OP Gupta's article /: Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

[Guest guest]

May I know how many of US know Vedas and Vedic Principles, and is that the

yardstick to measure depth of ones own understanding. Guptas point as well

as other points in the group should be taken as a views of commoners and not

Vedic Pundits, those commoners also follows of Hindu Dharma. You may claim

that there is not such thing as Hinduism ( yes, I agree with you), but in

our Birth Certificate and Marriage certificate, majority Indians, who are

Hindus don't say " vedic age" or Sanatha Dharma.,, so let us kindly focus on

the issue as Hinduism AKA ..Vedic Principles or Sanathana Dharma.

 

Certainly, just by doing Sandhyavandanam alone ONE does not become a

follower of Hindu Dharma or Vedic Priciple, that is a short sighted view,

Bhakti and Love could be a part and parcel of a Ritual, but they are

certainly above Rituals. Our own Alwars and Nayarnmars are elevated to

their pinnacle becoz of the Bhakti and love for God and not for the Rituals.

 

So, I totally disagree with your Shri. Ramachandran that you have to enjoy

the love of Bhakti and Love for God and not judge one by doing a certain

ritualistic process. I certainly feel that in today's lifestyle an Most of

those follow Sandhyavandam are doing with a feeling of not to be left

alone, and branded as not following their DUTY but certainly they don't

have the time like our elders who had all the time and contenment. and far

less materialistic commitments.

 

 

Namaskarams

 

Swathi

 

 

-

<s.ramachandran

Raman Kannan <rrfamily; <bhakti-list>;

sampath kumar <sampathkumar_2000;

<parakalamatham>; <sv-general>

Cc: alambda <alambda; <SrirangaSri>;

<shobha.srinivasan; <Visu9; Narasimhan KC

<mythkc; Shobha Subramaniam <shobha03

Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:11 PM

OP Gupta's article /: Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

 

 

>

> Hope all pardon the writer, but almost everyone - including OP Gupta -

> seems to nurse a common fallacy about basic concepts and priciples.

>

> 1. Coining words like Hinduism itself is meaningless. The Vedic structure

> prevails over the entire universe/cosmos, nay it extends to the heavens,

> down below in the deepest bowels of the earth at her nadir.

>

> 2. The Vedic principles and sound forms do not refer to Caste etc. and

> these are human creations which has been historically misused by all.

> Conscious effort has to be made by all in refraining to put this word into

> use - hope everyone does not misunderstand this writer's use in para 2

> here, but this is just to put an end to this frequent refence

>

> 3. As rightly mentioned by Shri Raman Kannan, numbers /statistics are

> useless. Similarly the references to the word "Indian " etc. should be

> also avoided in view of the hard fact that Vedic principles are universal

> and eternal applicability to man, birds, animals, stones, wind, sky, fire

> etc.

>

> 4.By the same reasoning, references to religion/Hindu religion, "Our"

> religion etc. should also be avoided.

>

> All the above words in various forms can be summed up tersly as "Vedic

> principles".

>

> 5. With due apologies, coming to Ms Swati's (from Hongkong under ID

Alambda

> one presumes) comments on 'our community", "family planning"," 2-3

> children > per hindu family", are all frankly likely to create further

> confusion in that there is no such thing as "hindu family". As per the

> Vedic principles, everything is one. Full stop. It is 'We all'. The 'We'

> including animals, insects, birds, microbes and the tree and flower and

> seeds.

>

> Further it is somewhat limited to think in terms of

>

> "one who is not proud of one's religion can very proud of

> their own

> religion can also be a> catalyst to its down fall, it

> need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from

> > the face of the earth"

>

> Anyone fully comprehending the Vedic principles will at once first realize

> that there is nothing to be proud about. This is a way, maybe the only

> right way, of living and thats it. This is not a religion which one can be

> a catalyst etc. ...and therefore the question of erased from the face of

> the earth does not arise. Perhaps Hindusim may be erased but Vedic

> principles cannot be, because they are without beginning and end....

>

> Further her 'Reality' that we should work as a community and not

> individually etc. is again not a reality. Reality is the Vedic

principles.

> Entites do not matter.

>

> Finally, coming to Shri Gupta's exposition in his so-called article, is

> totally baseless and a waste of time, effort. It is impossibe to fathom

> the Vedic principles whereas he has taken a finite small sample, examples

> from the Rgveda etc. to drive home a point, not understanding that this is

> just a minutest particle in the whole ocean of the Vedas. The Vedas abound

> in ironical, allogerical, illogical and mysterious commands/references,

> prayers, praise, instructions, songs, principles, rules, procedures. It

is

> deeper than the deepest oceans and equally ancient. So to pluck a very

very

> limited part and derive an interpretation is totally disturbed

channelising

> of energies.

>

> To put the whole concern into perspective, if at all, of any of the

various

> authors, commentators and writers below, if they are real proponents of

the

> Vedic principles, do they do the Sandhyavandanam daily 3 times without

> fail? if not, none are eligible to even contemplate on the matters

> mentioned. If yes, then too there is no need to contemplate on these

> because one could have some answers in due course.

