Qs relating to Bharanyasam?

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Venkatesh & Kalale ji:

 

It is always good to look at the original works of

Purvacharyas (Upto Swami Desikan for Vadakalais,

and upto VaraVaramuni (Manavalamamuni) for Thenkalais)

 

Are there any works for a seperate ritual called

Bharanyasam by Any purvacharyas (Any work that has

been assigned as Bharanyasam as a seperate ritual)

 

Did any of our purvacharyas perform Bharanyasam?

(As per recorded history or Guruparampara)

 

These will help to get to the truth.

 

Lord, give us the courage to seek the truth and

humility to accept it.

 

I am still a beginner in this, but there is so much

mis-information arising from personal interpretations

in all the lists that is is better to get the works of

purvacharyas for the Truth.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear sri Ramanuja Satagopan,

 

Both Sri Ramanujacharya and Satakopar ( nammalwar) performed bharanyasam as

indicated in works = sharanagati gadyam and thiruvaimozhi= ahalahillen

pasuram respectively.

 

Sri Desikar and Pillai lokacharyar's work explain the ritual aspects in

rahasyatraya saram and tattva-trayam respectively. There are more works

such as prapanna parijata, srivachanabhusanam etc.

 

bharanyasam for direct moksham and not to attain bhaktiyogam is the unique

feature of sri ramanuja sampradayam. This is probably an invention and an

option not provided by other acharyas of any vedantic lineage!!. ( every

other vedantic lineage expects a person to go thru several lives - bahunam

janmanam ante jnanavan maam prapadyate). In fact the support offered by

ahirbudhnya samhita to this effect as an explanation of the "tasman nyasam

esam tapasam atiriktam ahuh" is an excellent third party support by one of

Siva's 11 forms ( Ahirbhudhnya form - supposed to be sattvic). all other

acharyas of vedantic lineage have used the sadvaraka prapatti - or prapatti

to attain bhakti yogam methodology and such an independent support for our

sampradayam is an amazing "peace of mind" giver to sri vaishnava sampradayam

folks. This also means that prior to sri Ramanujacharya some where in

history there was a "secret" doctrine of surrender for moksham - devanam

guhyam = ( even a secret among devas).Hence, I wrote earlier that this is

the greatest contribution of Sri Ramanujacharya.

 

However, prapatti or bharanyasam is both an easy means and a difficult means

(since one has to get mahavishvasam or trust and this trust is not easily

gained - and gained only by anugraham of acharyas and elders and

srimannarayana). One has to be a mumukshu and one has to have tvara -

urgency.

 

 

adiyen Krishna

[Guest guest]

Dear sri Kalale ji

 

> Both Sri Ramanujacharya and Satakopar ( nammalwar)

> performed bharanyasam as indicated in works =

sharanagati gadyam and thiruvaimozhi= ahalahillen

> pasuram respectively.

 

Again whose interpretations are these, are these the

authentic interpretations of Purvacharyas.

 

Did Sri Ramanujacharya call the work Bharanyasa Krama?

and indicate this is the way to perform Bharanyasam.

(what is the explanation as per Swami Desikan)

 

Does Pillai Lokacharya or Swami Desikan state the

above as a seperate Bharanyasam process in their

Exaplanations for the above works.

 

Did Swami Desikan or Pillai Lokacharya and other

purvacharyas perform a seperate Bharanayasam for

themselves? did they perform Acharya Nishtai for other

devotees of theirs?

Did they perform Swanishtai for themselves.....?

 

Is any of this documented or can be substantiated

from their works.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namah

 

The following is not accurate

 

---

> Both Sri Ramanujacharya and Satakopar ( nammalwar)

> performed bharanyasam as

> indicated in works = sharanagati gadyam and

> thiruvaimozhi= ahalahillen

> pasuram respectively.

-----

 

The misleading part is that the present day

"bharanyAsam" is looked upon as a guarantee, whereas

both the above AchAryAs surrendered to the Lord

without any expectation of any guarantees.

 

svAmi nammAzhvAr's surender in the agalakillEn

pAsuram (there are other pAsurams as well where he

surrenders to the Lord) is a mental affirmation of

his desire - obviously, nammAzhvAr did not physically

do "adikkeezh amarndhu pugundhEnE".

