Guest guest Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 I was faced with a similar situation, it has been a practise to have the babies tontured at a temple of one devathanthram in our ancestoral village. Even veru orthodox person such as my grand father had suscribed to such acts in the past. Recently when i had an occassion, I made a mention about this to H.H. Azagiya Singar- my acharya. "koodathu ethavathu nadakkum endru nee ninaithaal lakshmi nrusimhan jawab" (Strict No, if you feel there could be any unplesant conseqences, Lord Lakshmi Nrusimhan will take the responsibility.) was his reply. The main tenet of saranagathi is Maha Viswasam. There is one God and none to whom we shall pray except his own bakthas. Saranagathi is done for obtaining moksha. Puthukku Paal are all done expecting results such as health, wealth, children etc., Para Nyasam is done to surrender our soul to the Lord and seek Him. Other karmas such as puthukku paal would be a barrier in performing saranagathi. It is common knowledge that it is only Sriman Narayana who grants what ever is prayed to the other devathanthrams adiyen baktha angari renu vasu venkataraghavan - askanth Tuesday, January 22, 2002 1:57 AM Question related to Bharniyasanam Dear group members,If a person has had bharniyasanam from HH Acharyas, can that person get involved with "puthukku paal" if it was being followed from ancestors who also had bharniyasanam, so that traditions would be maintained?Thank you all very much,RegardsadiyenTo from this group, send an email to:Srirangasri-Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Thanks for sri Vasu Venkatraghavan for the clarification. tradition just because it was followed by ancestors does not mean anything. tradition has to be evaluated in the light of shaastras. I seriously advice everyone to make effort to learn the essence of our shastras. WE are bringing so many learned scholars and acharyas on the teleconference. If you do not want to quit US and go to india to study under acharyas, at least make effort to listen to their lectures and learn these issues. strictly speaking one should not even have such doubts after prapatti. before prapatti itself one has to make effort to find out what it is about. this can be done by effort. to come to US one takes up exams such as GRE, GMAT etc. to go to vaikuntam one has to work to understand what the paths are. One has to clearly know what is bhakti yogam, prapatti etc. Every attainment here or hereafter requires some sacrifice. Even getting a job requires effort. Hence I suggest everyone to focus and learn some details deeply regarding prapatti. there are a number of books also. However learning under gurus is definitely preferable and books should be used only for additional clarifications or anusandhanam - practice. Dr. NS anantharangachar is teaching sharangati gadyam - the essence of the theory and practice of sharanagathi or surrender. Please look into bhaktilist postings and probably there will be a class next week. adiyen Krishna Kashyap VASU VENKAT.K. [vasu_venkat (AT) hotmail (DOT) com]Tuesday, January 22, 2002 6:32 AMTo: ; askanthRe: Question related to Bharniyasanam I was faced with a similar situation, it has been a practise to have the babies tontured at a temple of one devathanthram in our ancestoral village. Even veru orthodox person such as my grand father had suscribed to such acts in the past. Recently when i had an occassion, I made a mention about this to H.H. Azagiya Singar- my acharya. "koodathu ethavathu nadakkum endru nee ninaithaal lakshmi nrusimhan jawab" (Strict No, if you feel there could be any unplesant conseqences, Lord Lakshmi Nrusimhan will take the responsibility.) was his reply. The main tenet of saranagathi is Maha Viswasam. There is one God and none to whom we shall pray except his own bakthas. Saranagathi is done for obtaining moksha. Puthukku Paal are all done expecting results such as health, wealth, children etc., Para Nyasam is done to surrender our soul to the Lord and seek Him. Other karmas such as puthukku paal would be a barrier in performing saranagathi. It is common knowledge that it is only Sriman Narayana who grants what ever is prayed to the other devathanthrams adiyen baktha angari renu vasu venkataraghavan - askanth Tuesday, January 22, 2002 1:57 AM Question related to Bharniyasanam Dear group members,If a person has had bharniyasanam from HH Acharyas, can that person get involved with "puthukku paal" if it was being followed from ancestors who also had bharniyasanam, so that traditions would be maintained?Thank you all very much,RegardsadiyenTo from this group, send an email to:Srirangasri-Your use of is subject to the To from this group, send an email to:Srirangasri-Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 asmad gurubhyo namah, I would like everyone to be free and ask questions whatever they may be. it is better if one asks and several people benefit from the answers they get. adiyen Krishna Kashyap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Thondar Uhakkum Un Thunai Adi Vaazhi Respected Bhagavadhothamas This is a topic that has been engaging the attention of our fellow-vaishnavites. Though in general I agree with the exponential theme put forth by Sriman Vasu and Sriman Krishna, adiyen differs with the views of Krishnaji with respect to his mention "just because it was followed by ancestors does not mean anything". Ancestors have given us everything. If we are in this state today, it is their blessing and the atmosphere in which we were brought up. Suddenly, we cannot throw to winds the preachings and the anushtanams that we have been taught. Probably, with the amount of literatures/lectures/ charyans' Arulvaakku, etc. we are enriching our knowledge. At the same time, it is difficult to give a go-by to the anushtanams/practices that our ancestors, who are none other than our Acharyans, have bequeathed to us. Even the Almighty comes