>

> Trust everyone takes this in the proper spirit it is written and not as

> something which is written to hurt feelings or critisize just for the

sake.

>

> Regards

Raman Kannan

> <rrfamily (AT) (DOT) alambda

<alambda

> com> cc:

SrirangaSri

> Re:

Re: Vedas, Hindu scriptures

> 02/05/03 08:55 prohibit casteism

> PM

Swamin

>

> Getting alarmed does not help. Hyperbole does not help

> either.

> Hinduism cannot ever die. If there is one

> good confirming vedic practioner our way of life

> will survive.

>

> The fact that the number of hindus increased

> from 600 MILL to 800 MILL while say for example

> all other denominations increased from 100 MILL

> to 300 MILL the percentages have fallen behind.

> 600/700 roughly 86%

> to 800/1100 roughly 73%

> so we should not fall for the statistician trick

> present the same set of facts using different norms

> and inapplicable and imply something very drastic.

>

> In the last 50 years population has increased

> and the rate of growth has decreased.

>

> This is what we want. Why should we be alarmed?

>

> Now the decadence in Indian mind is indeed alaraming.

> it is all selfish,

> going after money that will not

> follow us one minute when we are dead...

> this is all very alarming..

> ignoring temples,

> not caring for someone who is suffering

> and saying that this is all due to caste is alarming.

> Is it castes that created the difference.

> Is it not the practioners who ill-treated

> certain other castes.

> mindless and politicians without a conscious

> used it to their benefit. We cannot complain about

> them either.

>

> our religion with caste is a superior way of living.

> religion without ritual is a brain without a body.

> religion without philosophy is a body without brain.

> So our religion has all of this and it is complete.

> We should be proud to understand and follow to

> the fullest extent. There is no room for thinking

> less of another gender or another person.

> This is not allowed. Anyone who finds a difference

> in others is not aware of Gita and its basic

> tenents.

>

> The author instead of stating the facts as it is

> tries to invect useless and misleading numbers

> in the beginning and then tries to ascribe

> it to caste which is at best an irrelevant factor.

> Indian mind is corrupt today including IAS/IFS

> and all the govt bureacracies. adiyen is first line.

> We need to change fundamentally.

> What good is it if we cannot lay proper road?

> that is where we are... We are also very egotistical

> we cannot sit down and think about our problems aloud

> without becoming emotional about it.

> I can bet that many reading this email will be

> inflamed and allow my limitations to ruin their

> afternoon getting mad and angry.

> They cannot realize I am on the same side as anyone

> else who loves and adores and respects our

> way of life, going back to gokulum.

> adiyen

> RK

>

> --- alambda <alambda wrote:

> > Dear Shri Raman,

> >

> > may I know why and how you say there is no reason to

> > be alarmed????

> > the percentage

> > of Hindu's may be very high comparing to other

> > communities as you put it,

> > but the questions should be also how many Hindus

> > really knows values of

> > Sanathana Dharma, one way not knowing much about our

> > own faith can also

> > contribute to subject here.

> >

> > In the real sense one does not become a Hindu by

> > just being born in a Hindu

> > family, but knowing about the principle of Hinduism

> > (Sanathana Dharma) and

> > try to uphold its principles and if need be share it

> > with other communities.

> > ( I am not asking our guys to go out and convert

> > others like Christians and

> > Islam does)

> >

> > Gupta's statement can also be taken in different

> > sense as one who is not

> > very proud of their own religion can also be a

> > catalyst to its down fall, it

> > need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from

> > the face of the earth,

> > that is not going to happen, but inspite of 1

> > billion people being Hindus

> > and sheer 20-30 million being Jews, we don't need to

> > state who hold better

> > power/saying in the world affairs.

> >

> > So, Mr. Gupta's article should not be thrown into a

> > back burner, but

> > carefully analysed and necessary steps should be

> > taken.

> >

> > Family Planning: we can certainly have 2-3 children

> > per hindu family and

> > have faith that we can certainly provide for their

> > betterment, if not too

> > much materialisic gain. That confidence will come

> > only if there are enough

> > institurion/hospital, exclusively for Hindus, run by

> > Hindu communities, that

> > is the assurance that Hindu Childrens of the future

> > will be taken care.

> > These activities are very common in India for

> > Islamic childrens, and

> > Christians are equally supportive to their own

> > community. One need to see

> > the Nadar Christian community for this, so, they

> > have no worries making more

> > childrens, easily 5 per family. Reality is we don't

> > talk as a community but

> > as an individual, Let us act as a community and you

> > can count my

> > participation in any level. For sure, we have to

> > abandon the Casteism and

> > all Hindus are childrens of same Vedic Faith.

> >

> > hari om

> >

> > Swathi

> > Hong Kong

> >

> > -

> > Raman Kannan <rrfamily

> > GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> > <shobha.srinivasan; <>

> > Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:26 AM

> > Re: Re: Vedas, Hindu

> > scriptures prohibit casteism

> >

> >

> > > There is a serious flaw in the argument advanced

> > > by this article.