 

The other inaccuracy is that there is no credible

record of any AchAryA performing surrender for

the purpose of attaining mOksha, nor is there any

credible evidence to interpret their position as

"bharanyAsam/surrender ==> mOksha".

 

> Sri Desikar and Pillai lokacharyar's work explain

> the ritual aspects in

> rahasyatraya saram and tattva-trayam respectively.

> There are more works

> such as prapanna parijata, srivachanabhusanam etc.

 

svAmi piLLai lOkAchAryA does deal with this in

srIvacanabhUsaNa and other granthAs. And the message

is pretty clear that there can be no linkage between

"our" act of surrendering and the "Lord's" mercy

acting on us.

 

The following excerpt from an answer given by

srI srI srI tridaNdi srIman nArAyaNa rAmAnuja chinna

jIyar svAmi in another list is appropriate in this

context -

 

--begin excerpt---

Jai Srimannarayana!

 

Attaining Mo:ksha, ie., release from the bondage

of Karma in total and reaching a state where there

will only be divine joy & bliss, will happen

only by the unquestionable mercy of God. He has

His own discretion in sanctioning anything He

likes. We need not do anything to attain that. All

that we need to know how to be a "man" in this

world. Take Lord Sri Rama as an example. He lived

like a real man, a Model Man, exemplifying His

whole life. And His life says ' if you live like

a real man, you will be worshiped here in this world

and nether worlds, as well.

 

 

--- end excerpt.

 

Please do not interpre the above as a complete

licence to do whatver one wants to do etc. The key

point is that there can be no causal linkage between

any of our actions and the Lord's mercy taking place.

 

Having said that, if one wants to lead a good life,

there are numerous things prescribed by our

AchAryAs from the sAstrAs, which one ought to follow.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

Varadhan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Asmadgurubhyo namah,

 

Since this topic is going into controversies, let me apologize to the group

to have some how landed in this controversy.

 

LET THIS BE THE LAST POSTING ON THIS SUBJECT. LET US CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

 

I do not wish to react to the points brought out by Sri Varadan. All I

conclude is that different acharyas have expressed different opinions about

these aspects. My advice to Sri Ramanuja Satagopan and others is to take

this topic outside the Internet groups and seek advice from their acharyas.

 

Tad viddhi pranipatena pari prashnena sevaya - attain that knowledge by

saluting the acharyas, asking them questions frequently and serving them

sincerely - bhagawadgita.

 

I dont think Internet is a good medium to learn shastras. It is more for

sharing information on a casual basis. Hence our scriptures state : atma va

are drastavyo srothavyo manthavyo nidhidhyasitavyah - Atman has to be seen

by hearing, contemplating and meditating.

 

My suggestion to the members is to learn from weekend lectures taught by

great widvans who teach from India directly one to one over the conference

bridges arranged by several individuals. I think learning using that method

is 1000 times better than learning on the internet.

 

adiyen Krishna

 

 

tavaradhan [tavaradhan]

Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:06 PM

Krishna Kashyap; Ramanuja Satagopan;

Cc: danp

RE: Qs relating to Bharanyasam?

 

 

srImathE rAmAnujAya namah

 

The following is not accurate

 

---

> Both Sri Ramanujacharya and Satakopar ( nammalwar)

> performed bharanyasam as

> indicated in works = sharanagati gadyam and

> thiruvaimozhi= ahalahillen

> pasuram respectively.

-----

 

The misleading part is that the present day

"bharanyAsam" is looked upon as a guarantee, whereas

both the above AchAryAs surrendered to the Lord

without any expectation of any guarantees.

 

svAmi nammAzhvAr's surender in the agalakillEn

pAsuram (there are other pAsurams as well where he

surrenders to the Lord) is a mental affirmation of

his desire - obviously, nammAzhvAr did not physically

do "adikkeezh amarndhu pugundhEnE".

 

The other inaccuracy is that there is no credible

record of any AchAryA performing surrender for

the purpose of attaining mOksha, nor is there any

credible evidence to interpret their position as

"bharanyAsam/surrender ==> mOksha".