in the last of four, "Matha, Pitha, Guru and Deivam". Further, in Thondaradipodi Alwar's pasuram "Thirumalai", "Saadhi Andanarhalelum, numarhali pazhipparahil.....", the essence is that even if the vedic-chanting Brahmins cause any disrespect to Ranganathan's adiyargal, he will not forgive. A section of our vaishnavite sect adopts the teachings (only after Swami Desikan's avatharam) Azhwars only when it suits them. For instance, Samayapuram Mariamman Temple was under the administrative control of Lord Ranganathaswamy Devasthanam till a decade or so ago. For some inexplicable reasons, the Govt. of the day chose to hive off Samayapuram Devasthanam of Goddess Mariamman separately. They of course co-exist. Many of the vaishnavites of Srirangam original would vouchsafe the coordination between these two temples in conduct of Uthsavams. Goddess Mariamman even today comes to the banks of Cauvery at Srirangam, as it is only 4 miles away. Many of the Satthanis {flower merchants who are doing kainkaryam in Srirangam temple) used to offer flowers to the Goddess and the Mariamman Temple's daily poojas are performed by hereditary Gurukkal. For decades these practices are going on. To say that whateve ancestors have done is not correct, it is, I BEG TO SUBMIT, difficult to digest. Whatever our parents say is VEDHA VAKKU. How will you differ? Another interesting instance. Nowadays, lakhs are undertaking pilgrimage to Sabarimala. H H Mukkur Azhagiayasinghar once chided a friend of mine, when he went in a black dress, to the Mutt. But at the same time, when another friend of mine could not secure the consent of his parents (srivaishnavites) to undertake this yatra, he was advised by the group not to undertake as without the parents' consent (veda vakku), no pilgrimage of the sort can be undertaken. I am just amplifying. PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I AM WRONG OR I GO ASTRAY. PLEASE DO CORRECT ME. I am performing Nithyaradhanam of about 16 perumals in my residence, I am not failing in performing my Nithya karmas. After Saaya Sandhyavandanam, I offer my dhandam to my parents. I am a Sama vedhi, doing Sama Adhyananam for the past 8 years. Being the blessed son-in-law of late Natteri Sesadrichariar swami, I know Thiruvoimozhi and Mudhalayiram. However, I am putting across the above views only to elicit further thoughts and response. ONCE AGAIN I SEEK THE PARDON IF I AM WRONG. Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan SWAMI DESIKAN THIRUVADIGALE CHARANAM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 respected bhagavathas, It is a pleasure to communicate with esteemed members like sri Srirangam Srinivasa Raghavan swamy with vedic and naalayiram background. I would refer to my sentences : tradition just > because it was followed by ancestors does not mean anything. tradition has > to be evaluated in the light of shaastras. I would request Sri Srinivasa Raghavn swamy to kindly re consider both the sentences of mine before making a conclusion regarding my views. Tradition has to be evaluated in the light of shastras. This is a age old time tested strategy suggested by all vedantic schools including Sri Shankaracharya who stated : shastra acharya mukhena - which means - contemplate the words of guru and compare it with the words of shastras. Matru devo bhava and pitru devo bhava are valid vedic statements. However, I am not commenting on any particular parents here. However, for example if sri Prahladan had listened to his father Hiranyakasipu, it would be wrong or if vibheesanan had listened to Ravanan, who was jyesta putran and hence equal to father, it would be again wrong. Hence, eventhough we have to respect our parents, we have to evaluate everything in the light of shastras. Some mistakes are more deadly compared to others. our acharyar, HH Azhagiasingar stated that " for a prapannan, anyadevata puja or sambandam is "suicidal" and will obliterate his / her prapatti". I questioned HH further and said - " Respected Acharyar - why should we say that? ; bhagavatam states that "vaishnavanam yatha shambhuh" ( meaning Siva is foremost among vaishnavas) and further, ahirbudhnya samhita, from which our acharyas gain support to the concept of prapatti was given as upadesam by Ahirbudhnyan who is Sattvic Form of Sivan to Sage Narada". Considering all these should Sivan not be considered as a great acharyan in our system ?" HH Azhagiasingar stated " Inspite of all these pramanams, Lord Srimannarayanan is the ultimate God and all others are dependent. We should not have Anya devata sambandam, since we are seshabhutas or servants of that srimannarayan alone and not other jivas. We should not consider anya devatas as deities since even such practices will slowly develop into major issues in families in a couple of generations, due to fear etc. We have to firmly believe even when faced with great dangers in life on srimannarayan only. NOTHING should change this mahavishvasam in us. All these scriptural support etc. you are mentioning only means that we should not disrespect other deities or have any hatred towards them." In practice, things may change over several generations due to traditions in families. For example, I know a person whose grand parents had kept a "VEL" - ( belonging to Murugan deity) along with the Saligramams in their puja griham. This person after his grandparents passed away, due to respect and as per parental guidance, kept on worshipping Murugan and also celebrating the appropriate festivals for Murugan. HE has become so staunch devotee of Murugan now, it is impossible for him to see the relative difference between Murugan ( who is a demiGod) and Srimannarayan who is the Ultimate Bramhan! Demi Gods are also Jivans. If this person had put some efforts to ask Acharyas who are more knowlegeable than parents and conducted a study of shastras like rahasysatrayasaram or srivachanabhusanam, it would have been better for him. All these