Re :RE: Qs relating to Bharanyasam?

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr Varadhan

I endorse Mr Haris statement.Kindly give

ur intellectual reply

Regards

Adiyen

Jayaraman.

 

 

--- "M.S.HARI Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari"

<mshari wrote:

> Dear SrI Varadhan,

>

> You wrote:

> >The following is not accurate

> ...

> > The misleading part is that the present day

> > "bharanyAsam" is looked upon as a guarantee,

> whereas

> > both the above AchAryAs surrendered to the Lord

> > without any expectation of any guarantees.

>

> I request you to kindly let me know the pramANAm for

> you

> to call bharanyAsam as a present day development.

> First of all,

> may I request you to kindly tell me your

> comprehension of the

> term "bharanyAsam" in SrI VaishNavam? What is the

> present

> day "bharanyAsam"?

>

> You wrote:

> > The other inaccuracy is that there is no credible

> > record of any AchAryA performing surrender for

> > the purpose of attaining mOksha, nor is there any

> > credible evidence to interpret their position as

> > "bharanyAsam/surrender ==> mOksha".

>

> This seems to be your personal opinion. I request

> you to kindly let me know what grantams of

> pUrvAchAryas

> you have studied in this context in traditional

> kAlashEpams

> at the feet of ubhaya vEdAnta vidwAns. I will be

> grateful

> if you share with me about the details of your

> studies

> regarding prastAna trayam.

>

> You wrote:

> > svAmi piLLai lOkAchAryA does deal with this in

> > srIvacanabhUsaNa and other granthAs. And the

> message

> > is pretty clear that there can be no linkage

> between

> > "our" act of surrendering and the "Lord's" mercy

> > acting on us.

>

> Could you please explain the following in the

> context of

> your above words?

> 1. Why then there should be vidhi & nishEda vidhi

> vAkyams

> in SAstra?

> 2. Why there are upAsanas prescribed in upanishads?

> 3. Why is prapatti prescribed to be done in SAstra?

> 4. If there is no linkage between "so calledour"

> act

> (of surrendering) and the "Lord's" mercy acting on

> us,

> then why "few" gets HIS mercy and why "others" are

> in

> samsAram? If it is mere "nirhEtuka krupA", then is

> the

> Lord partial? Is he not having krupA? What is then

> krupA?

> What is His vAtsalyam?

> 4. Is your same logic holding good even if "so

> calledour"

> act of nishidhda-karmAnushTAnam has no linkage with

> Lord's

> nigraha sankalpam?

> 5. Please let me know your ideas about the

> pAratantriyam of jeevan,

> the swAtantriyam of Lord , sAtvika-tyAgam, Jeeva's

> pratama pravruti,

> Lord's mercy etc?

> 6. Please let me know the differences between

> sAdhyOpAyam and

> sidhdOpAyam.

>

> You wrote:

> > His own discretion in sanctioning anything He

> > likes. We need not do anything to attain that. All

> > that we need to know how to be a "man" in this

> > world. Take Lord Sri Rama as an example. He lived

> > like a real man, a Model Man, exemplifying His

> > whole life. And His life says ' if you live like

> > a real man, you will be worshiped here in this

> world

> > and nether worlds, as well.

>

> Well. Is it possible for an ordinary man to live

> like SrI rAma?

> Should one attempt to live like that? If no action

> of jeeva

> has linkage to Lord's mercy, what is meaning of

> "attempting"

> to live like this or anything? Ok. If one attempts

> to live or lives like

> SrI rAma, then will the Lord show mercy on that

> Jeeva? If so,

> then is it not contradicting your earlier statement?