 

> Sri Desikar and Pillai lokacharyar's work explain

> the ritual aspects in

> rahasyatraya saram and tattva-trayam respectively.

> There are more works

> such as prapanna parijata, srivachanabhusanam etc.

 

svAmi piLLai lOkAchAryA does deal with this in

srIvacanabhUsaNa and other granthAs. And the message

is pretty clear that there can be no linkage between

"our" act of surrendering and the "Lord's" mercy

acting on us.

 

The following excerpt from an answer given by

srI srI srI tridaNdi srIman nArAyaNa rAmAnuja chinna

jIyar svAmi in another list is appropriate in this

context -

 

--begin excerpt---

Jai Srimannarayana!

 

Attaining Mo:ksha, ie., release from the bondage

of Karma in total and reaching a state where there

will only be divine joy & bliss, will happen

only by the unquestionable mercy of God. He has

His own discretion in sanctioning anything He

likes. We need not do anything to attain that. All

that we need to know how to be a "man" in this

world. Take Lord Sri Rama as an example. He lived

like a real man, a Model Man, exemplifying His

whole life. And His life says ' if you live like

a real man, you will be worshiped here in this world

and nether worlds, as well.

 

 

--- end excerpt.

 

Please do not interpre the above as a complete

licence to do whatver one wants to do etc. The key

point is that there can be no causal linkage between

any of our actions and the Lord's mercy taking place.

 

Having said that, if one wants to lead a good life,

there are numerous things prescribed by our

AchAryAs from the sAstrAs, which one ought to follow.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

Varadhan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Srirangasri-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Revered Sri Vaishnavas,

I was pained to read about the controversy created over Bharanyasam over the

net. Mahasviswasam - the viswasam that Sriman Narayana will release us from

bondage is one of the most important aspects of Bharanyasa as propounded by

Kavitarkika Simha. In the absence of this Maha Faith there is no basis for our

very esteemed philosophy. I am not a scholar or a pundit in our great

philosophy, but a humble student. I wish that this controversy be put to an end

immediately so that there is harmony among all Sri Vaishnavas. The revered

Acharyas are the pratyaksha deivam for us and let them clarify our doubts and

lead us to the eternal salvation. Srimathe Renga Ramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

Adiyen Srimad Andvan Tiruvadi, R. Raghavan

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[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah:

Dearest Srivaishnavas,

 

This concept prapatti- has been widely discussed again and again. As Sri

Krishna Kalale mentioned we need to follow in accordance with what our

AchArya has said. The difference is in our (lack of ) understanding of Sri

Pillai lokacharyar and Swamy Desikan on this subject. I would like to

mention what Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy spoke in his upanyasam to compare

these two AchAryAs views and how they did not differ but only supplemented

each other.

 

Thenkalai¡¦s view: No need to perform any prapatti as EmperumAn¡¦s

vAthsalyam is not dependent on any of opur Actions. All compassionate,

omnipotent Lord Sriman Narayanan should have His grace flown freely towards

the devotees without expecting an effort on their part. It is He who grants

mOksham (as siddhOpAyam). This unconditioned compassion is called nirhEthuka

krupA, as compared to the sahEthuka krupA or showing compassion in response

to some good act done by the devotee.

 

Vadakalai view: Prapatti (act of self surrender) is to be performed to

please the Lord for His granting mOksham as it is He who mentioned.

 

PerumAL Himself categorically declares :

 

bhaktyA paramayA vA-pi prapattyA vA mahAmathe

prApyoham na anyathA prApyO mama kainkarya lipsubhihi"

 

PerumAL declares that bhakti yOgam and prapatti are the only means

(sAdhyOpAyam, to be adopted by a jIvAtma) for which He will grant moksham

(kainkaryam at Sri vaikuNTham) and for ¡§no other means¡¨ adopted by the

jIvAtmA, will He grant moksham.

 

Now: Sri Krishnan Swamy explained as to how these two are just the same

concept and there is no difference. He gave an example.

 

Bhakti yOgam- a very difficult task that can be performed only by few who

have the strength and qualifications and should be done till last breath.