issues matter to MUMUKSHUS and Prapannas. Sri vedanta desikar states: Bramhanam shitikantam cha yaashcanyah devata smritah pratibuddhah na sevante yasmat parimitam phalam. - the intelligent ones do not pray to Siva, Bramha and other such dieties since they can only give limited fruits. If one gives great importance to one's Moksham, I think it is best to avoid any questionable acts or thoughts that may affect their relationship with srimannarayan. It is not just a question of life and death but - millions of lives and deaths!! This is so important. Even for a simple issue like keeping our jobs, we take so much care not to do something that displeases our company presidents or CEOs. Hence it is in our interest to keep our relationship with srimannarayan, who is the CEO of everything. - Let me remind people about the great mantra here - vasuranyo vibhurasi prane tvamasi sandhatha bramhan tvamasi vishvadhrit tejo das tvamasi gnirasi...( Mahanarayaniya - quoted in support for prapatti) Adiyen Krishna Kashyap. Raghav [Raghav] Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:37 PM vasu_venkat; ; hotsamosa; kkalale1 RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam Thondar Uhakkum Un Thunai Adi Vaazhi Respected Bhagavadhothamas This is a topic that has been engaging the attention of our fellow-vaishnavites. Though in general I agree with the exponential theme put forth by Sriman Vasu and Sriman Krishna, adiyen differs with the views of Krishnaji with respect to his mention "just because it was followed by ancestors does not mean anything". Ancestors have given us everything. If we are in this state today, it is their blessing and the atmosphere in which we were brought up. Suddenly, we cannot throw to winds the preachings and the anushtanams that we have been taught. Probably, with the amount of literatures/lectures/ charyans' Arulvaakku, etc. we are enriching our knowledge. At the same time, it is difficult to give a go-by to the anushtanams/practices that our ancestors, who are none other than our Acharyans, have bequeathed to us. Even the Almighty comes in the last of four, "Matha, Pitha, Guru and Deivam". Further, in Thondaradipodi Alwar's pasuram "Thirumalai", "Saadhi Andanarhalelum, numarhali pazhipparahil.....", the essence is that even if the vedic-chanting Brahmins cause any disrespect to Ranganathan's adiyargal, he will not forgive. A section of our vaishnavite sect adopts the teachings (only after Swami Desikan's avatharam) Azhwars only when it suits them. For instance, Samayapuram Mariamman Temple was under the administrative control of Lord Ranganathaswamy Devasthanam till a decade or so ago. For some inexplicable reasons, the Govt. of the day chose to hive off Samayapuram Devasthanam of Goddess Mariamman separately. They of course co-exist. Many of the vaishnavites of Srirangam original would vouchsafe the coordination between these two temples in conduct of Uthsavams. Goddess Mariamman even today comes to the banks of Cauvery at Srirangam, as it is only 4 miles away. Many of the Satthanis {flower merchants who are doing kainkaryam in Srirangam temple) used to offer flowers to the Goddess and the Mariamman Temple's daily poojas are performed by hereditary Gurukkal. For decades these practices are going on. To say that whateve ancestors have done is not correct, it is, I BEG TO SUBMIT, difficult to digest. Whatever our parents say is VEDHA VAKKU. How will you differ? Another interesting instance. Nowadays, lakhs are undertaking pilgrimage to Sabarimala. H H Mukkur Azhagiayasinghar once chided a friend of mine, when he went in a black dress, to the Mutt. But at the same time, when another friend of mine could not secure the consent of his parents (srivaishnavites) to undertake this yatra, he was advised by the group not to undertake as without the parents' consent (veda vakku), no pilgrimage of the sort can be undertaken. I am just amplifying. PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I AM WRONG OR I GO ASTRAY. PLEASE DO CORRECT ME. I am performing Nithyaradhanam of about 16 perumals in my residence, I am not failing in performing my Nithya karmas. After Saaya Sandhyavandanam, I offer my dhandam to my parents. I am a Sama vedhi, doing Sama Adhyananam for the past 8 years. Being the blessed son-in-law of late Natteri Sesadrichariar swami, I know Thiruvoimozhi and Mudhalayiram. However, I am putting across the above views only to elicit further thoughts and response. ONCE AGAIN I SEEK THE PARDON IF I AM WRONG. Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan SWAMI DESIKAN THIRUVADIGALE CHARANAM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Dear Friend: Samayapuram koil belonging to Srirangam PeriyaKoil was done for administrative reasons, making a few temples come under Sri Ranganathar Vahaiyaraa (etc.) Devasthanam and for the same reason, Koil Mariyaadi, like Poochchoriyal is sent to other temples from PeriyaKoil. This has nothing to do with the Agamic tradition followed by The Temple. As you know, for income reasons the other temple got split with PeriyaKoil. Vada-Thirukkaaveri manal-thittu does not belong to PeriyaKoil. Other temples can use the area for Thai-poosam and Maasi-makam. Dr. K. P. Sarathy ---- --- raghav wrote: > Thondar Uhakkum Un Thunai Adi Vaazhi > > > Respected Bhagavadhothamas > > This is a topic that has been engaging the attention of our > fellow-vaishnavites. Though in general I agree with the exponential theme > put forth by Sriman Vasu and Sriman Krishna, adiyen differs with the views > of Krishnaji with respect to his mention "just because it was followed by > ancestors does not mean anything". Ancestors have given us everything. If > we are in this state today, it is their blessing and the atmosphere in which > we were brought up. Suddenly, we cannot throw to winds the preachings and > the anushtanams that we have been taught. Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Raghav. I beg to differ from your views. While it shows one's respect for his elders while following their family traditions unquestioned, that is not a desired charactersitic of an intellectual. I do agree that, even in our family we had some traditions to pray to some dEvathAntharAs. But I do not follow them now. In order to accept this, we have to have a change in our mindset and try to research the reasons that prompted our ancestors to do some anya devatha ArAdhanA. I am sure 100% that, there would be no valid reason, except that some one in our lineage due to some kAmya buddhi would have performed something and got some results and hence the same is being followed. However, as a true Srivaishnavite we are not to indulge is seeking anything that is kAmyam in nature. We are to seek only for the highest, which is salvation (mOkshA) and who else can give it other than Sriman nArAyaNa? So to follow the family traditions and do some ArAdhanAs to anya dEvathAs is right if you seek materialistic pleasure as, though capable, our emberumAn is so merciful that he will hesitate to give them to you, because you will still remain in this world away from Him. Afterall he is always wanting a unison with the jeevAtmAs. An interesting slOka from VaradarAjasthavam from Sri koorathAzhwAn comes to my mind here. " varada! yadhi ha vasthu vAnchAmyaham thava charaNa labhA virOdhas thatha yadhi na bhavathi thath pradhEhi prabhO! jatithi vidhara pAdhamEvAnyatha" He Sri AzhwAn prays to Sri Varadharaja, " Please do give me whatever I ask, only if it leads me to your lotus feet. If not, please do not give them. But do take me into your lotus feet immediately". See the greatness of this noble AchArya. Then the prodigious Thondaradippodi AzhwAr is always there. How many pAsuram is "thirumAlai" talk about renouncing anya dEvatha worship. " pulaiyaRamAgi ninRa puthodu samaNamellAm..." " veRuppodu samaNar muNdar..." and the clearest pAsuram "maRRumOr dheivamuNdE madhiyilA mAnidangAL uRRa pOdhanRi neengaL oruvan enRu uNara mAtter aRRa mEl onRu aRiyIr avanallAl dheivam illai kaRRinam mEitha endhai kazhaliNai paNimin neerE" For those who can follow Tamil, no need to explain the above pAsuram as it is in the simplest of the simple language. Here the AzhwAr calls those who worship anya dEvathAs (may be we can include here, those who worship due to family traditions also) as "madhiyilA mAnidangAL", one without knowledge. If we are to write about these things, I believe one message is not enough. A lot more may be required. However to end my note I would invite your attention to one of the main "angA" of the saraNAgathi, "mahAviswAsam". Can you justify the act of worshipping the anya dEvathAs, due to family tradition etc, with respect to this mahAviswAsam. When Sriman nArAyaNan can give the highest of the desirable, which is the mOksham, then can't He give what we want even if it is materialistic. The only problem is that he will hesitate to give into our materialistic desires, as that will take us away from Him. As every poorvAchAryA says, while He hesitates, He will still give it to us, if we still desire only for the materialistic pleasures. So IMHO, the worship of anya dEvathAs with family tradition in backgroud cannot be accepted in a justified sense. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 Thondar Uhakkum Nin Thunai Adi Vaazhi Can I be enlightened on the following 1. As we enter our temples, after paying obeisance at Dwajasthambam, we worship Garuthman and go to Gajanar (equivalent of Pilliayar). Is it OK ? 2. What is the role of Gajanar in our temples 3. Is it true that on Vinayaka Chathurthi day, kozhukattai is being offered to the Gajanar in Sri Ranga Vimanam ? 4. In Thirumaalai, I want our friends to elucidate on pasuram "Saadhi Andhanarhalelum, numarhalai pazhipparahil..." 5. In the pasurams mentioned by Shri Venkatesh swami, the reference is to Buddha, Samana, i.e. other Religions. It is correct ? 6. Thirumizhisai piran was in our faith and then switched over to other faiths before coming back to our fold. Thereby he established the supremacy of our faith. correct ? Swami Desikan's pasuram "Thai Magathi varum.......Matrai samayangal pala therindhu" 7. For a person who has not had a Bharanyasam (only of course Samasrayam), can he continue his own way till he comes forward for Baranyasa. It is only with a view to generating interest in the topic and ensure that the message percolates down to the last srivaishnavan, I am raising them. Please forgive me if I am wrong. Adiyen Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 This is an excellent article by sri TV VENKATESH. One should read it. adiyen Krishna TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR [tvv1] Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:11 PM raghav Cc: RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Raghav. I beg to differ from your views. While it shows one's respect for his elders while following their family traditions unquestioned, that is not a desired charactersitic of an intellectual. I do agree that, even in our family we had some traditions to pray to some dEvathAntharAs. But I do not follow them now. In order to accept this, we have to have a change in our mindset and try to research the reasons that prompted our ancestors to do some anya devatha ArAdhanA. I am sure 100% that, there would be no valid reason, except that some one in our lineage due to some kAmya buddhi would have performed something and got some results and hence the same is being followed. However, as a true Srivaishnavite we are not to indulge is seeking anything that is kAmyam in nature. We are to seek only for the highest, which is salvation (mOkshA) and who else can give it other than Sriman nArAyaNa? So to follow the family traditions and do some ArAdhanAs to anya dEvathAs is right if you seek materialistic pleasure as, though capable, our emberumAn is so merciful that he will hesitate to give them to you, because you will