>

> If there is an point that mere non-performance

> (nivruthi) of SAdhyOpAyam

> (here bhakti as told in upanishads) is prapatti and

> if one should not

> do anything to get the mercy of the Lord, then is it

> not possible to

> consider this non-performance as reason (from

> jeeva's side) to

> be the cause for Lord's mercy? Then are these

> consistent? Is there

> a nishEda vidhi in SAstra like "do not do bhakti;",

> "do not do bharanyAsam"? Is there any SAstra

> pramANam to

> brand the performance of sAdyOpAyam

> (bhakti/bharanyAsam)

> as jeeva-swarUpa-virudhdam (against jeeva's

> swarUpam)?

>

> You wrote:

> > Please do not interpre the above as a complete

> > licence to do whatver one wants to do etc. The key

> > point is that there can be no causal linkage

> between

> > any of our actions and the Lord's mercy taking

> place.

>

> Well, if you do not allow us to consider this as

> complete

> license, then upto what limit you give us license?

> What is

> the reason behind that "lesser-limit" license if at

> all there

> is one? Are you merely writing these things based on

> anumAnams?

> Even if one lives as per standards (what ever it may

> be),

> if his actions and the Lord's mercy have no linkage,

> then

> what benefit he gets? If there is some benefit, then

> Lord's mercy

> gets linked with jeevan's action. If there are no

> benefits (as you

> say there is no linkage between jeevan's actions and

> Lord's mercy)

> then what is the purpose of your "licensed" life?

> What difference it

> makes if one leads a chAruvAka life or something

> else? Please

> explain these from a layman point of view.

>

> Please substantiate your points (point to point)

> with valid

> authentic pramANAms that sAdhyOpAya-anushTAnam

> (bhakthi & bharanyAsam)

> must not be done to get Lord's mercy. Please

> substantiate your points with

> valid authentic pramANAms that "there can be no

> causal linkage between

> any of our actions and the Lord's mercy taking

> place."

> Before that, please tell me your comprehension

> of upAsana (bhakti) and bharanyAsam (sAnga

> prapadanam).

>

> > Having said that, if one wants to lead a good

> life,

> > there are numerous things prescribed by our

> > AchAryAs from the sAstrAs, which one ought to

> follow.

>

> The same question still remains. I do not think that

> you will give a

> mere-emotional reply. I will be grateful if you

> give me an intellectual

> reply with appropriate mixture of emotions in it. I

> am sure that on

> reading my response, you would have clearly

> comprehended my lack of

> knowledge in these subjects. Please pardon me for my

> ignorance.

> Expecting your knowledgeable reply.

>

> Thanks & Regards

> adiyEn,

> M.S.HARI rAmAnuja dAsan (mshari)

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear SrI Varadhan,

 

You wrote:

>The following is not accurate

....

> The misleading part is that the present day

> "bharanyAsam" is looked upon as a guarantee, whereas

> both the above AchAryAs surrendered to the Lord

> without any expectation of any guarantees.

 

I request you to kindly let me know the pramANAm for you

to call bharanyAsam as a present day development. First of all,

may I request you to kindly tell me your comprehension of the

term "bharanyAsam" in SrI VaishNavam? What is the present

day "bharanyAsam"?

 

You wrote:

> The other inaccuracy is that there is no credible

> record of any AchAryA performing surrender for

> the purpose of attaining mOksha, nor is there any

> credible evidence to interpret their position as

> "bharanyAsam/surrender ==> mOksha".

 

This seems to be your personal opinion. I request

you to kindly let me know what grantams of pUrvAchAryas

you have studied in this context in traditional kAlashEpams

at the feet of ubhaya vEdAnta vidwAns. I will be grateful

if you share with me about the details of your studies

regarding prastAna trayam.

 

You wrote:

> svAmi piLLai lOkAchAryA does deal with this in

> srIvacanabhUsaNa and other granthAs. And the message

> is pretty clear that there can be no linkage between

> "our" act of surrendering and the "Lord's" mercy

> acting on us.

 

Could you please explain the following in the context of

your above words?

1. Why then there should be vidhi & nishEda vidhi vAkyams

in SAstra?