And prapatti an act of self surrender also can grant Moksham.

 

To go to 12th floor, there are two ways:

 

1. Climb the steps one by one till 12th floor and for this, you need to be

able, strong and have determination to complete the full course (not stop in

between). If you stop, never mind. Next birth again start from there to

reach 12th floor.

2. Other way is to take a lift. For this, we need to make NO EFFORTS.

 

The lift automatically takes you to 12th floor. No efforts needed. Is it

wrong ? No. ¡V This is thenkalai view.

 

You need not have to feel bad, that you can not climb because you are not

qualified and strong. All that you need to do is to simply step inside

press the button ¡§12¡¨ It takes you straight. No worries. Have complete

faith that the lift will take you there where you wish to go. Is there

anything wrong? No. ¡V This is vadakalai¡¦s view.

 

Is there any difference ion the two above paragraphs? No. It is our lack of

understanding Both these AchAryas have said that prapatti is required. The

pressing of button does not lead us to 12th floor. It is the Lift. But it

requires a small act of entering inside and press.

 

As Swami Sri Pillai Lokacharya so eloquently puts it, "The Lord's thoughts

[of our welfare] are always with us." (adu dAn eppOdum uNDu -- SrI vacana

bhUshaNam / svb 67). But his desire to give the jIva liberation from ajnAna

can only bear fruit if the jIva changes its way of thinking -- (adu

phalippadu ivan ninaivu mArinAl -- svb 68). For forcing a gift upon someone,

when that person does not desire it, or is not ready to receive it, is no

gift at all.

 

The main point here is: the denial of human effort as a requisite condition

of redmpetion would amount to arbitrariness on the part of Sriman Narayanan.

In other words, if the Lord were to release an individual from bondage

without any endeavour on his part, the latter should have become free of all

these births long ago. If it be said that the release takes place later at a

particular point of time due to the mere krupA of the Lord and the mere

pleasure of the Lord, He would be inevitably subject to large amount of

arbitrariness and cruelty. He should have taken the entire beings to the

Paramapadham at one stroke. Or He is cruel and partial; biased.

 

In order to avoid this embarrassment and criticism, God showers His grace

only on those who become qualified for it by observing the prescribed

sadhana sanctioned by ssasthrAs. It does not flow automatically to one who

is inactive and paasive.

 

The bhakti Yopgam or prapatti to be observed by the aspirant of mOksham is

only a vyAja (excuse) or pretext for God to shower his grace. He is ever

willing and ready. Even such opportunities to do prapatti and obsrve a

spiritual discipline to earn God¡¦s grace are actually provided by the Lord

Himself. They are not granted arbitrarily to few, but on the contrary they

are given to those in response to some smallest deed (sukrutham) or good act

performed even unintentionally either in the previous births or in the

current life.

 

As a universal principle, God¡¦s grace comes forth necessarily in response

to one¡¦s karma, or else, He (the Lord) would be subject to the charge of

discrimination).

 

Also, The jIvan being dependent on the Lord (and the jnAnam of the same) as

a tool in the hands of God is also mentioned here for non -performance of

prapatti. It looks inappropriate that an individual should plead before God

for protection and adopt for this purpose an act (Sadhana) as if rendering

some service in return for a reward. As a subservient being, one has no

right to make an effort is the argument against performance of prapatti.

 

This is based on the misconception of the dependence of the jiVA

(paarathanthrya). The jivan though is dependent on the Lord is also being

blessed by the Lord with karthruthvam (doer ship), bhOgthruthvam

(enjoyership) and jnAthruthvam (knowership). He is an agent for action

(kartA). As an agent, he has freedom to function. That is the very purpose

of having us as jIva. Else, the commands of sacred text would be

meaningless. Thus, the act of self surrender done in accordance with

saasthrAs, is not inappropriate. Though the Supreme Lord regards the jIvA as

His own and knows its needs (like a mother towards the infant), He has to

look forward to some excuse for taking a special route for this darling

child of His (i.e usļ This is only not to have Him exposed to arbitrariness

in front of our siblingsļ Seshathva or dependence of an individual on God

truly implies that he would have been a non entity but for the Lord, that he

possesses nothing of His own other than what has been endowed to him by God

and that he does nothing for himself except for the pleasure of the Lord

Sriya: Pathi sriman Narayanan.