still remain in this world away from Him. Afterall he is always wanting a unison with the jeevAtmAs. An interesting slOka from VaradarAjasthavam from Sri koorathAzhwAn comes to my mind here. " varada! yadhi ha vasthu vAnchAmyaham thava charaNa labhA virOdhas thatha yadhi na bhavathi thath pradhEhi prabhO! jatithi vidhara pAdhamEvAnyatha" He Sri AzhwAn prays to Sri Varadharaja, " Please do give me whatever I ask, only if it leads me to your lotus feet. If not, please do not give them. But do take me into your lotus feet immediately". See the greatness of this noble AchArya. Then the prodigious Thondaradippodi AzhwAr is always there. How many pAsuram is "thirumAlai" talk about renouncing anya dEvatha worship. " pulaiyaRamAgi ninRa puthodu samaNamellAm..." " veRuppodu samaNar muNdar..." and the clearest pAsuram "maRRumOr dheivamuNdE madhiyilA mAnidangAL uRRa pOdhanRi neengaL oruvan enRu uNara mAtter aRRa mEl onRu aRiyIr avanallAl dheivam illai kaRRinam mEitha endhai kazhaliNai paNimin neerE" For those who can follow Tamil, no need to explain the above pAsuram as it is in the simplest of the simple language. Here the AzhwAr calls those who worship anya dEvathAs (may be we can include here, those who worship due to family traditions also) as "madhiyilA mAnidangAL", one without knowledge. If we are to write about these things, I believe one message is not enough. A lot more may be required. However to end my note I would invite your attention to one of the main "angA" of the saraNAgathi, "mahAviswAsam". Can you justify the act of worshipping the anya dEvathAs, due to family tradition etc, with respect to this mahAviswAsam. When Sriman nArAyaNan can give the highest of the desirable, which is the mOksham, then can't He give what we want even if it is materialistic. The only problem is that he will hesitate to give into our materialistic desires, as that will take us away from Him. As every poorvAchAryA says, while He hesitates, He will still give it to us, if we still desire only for the materialistic pleasures. So IMHO, the worship of anya dEvathAs with family tradition in backgroud cannot be accepted in a justified sense. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Srirangasri- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Members, Please pardon me for having accidentally hit the send button before completing the same. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Krishna, Thanks for your foreword. Interestingly, today morning I tuned into Jaya TV and they were telecasting a upanyAsam of Srimadh Azhagiasingar. As if to clear our doubts , he clearly quoted the pAsuram "kAkkum iyalvinan kaNNa perumAn..", means , it is kaNNan who has the 'saviour character' by nature. So why to go to any other devathAs. Additionally he added, even within the avatArAs of Sriman nArAyaNan, the best saviour is Narasimhan. Not Rama, not Krishna. The reason is of course, it was only Narasimhan who destroyed the enemy (HiraNyakasibhu) of His devotee (PrahalAdha) immediately when the avathArA was made. Rama killed Ravana only at 37 years of age. Even Krishna, when He killed the sakaTAsuran, He was either 4 or 5 months old as told by Sri periyAzhwAr "nAlgaLOr nAlainthu thingaLaLavilE, thALai nimirtthuch chagadatthaich chADippOi..." While pondering over this the following pAsuram of ThiruvAimozhi and the explanation given by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami came into my mind. " AdiyAdi agam karainthu, isai pAdip pAdik kaNNeermalgi - engum nAdi nAdi narasingA enRu vAdi vAdum ivvaNudalE" Continuation. Here, why the AzhwAr does not say " engum nAdi nAdi rAmA or KrishNa". Because for the same reason as stated above by Srimadh Azhagiasingar, it was only Narasimha who came to the help of His devotee immediately, true to word of the same AzhwAr in another pAsuram "... angu appozhudE avan veeya thOndRiya, en singappirAn perumai ArAyum seernaitthE". I hope no more clarification is required after these words from the Jeeyar swAmi. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Attachment: pic08723.pcx [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Srinivasa Raghavan swamy, I would try to answer your question to my knowledge. The left out questions mean, I do not know the answer. 1. Upto entering the temple, paying obeisance near the dwajasthambam and praying to garudAzhwAr is okay. To my knowledge I haven't heard about going to Gajananar mandatorily. As Sri garudAzhwAr is standing opposite perumAL, signifying that the vEdAs will always be looking at the perumAL, we should not stand in between perumAL and garudAzhwAr and also after paying obeisance to the vEda swaroopi, we should go towards thAyAr sannidhi first. This is what I heard of. Interestingly, in ThiruvallikkENi, there is a Gajananar in entrance and I have noticed, not a single Sri Vaishnvaite going to him after praying to Sri GarudAzhwAr. 2. The Gajananar whom we see in Sri Vaishnavite temples are not the Son of Siva, but the commander-in-chief of Sri ViswaksEna, who in turn is the commander-in-chief of emberumAn Himself. 4. This pAsuram talks about the bhAgavatApachAram. It should be noted that, the AzhwAr says, If one talks ill about His 'adiyAr', no matter even if that man is born in the Brahmin family, he will be treated as "pulayar" or untouchable. Here the word adiyAr carries a deeper meaning in that, the "adiyArs" are not just those who pray Sriman nArAyaNan, but are "maRandum puRam thozhA mAndhar". The mahAviswAsam that they have on Sriman nArAyaNan is unparalleled. 5. Yes, in the first two pAsuram that I had referred, the reference is to Jains and Buddhists. But please remember that this can be extended to anya dEvathAs also, as our poorvAchAryAs have equally chided the anya dEvatha worship. Unfortunately, the term Hinduism is now being interpreted as one religion by the westerners. Actually our poorvAchAryAs have classified, even the advaitha and dvaitha as different religions. Similarly Saivism is also considered as a separate religion only by our poorvAchAryAs. So we can conveniently tell that though the two pAsurams were for Jains and Buddhist, it is applicable to other Vedic religions too. However, the third pAsuram, beyond any doubt, clarifies our question of justifying anya dEvathA worship as a long followed family tradition. 