2. Why there are upAsanas prescribed in upanishads?

3. Why is prapatti prescribed to be done in SAstra?

4. If there is no linkage between "so calledour" act

(of surrendering) and the "Lord's" mercy acting on us,

then why "few" gets HIS mercy and why "others" are in

samsAram? If it is mere "nirhEtuka krupA", then is the

Lord partial? Is he not having krupA? What is then krupA?

What is His vAtsalyam?

4. Is your same logic holding good even if "so calledour"

act of nishidhda-karmAnushTAnam has no linkage with Lord's

nigraha sankalpam?

5. Please let me know your ideas about the pAratantriyam of jeevan,

the swAtantriyam of Lord , sAtvika-tyAgam, Jeeva's pratama pravruti,

Lord's mercy etc?

6. Please let me know the differences between sAdhyOpAyam and

sidhdOpAyam.

 

You wrote:

> His own discretion in sanctioning anything He

> likes. We need not do anything to attain that. All

> that we need to know how to be a "man" in this

> world. Take Lord Sri Rama as an example. He lived

> like a real man, a Model Man, exemplifying His

> whole life. And His life says ' if you live like

> a real man, you will be worshiped here in this world

> and nether worlds, as well.

 

Well. Is it possible for an ordinary man to live like SrI rAma?

Should one attempt to live like that? If no action of jeeva

has linkage to Lord's mercy, what is meaning of "attempting"

to live like this or anything? Ok. If one attempts to live or lives like

SrI rAma, then will the Lord show mercy on that Jeeva? If so,

then is it not contradicting your earlier statement?

 

If there is an point that mere non-performance (nivruthi) of SAdhyOpAyam

(here bhakti as told in upanishads) is prapatti and if one should not

do anything to get the mercy of the Lord, then is it not possible to

consider this non-performance as reason (from jeeva's side) to

be the cause for Lord's mercy? Then are these consistent? Is there

a nishEda vidhi in SAstra like "do not do bhakti;",

"do not do bharanyAsam"? Is there any SAstra pramANam to

brand the performance of sAdyOpAyam (bhakti/bharanyAsam)

as jeeva-swarUpa-virudhdam (against jeeva's swarUpam)?

 

You wrote:

> Please do not interpre the above as a complete

> licence to do whatver one wants to do etc. The key

> point is that there can be no causal linkage between

> any of our actions and the Lord's mercy taking place.

 

Well, if you do not allow us to consider this as complete

license, then upto what limit you give us license? What is

the reason behind that "lesser-limit" license if at all there

is one? Are you merely writing these things based on anumAnams?

Even if one lives as per standards (what ever it may be),

if his actions and the Lord's mercy have no linkage, then

what benefit he gets? If there is some benefit, then Lord's mercy

gets linked with jeevan's action. If there are no benefits (as you

say there is no linkage between jeevan's actions and Lord's mercy)

then what is the purpose of your "licensed" life? What difference it

makes if one leads a chAruvAka life or something else? Please

explain these from a layman point of view.

 

Please substantiate your points (point to point) with valid

authentic pramANAms that sAdhyOpAya-anushTAnam (bhakthi & bharanyAsam)

must not be done to get Lord's mercy. Please substantiate your points with

valid authentic pramANAms that "there can be no causal linkage between

any of our actions and the Lord's mercy taking place."

Before that, please tell me your comprehension

of upAsana (bhakti) and bharanyAsam (sAnga prapadanam).

 

> Having said that, if one wants to lead a good life,

> there are numerous things prescribed by our

> AchAryAs from the sAstrAs, which one ought to follow.

 

The same question still remains. I do not think that you will give a

mere-emotional reply. I will be grateful if you give me an intellectual

reply with appropriate mixture of emotions in it. I am sure that on

reading my response, you would have clearly comprehended my lack of

knowledge in these subjects. Please pardon me for my ignorance.

Expecting your knowledgeable reply.

 

Thanks & Regards

adiyEn,

M.S.HARI rAmAnuja dAsan (mshari)