Guest guest Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 Vignapanam, With the divine blessings of Swami Desika and great acharyas I shall attempt to respond to this query. At the outset let me state that in this area between 'samashti srishti' and 'vyshti srishti' there are few complicated questions and partial answers. The debate is on. The debate centers around the 'samgna-moorthy-klipti adhikaranam' of Sri Bhashya. Some of the interesting questions are: 1. There is no sareera (body) in the pralayavasta (Sadeva Aseeth, Ekameva Asseeth, Adviteeyameva Aseeth). Even in the worldy days, when the sould leaves the 'stoola sareera' (the body we have now), it goes out ONLY with 'sookshma sareera'. When we say 'asareera' we mean there is no stoola sareera but it has sookshma sareera. Even when we get rid of the last stoola sareera the sookshma sareerra lasts till the liberated jevva reaches 'viraja' river. If so, as per the Upanishad "tAvadeva chiram. yavat na vimokshya". meaning when the body goes moksha is attained/automatic. In pralaya state there is no sookshma sareera also. Then why Jiva is still not liberated. Here is the answer: even if the karmakruta sareeram is not there...the root cause for that 'karma' is there. kAranam asti...kAryam nasti. 2. When Eswara decides to have the srishti..He creates 24 tatvas from moola prakruti, separates 25th jeeva tatva. Then creates 'chaturmukha Brahma' (samashti jeeva). This is called samashti srishti which Sriman Narayana himself does. Then thro C.Brahma 'anena jeevena atmana anupravisya nama roope vyakaravani' all other things happens (dhada yatha poorvam akalpayat). In the above area there are two schools of thought regarding the first action 'prthama pravirthi': 2.1. In the jeeva srishti (jeeva getting the body) the jeeva himself does the action without the help of Paramatma and subsequently Paramatma takes on according to the good/bad first action of jeeva. And karma continues. This is the view of the greatest acharya 'srutaprakasikachar'. This acharya goes by 'pratama pravirthim avalambya'. 2.2 swami Desika differs here. If we accept 2.1 then the theory that 'all' actions are by Paratmatama and He is sarva-nyanta will have to have an exception. This is a catch-22 problem. If we accept that Paramatma gives the first body then how He can have 'vishama sridhti'. On the other side we need to have an exception to His 'sarva niyantrutvam' have to have an exception. For that Swami Desika interprets the Bhashyasukti as 'poorva pravirthim avalambya'- meaning Paramatma start where the jeeva left earlier. karma is there always. So He goes by the rule book (laid by him) but at the same time He decides which page he needs to activate. Now answers to your question: Q: "So please leave me in this state of asat" A: There is no option for Jeeva..As per 'kala' pralaya state will come to a precise end and like wise it will start (kala: tatra vai prbhu:). Assume there is a curfew and you are under sec 44 within the house for 30 days..you will fed up as you are neither living nor dead..what will you do..you will some how venture out and attempt to do some portion of your 'normal routine'. You will also take risk and think 'come what may..instead living at home I can as well venture out and die as well'. 'pralaya avastha' is not what you think that you are happily sleeping in your bed room with absolutely no committment! Q: "Inspite of this if God creates a body for the jiva, then it means He "DESIRES" to have leela.": A: big YES. Who can question him. "Leelavttu kaivalyam" (brahma sutram). Kaivalyam means 'only for enjoyment'. Yes He desires to have leela. stop it if you can!! :-) Q: "Also,he wants the jiva to be liberated AGAINST the jiva's wishes which is not true according to Swami Desikan's sampradayam.". A: Nothing goes as per Jeeva's wish. everything goes as per his karma (vaishamya-nairgrnye na sapekshatvat (brhma sutram): means 'karmasapekshtvat' - as per the karma). Swami desika had only said that 'if you don't do either bhakthi yoga or prapatti you will not attain moksha' (Prbhannath anyesham nadisati mukundo nijapadam - Rahasyatrayasara sloka). Also, liberation means denouncing the 'body' permanently (punya or papa a/c becomes nil)..and not without body as in the pralaya state. (In fact God is doing only as per jeeva's wish. He has created many opportunities for the jeeva to liberate..but we are saying nothing doing ...what He has done..He only failed in his mission..'na vayulunde...theekkalikuch chellum vagai' - namlavar) With best of my understanding I have stated these. All right things here are purely due to the blessings of my acharyas and wrong things are purely due to my 'ajnanam'. Kindly check with other scholars and proceed. sadan sridharan Ram Anbil [Ramanbil] Sunday, November 10, 2002 11:10 PM Srirangasri Fwd: Re: On God?s desire. Dear Bhagavatas: Here is another query on the subject from Sri Srikanth. Dasoham Anbil Ramaswamy ================================================== >"Srikanth H.R." <hrsriks >Ram Anbil <Ramanbil >Re: On God's desire. >Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:53:06 -0800 (PST) > > >Respected/Dear Sri Anbil Swamin, > >My name is Srikanth, residing in Bangalore. >I want to ask one more question here supporting >the original question on God's desire. >But I will go by Swami Desikan's sampradayam. >A few members in the list may not agree with it. >Hence I am writing to you personally. Please >see if it is ok to post it on the lists. You can >also make deletions wherever you deem fit. > >I want to mention first that i am a novice in >sastric matters. All I know is that SrimanNarayana >is Supreme and we all should dedicate our lives to >Him. > >Here is my question. > >At the beginning of creation, according to my >understanding, everything (cit and acit) was a >bundle without any forms/shapes (asat). Now SriHari >gave bodies to all jivas and gave them a chance to >reach him. This is out of His infinite mercy. >Now according to our sampradayam, unless a jiva >"WILLS" for Him, Srihari will not grant his grace. >This is the concept of Sahetuka+nirhetuka krupa. >Please correct me if I am wrong. With this in mind, >a jiva can argue thus.. > >"Oh God, I do not will to come to you. Leave me >as this bundle (asat) as I am. I do not want a >body because even if you give me a body, i will >enjoy earthly pleasures as I have no desire to >reach you. So you being omniscient, can see that >I will merely suffer on earth if you give me a >body. So please leave me in this state of asat". > >Inspite of this if God creates a body for the jiva, >then it means He "DESIRES" to have leela. Also, >he wants the jiva to be liberated AGAINST the jiva's >wishes which is not true according to Swami Desikan's >sampradayam. > >Please enlighten me. Even if I donot understand this >doubt, I will continue to try and dedicate my >life to SriHari and our Acharya-Azhwars. :-) >This is a question arising out of curiosity and >nothing else. > >Swami Desikan tiruvadigale saranam, >dasan, >Srikanth > > > >U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos >http://launch./u2 _______________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Srirangasri- Your use of is subject to ---------- This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or any action taken in reliance on this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. 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