6. The answer for first portion is correct. I do not know dEsika prabhandam and hence I do not want to comment on it. However, coming to the first part, the question itself is the answer. Yes, Thirumazhisai AzhwAr did follow all other religion and came back to our fold. Why? He was completely convinced beyond any doubts that Sriman nArAyaNan is the parathatvAm and hence He can give every thing that we need. 7. This question has to be viewed with correct mindset. If memebers will pArdon me, I would like to ask a very rough looking question! This is like a kanyA sthree asking (having known, I repeat, having known, it is wrong to do) 'can I go to anybody until I get married. I will become a true wife after I get married'. Any answer to this? Dear members, I would like to convey here, that though I have asked a rough question in 7 above, my intention is never to hurt anybody. I was only trying to bring out the logic in it. So if you feel, you are hurt by this question, I beg you all to pardon me kindly. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Thondar Uhakkum Nin Thunai Adi Vaazhi Can I be enlightened on the following 1. As we enter our temples, after paying obeisance at Dwajasthambam, we worship Garuthman and go to Gajanar (equivalent of Pilliayar). Is it OK ? 2. What is the role of Gajanar in our temples 3. Is it true that on Vinayaka Chathurthi day, kozhukattai is being offered to the Gajanar in Sri Ranga Vimanam ? 4. In Thirumaalai, I want our friends to elucidate on pasuram "Saadhi Andhanarhalelum, numarhalai pazhipparahil..." 5. In the pasurams mentioned by Shri Venkatesh swami, the reference is to Buddha, Samana, i.e. other Religions. It is correct ? 6. Thirumizhisai piran was in our faith and then switched over to other faiths before coming back to our fold. Thereby he established the supremacy of our faith. correct ? Swami Desikan's pasuram "Thai Magathi varum.......Matrai samayangal pala therindhu" 7. For a person who has not had a Bharanyasam (only of course Samasrayam), can he continue his own way till he comes forward for Baranyasa. It is only with a view to generating interest in the topic and ensure that the message percolates down to the last srivaishnavan, I am raising them. Please forgive me if I am wrong. Adiyen Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan Srirangasri- Your use of is subject to * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The information contained in this message is legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressed individual or entity indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person). It must not be read, copied, disclosed, distributed or used by any person other than the addressee. Unauthorised use, disclosure or copying is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Opinions, conclusions and other information on this message that do not relate to the official business of any of the constituent companies of the SANMAR GROUP shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the Group. If you have received this message in error, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by e-mail. 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Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha -Srimathe Nigamantha Mahadesijkaya Namaha - Srimathe Sri Lakshminarasimha Divya Paduka Sevaka Srivansatakopa Sri Narayana Yateendra Mahadesikaya Namaha Nanmathi VAindha NallOrgalE, Dasasya Vigyapanam. It may be recalled that Nrisimha appeared from the pillar the moment the asura king hit it. Was the instant Avathara to protect his boy devotee Prahladha or to tear to pieces his demonic father? Neither.When Prahladha was thrown into the sea, pushed down the hills, given poison, trampled by elephants, put into the raging fire, or attacked by fierce snakes, though the boy devotee was protected by Sriman Narayana's sankalpa, the Lord himself did not appear on the scene. But surely he manifested at the exact moment when Hiranyaksha smashed the pillar.Why? The reason (given by our elders) is The Lord appeared to keep up the word of His boy devotee who said The Lord is omnipresent (Engumulan Kannan). This one illustration is enough to prove Who the Supreme Being is. Again When Gajendra wailed in agony and called "Aadhimoolame" in a distress signal, Who but Sriman Narayana rushed (dragging even his Vahana Garuda) to the rescue of that elephant king. Aadhimoolame is a term which does not specifically refer to any deity Vishnu, Siva, Brahma or Indra. Because the origin or the original source and cause (Adhimoolam) applied to Sri Maha Vishnu only ie., Sriman Narayana, He alone by virtue of His omnipotency in all respects spontaneously responded to the agonising call of his animal devotee who desired to offer a lotus flower in all sincerety in spite of the torure inflicted by the clutching crocodile. Other deities did not respond at all and were inwardly praising the Supreme Being who went to the rescue of that animal with such a great compassion. All our Acharyas and Azhwars repeatedly glorify the supremacy of Sriman Narayana by quoting these two episodes. Can there still be doubt in the minds of Bhagavathas? Dasan Devanathan >"TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR" >"Krishna Kashyap" >CC: raghav (AT) tasugars (DOT) com, >RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam >Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:39:27 +0530 > >srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha >srImadh varavara munayE namaha > >Dear Members, > >Please pardon me for having accidentally hit the send button