology for war.

> The 'Gita' in its essence actually tells us the very

> opposite: it

> tells us about the grim inevitablity of war and the

> horrors it visits

> upon us.

>

> I think we will all be sadly disappointed if we

> attempt to use the

> idiom and ideas of the 'Bhagavath-gita' to identify

> who amongst us in

> this world is 'Pandava' (the "good-guys") and who is

> 'Kaurava' (the

> "bad-guys"). The 'Gita' can only uncover the

> 'Pandava' and 'Kaurava'

> residing deep within our own individual selves. The

> 'Gita' can only

> serve us as an eternal source of inspiration. I'm

> always doubtful

> whenever it is sought to used as a tool of

> indictment.

>

> If you think about it deeply, the 'Gita' actually

> sums up the painful

> dilemmas of the world in a neat little but

> time-tested equation:

>

> When 'dharma' wanes, 'yuddha' must arise;

> When 'yuddha' arises, 'shAnti' vanishes;

> When 'shAnti' vanishes, 'sAdhu-s' perish;

> When 'sAdhus' perish, I die with them !

> But there is no Death for Me! Not now, and never

> ever!

> So place your trust in Me, O 'sAdhu-s' of the world!

>

> In Me alone and shed all fear!

> (..."mAmEkam sharanam-vrajA... mA-shucha:!)

>

> Thanks and regards,

> dAsan,

> Sudarshan

>

> Make a great connection at Personals.

> http://personals.

>

Make a great connection at Personals.

http://personals.

October 31, 2001

, Raman Kannan <rrfamily> wrote:

>

> However, if over a period of time, I see

> innocent people getting murdered quite

> regularly as in Kashmir or as in New York City

> or for that matter in Afganistan, or in

> Kurdistan or in Kosavo...

> what pray must I do.

>

The best prayer would be what R.N.Tagore pleads to HIM in Gitanjali

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;

Where knowledge is free;

Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by

narrow domestic walls;

Where words come out from the depth of truth;

Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection;

Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the

dreary desert sand of dead habit;

Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought

and action---

Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

November 1, 2001

Dear Sri Sudarshan (or Sri Sampath Kumar),

Love and respects.

Your explanation and narration is just EXCELLENT. I bow my head in all humility

and sincerity for your splendid reply. Kindly keep it up. Thank you very much.

Love and regards.

Gopi Krishna.

>>> sampath kumar <sampathkumar_2000 10/31 6:02 PM >>>