 

Swamy desikan says in nyAsa dasakam:

 

swAmin svasEsham svavasam svabharathvEna nirbharam;

svadattha svadhiyaa svaartham svasmin nyasyasi maam svayam

 

Oh Lord.. I am your dependent (sva sEsha); I am controlled by You (sva

vasam); You have endowed with the capacity to think; You have enabled me to

know Your nature; You YOUSELF have made me surrender to You for Your own

pleasure with the responsibility of protecting it and getting rid of that

burden from me. ¡§.

 

What a beautiful verse that coveys all that needs to be conveyed!

Please forgive me for any errors and mistakes. They are due to adiyEn¡¦s

lack of understanding. Anything good the credit goes to Acharyas¡¦ works and

articles /books by scholars.

 

AchAryan ThiruvadigaLE SaraNam

Regards

Namo Narayana

aDiyEn

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

As part of my quest to understand the nuances behind the working of

the human body I attended a journal club organized by the zzzzz

department. The meeting went on well until an idividual wanted to

know how exactly a protein secreted in the cytoplasm found its way

into the Mitochondria – the powerhouse. There are two schools of

thought : clutching and pulling. This individual was familiar with

both the schools but he just wanted to initiate a discussion

(intentionally or unintentionally). And that opened the pandoras box!!

 

The cell biologists said that based on established PramaNams

(experiments done, published/cited in Nature/Science/Cell ...., and

individuals awarded with Nobel Prizes) it has got to be xxxx. They

went on and said that to confirm this you got to talk to your bosses

and really read up lots and lots of litterature.

 

The biochemists didnt agree to this and counter argued and presented

their established PranaNams (equally well published/cited in Nature

and acknowledged with Nobel Prizes) and were quite convinced that its

nonsensical to think xxxx is the mechanism when yyyy is obvious.

 

What started as a genuine fact finding exercise gradually turned

ugly. Some of the members failed to see that they are amidst a large

gathering and hence need some decorum. Instead they started asking

questions like "prove to ME", "show ME", "convince ME" as if he is

the monarch of the entire populace.

 

While adiyEn was caught in the cross fire something stuck me. How

fortunate this ignorant soul is in that his little protein that wants

to reach the Mitochondria and keep him alive is doing its duty

irrespective of whether he knew how it accomplished it or what others

swear is the only way by which it would do it.

 

I wonder whether attending these meetings would help me to make the

protein transport more efficient. I dont think so.

 

On leaving the meeting, I asked yet another passive audience if he

understood why they were so ugly in defending their theory. He

laughed at me and said "Simple. Poverty. The fear of loosing their

grant and potential doctoral students. If these people are really

after science they would collaborate more closely and sincerely and

design drugs that would not have the "bite a pill and get a dozen

side effects for free" consequence.

 

I rest.

adiyEn

R.Srinivasan

 

This Eye is precious protect it!!

This I is dangerous destroy it!!!

[Guest guest]

Dear Swamins,

Swami Desikan has given a fine set of rules for a debater to argue his point

of view in philosophy. These are golden rules that will lead us on the

righteous path.

 

Let us remember where arguments end, abuses begin. This is

for the unrighteous ones.

 

What is the purpose of these healthy discussions?

Are they not to guide us properly on the spiritual path and for uncondiional

love towards Sriman Narayana.

 

"Prayer is from the heart where God resides and not from the head where

doctrines and doubts clash" is a wise saying.

 

Also When the head bows, it meets the heart in supplication in token of

gratefulness to the Lord in the heart for taking the responsibility of

protection. If the head decides not to bend, that decision will be futile,

for a day may come when the head has to bend in shame. Which is better? -

bending the head in humility or bending the head in humiliation.

 

Let us therefore continue to discuss on decent lines as has been made clear by

'Adiyaen' Swami.

Pardon this Dasan for his impertinence.

Sarve Jana Sukhino Bhavantu.

Dasan

Devanathan