before >completing the same. > >AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam >adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan >Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > >srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha >srImadh varavara munayE namaha > >Dear Sri Krishna, > >Thanks for your foreword. Interestingly, today morning I tuned into Jaya TV >and they were telecasting a upanyAsam of Srimadh Azhagiasingar. As if to >clear our doubts , he clearly quoted the pAsuram "kAkkum iyalvinan kaNNa >perumAn..", means , it is kaNNan who has the 'saviour character' by nature. >So why to go to any other devathAs. Additionally he added, even within the >avatArAs of Sriman nArAyaNan, the best saviour is Narasimhan. Not Rama, >not Krishna. The reason is of course, it was only Narasimhan who destroyed >the enemy (HiraNyakasibhu) of His devotee (PrahalAdha) immediately when the >avathArA was made. Rama killed Ravana only at 37 years of age. Even >Krishna, when He killed the sakaTAsuran, He was either 4 or 5 months old as >told by Sri periyAzhwAr "nAlgaLOr nAlainthu thingaLaLavilE, thALai >nimirtthuch chagadatthaich chADippOi..." > >While pondering over this the following pAsuram of ThiruvAimozhi and the >explanation given by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami came into my mind. > >" AdiyAdi agam karainthu, isai > pAdip pAdik kaNNeermalgi - engum > nAdi nAdi narasingA enRu > vAdi vAdum ivvaNudalE" > >Continuation. > >Here, why the AzhwAr does not say " engum nAdi nAdi rAmA or KrishNa". >Because for the same reason as stated above by Srimadh Azhagiasingar, it >was only Narasimha who came to the help of His devotee immediately, true to >word of the same AzhwAr in another pAsuram "... angu appozhudE avan veeya >thOndRiya, en singappirAn perumai ArAyum seernaitthE". > >I hope no more clarification is required after these words from the Jeeyar >swAmi. > >AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam >adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan >Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > > > > ><< pic08723.pcx >> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 Devanathan K [kdevanathan (AT) hotmail (DOT) com]Friday, January 25, 2002 8:03 AMTo: tvv1 (AT) sanmargroup (DOT) com; kkalale1 (AT) san (DOT) rr.comCc: raghav (AT) tasugars (DOT) com; Subject: RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam > Dear sri Devanathan, I like to know the difference in speed at which the Lord protected different devotees : Dhruva : 6 months Prahlada: several years ( since as you mentioned: when he got tortured in different ways the Lord did not appear) Draupadi: probably in a kshanam due to distress call. I am not sure about draupadi's prior efforts or bhakti yogam arjuna: dont know? the elephant gajendra : several yugas - since the devotee in the past janma, who became an elephant due to curse, fought with the crocodile for several yugas according to srimadbhagatam and then got the purva janma jnanam and cried :" adimoolame". others can cry adimoolame even knowing this issue, but I think it depends on the karma of each individual and the real bhakti in that person for the lord to answer right away. Sri krishnapremi maharaj mentions this in his bhagavatam lectures - that it is really the amount of bhakti people have which will make the difference. we say "narayana" even while eating or sitting down. we could even be doing nama sankirtham with all bhakti we have with tears in our eyes ( I mean real feeling in our hearts too) . Though, I am sure there may be a glimpse of assurance provided internally by the Lord by some kind of peace of mind or even some internal revelation of some sort to some lucky devotees, direct pratyaksham of perumal like that of Prahladan or Dhruvan etc. is really a gift for the bhakti yogis of the highest order. No wonder that bhakti margam is so difficult to many and probably easy to the folks who have the realization from purva janma samkaras. Unless one has completely burned all the karmas vision of God will not be continuous. One thing common to all these devotees is that they probably are closer to bhakti yogis rather than prapannas. for example sri Prahlada was asked to meditate for 12000 years more after he experienced the nrisimhavataram, which probably indicates the amount of prarabhdham or some thing which might have been left out. THis brings another question as to what happens to statements such as " bhidyate hridaya granthih chiddhyante sarva samsayah.... tasmin driste paravare" - ie. all knots of doubts are cut asunder when he is seen". I guess Prahladan had no doubts from that point though he lived for 12000 years after seeing Nrisimhar. adiyen Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Krishna You wrote === Quote=== Unless one has completely burned all the karmas vision of God will not be continuous. One thing common to all these devotees is that they probably are closer to bhakti yogis rather than prapannas. for example sri Prahlada was asked to meditate for 12000 years more after he experienced the nrisimhavataram, which probably indicates the amount of prarabhdham or some thing which might have been left out. THis brings another question as to what happens to statements such as " bhidyate hridaya granthih chiddhyante sarva samsayah.... tasmin driste paravare" - ie. all knots of doubts are cut asunder when he is seen". I guess Prahladan had no doubts from that point though he lived for 12000 years after seeing Nrisimhar. =====Unquote==== I have a doubt here. W.r.t to the first line, atleast to my knowledge, I understood that the effects of dOsha, hence karma, will be negated, once the divine grace of Sriman nArAyaNan falls on the jeevAtmA. While there may be a difference of opnion in this aspect between Thenkalais and Vadagalais, as to how it is negated, atleast I understood that the karma has no role to play before His divine grace. The only difference between Thenkalais and Vadagalais is that, in Thenkalai, once the prapanna surrenders completely, His dOsha (again may be interpreted as the karma) becomes bhOgya for Sriman nArAyaNan, while in Vadagalai, He does not look into the prapanna's dOsha if the bharanyAsam is done. So how is that He makes the prapanna wait until the prArabhdha karmAs are completely gotten rid of. If He has to wait for the prapanna to burn down his prArabhdha karmAs and only then He will take him, will it not become a short coming of His 'sarva swAmitvam' (Being the lord of everything and anything), and the 'nirankusa swAthanthriyam'(Unfettered independence) In the same lines as above , in my humble opinion, Sri PrahalAdhA's case must have been just due to His command ( again nirankusa swAthanthriyam) and it has nothing to do with Sri PrahalAdhA's prArabhdha karma. For, just think about the fact that Sri Narasimha, after the HiraNaya vadham, is said to have blessed prahalAdha directly. Can one think that, such a great bhAgavatha, even after getting His diving blessings, will still remain to burn out his karma. Your last three lines exactly mentions the above, in my humble opinion, but may be in a different perspective. Also if the karma is bound to continue with the prapannA even after His divine blessings, then how can we justify Sri poigaiyAzhwAr's pAsuram " kunRanaiya kuRRam seiyyinum guNam koLLum, inRu mudhalAga en nenjE". As is clear, AzhwAr here refers the day of doing surrender, to the words "inRu mudhalAga". So he is clear that, from the day when the jeevAtmA realises the true nature of his, i.e, the sEshatvam, and does prapatti, emberumAn considers all his past deeds (good and bad both) as bhOgya for Him. And from here is there a way back for such a jeevAtmA into this materialistic world? Request you to kindly enlighten me based on my about doubts. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 asmad gurubhyo namah srimathe srivan shatakopa sri vedanta desika yathindra maha desikaya namah srimathe sri lakshmi nrisimha divya paduka sevaka srivan shatakopa sri narayana yathindra maha desikaya namah sri lakshmi nrisimha parabramhane namah Sri Venkatesh wrote: TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR [tvv1] Sunday, January 27, 2002 11:37 PM Krishna Kashyap Cc: Devanathan K; raghav; RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Krishna You wrote === Quote=== Unless one has completely burned all the karmas vision of God will not be continuous. *************************** Let me explain the first question here only. In the next email I will deal with sri prahladan's case. the burning of all karmas is only for a bhakti yogi. this does not apply to prapannas. a number of examples such as jadabharatha, prahlada etc. come under bhakti yogi category. the issue whether sri prahladan asked for moksha immediately is the question which I have to refer to bhagavatam to make sure. I will do that shortly. for a prapanna complete mahavishvasa at the time of prapatti and an appropriate life style till the end of his/her life acts as a vyajam for srimannarayana's grace to completely annihilate all the karmas within this life itself. Hence there is no issue here. adiyen Krishna Kashyap Srirangasri- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Krishna, Thanks for the message. Now it is clear. I am awaiting your posting on Sri PrahalAdhA's case. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh "Krishna Kashyap" "TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR" <kkalale1@san <tvv1, "Krishna Kashyap" .rr.com> <kkalale1 cc: "Devanathan K" 29-01-02 <kdevanathan, 08:56 PM <raghav, <> RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam asmad gurubhyo namah srimathe srivan shatakopa sri vedanta desika yathindra maha desikaya namah srimathe sri lakshmi nrisimha divya paduka sevaka srivan shatakopa sri narayana yathindra maha desikaya namah sri lakshmi nrisimha parabramhane namah Sri Venkatesh wrote: TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR [tvv1] Sunday, January 27, 2002 11:37 PM Krishna Kashyap Cc: Devanathan K; raghav; RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Krishna You wrote === Quote=== Unless one has completely burned all the karmas vision of God will not be continuous. *************************** Let me explain the first question here only. In the next email I will deal with sri prahladan's case. the burning of all karmas is only for a bhakti yogi. this does not apply to prapannas. a number of examples such as jadabharatha, prahlada etc. come under bhakti yogi category. the issue whether sri prahladan asked for moksha immediately is the question which I have to refer to bhagavatam to make sure. I will do that shortly. for a prapanna complete mahavishvasa at the time of prapatti and an appropriate life style till the end of his/her life acts as a vyajam for srimannarayana's grace to completely annihilate all the karmas within this life itself. Hence there is no issue here. adiyen Krishna Kashyap Srirangasri- Your use of is subject to * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The information contained in this message is legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressed individual or entity indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person). It must not be read, copied, disclosed, distributed or used by any person other than the addressee. Unauthorised use, disclosure or copying is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Opinions, conclusions and other information on this message that do not relate to the official business of any of the constituent companies of the SANMAR GROUP shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the Group. If you have received this message in error, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by e-mail. Thank you. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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