> > > The % will go down as the count goes up

> > > in other communities.

> > > The number of people who believe in hinduisim

> > > has not gone down as this article would suggest.

> > >

> > > The total number of people has not remained

> > constant.

> > >

> > > Other communities have grown out of proportion

> > > because majority practice birth control and

> > > so it happens more hindus practice family planning

> > > than other communities.

> > >

> > > There are other reasons to ponder the rest of

> > > the argument, but let us not be alarmed by

> > > declining percentage of hindus in the world

> > > or India.

> > > --

> > > anandavalli dasan

> > > --- GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> > > <shobha.srinivasan wrote:

> > > > Namaskaram,

> > > >

> > > > I do not know how many people could see this

> > message

> > > > below from the website.

> > > > I have cut & paste for devotees who could not

> > read

> > > > from the website.

> > > >

> > > > This is a very interesting article & hence I am

> > > > posting the whole article.

> > > > Some agree & some disagree.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Shobha Srinivasan

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory_v2.jsp?art

>

> > > > > icle_oid=12564633

> > > > >

> > > > > Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > By O.P. Gupta

> > > >

> > > > Over centuries, the percentage of Hindus in the

> > > > world and even in India has

> > > > been declining. The share of Hindus in total

> > > > population of India was 84.98

> > > > percent in the 1951 census, 82.7 percent in

> > 1971,

> > > > 82.6 percent in 1981 and

> > > > 82.41 percent in 1991.

> > > >

> > > > In the 2001 census report (table 24), it has

> > been

> > > > further revised downwards

> > > > to 82 per cent in 1991 census.

> > > >

> > > > This decline warrants serious introspection and

> > > > reappraisal of our

> > > > socio-religious norms. Whereas Islamic and

> > Christian

> > > > priests have been

> > > > working overtime to seek new converts so as to

> > > > increase their demographic

> > > > weight, bulk of Hindu priests unaware of

> > Rigvedic

> > > > norms but, armed with

> > > > Manusmriti have been functioning in such manner

> > over

> > > > last one thousand that

> > > > years reduces population of Hindus by making it

> > > > difficult for a sizeable

> > > > chunk of Hindus (now called ST/SC/Dalits) to let

> > > > them remain Hindus with

> > > > honour and dignity; and, by not seeking new

> > converts

> > > > to Hinduism.

> > > >

> > > > Concepts like castes by birth, upper/lower

> > castes,

> > > > untouchables and dalits

> > > > are expressly prohibited by Rigveda, Ramayana

> > and

> > > > Shrimad Bhagwat Gita.

> > > >

> > > > Protagonists of castes by birth cite Purus-Sukta

> > > > (X.90.12) of Rigveda and

> > > > slokas (IV.13) and (XVIII.41) of Gita. This

> > claim is

> > > > totally knocked down by

> > > > other richas of Rigveda, other slokas of Gita

> > and

> > > > examples set by Lord Rama.

> > > >

> > > > There is no birth based caste in Rigveda is

> > evident

> > > > from simple fact that

> > > > names of none of Rigvedic rishis carry any

> > present

> > > > day caste titles like

> > > > Pandit, Sharma, Tripathi, Chaturvedi, Trivedi,

> > > > Singh, Gupta and Namboodari.

> > > >

> > > > Vedas, Valmiki Ramayan and Gita are three and

> > only

> > > > three supreme religious

> > > > scriptures of Hindus. Rigveda has revelations to

> > 414

> > > > rishis. Rigveda was

> > > > composed around 1500 BC but other school

> > believes it

> > > > to be older than 5000

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

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>

>

>

> Srirangasri-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is not possible to know the Vedas/Vedic principles in toto..as mentioned

earlier, it is a deepest ocean without end.

The writer is aware that the views were of common people and not Vedic

pundits....The point is we all (the writer included) are common in a

slightly more evolved way simply because we are able to at least discuss,

contemplate, air our views, have thoughts, ideas etc. compared to the basic

common man on the road.

 

If we (the writer included) ourselves in these introspective analytical

frame of mind by using our intellect still believe and express things like

Hindu, caste, Indian, 'our community' etc. we are perhaps doing a

disservice to the basic common man because we cannot expect something

better and more holistic than what the basic common man, the mass in

general is clamouring for And which incidentally, as someone pointed out

rightly, is exploited by the ruling class (call it the politician, the

minister, the king or Government), but the exploitation is right there and

cannot be denied.

 

Yes, we do require to declare our so -called social and religious and other

types of status' in forms, certificates, degrees for jobs etc. but lets

remember all these in the end are just creations of a narrow mind with

limited thinking. We (hopefully) may perhaps not, club ourselves in such

a class of mind-set but try to evolve differently.

 

For this to happen, the first thing we must do is to come out of the

set-pattern, imposed by society, by governments, by politicians etc. and

confront the reality. The Vedic reality is as mentioned earlier

"universality". It is called in Sanskrit

Vishwa. It covers the entire cosmos. If we can continue to talk and

explore with this focus, maybe a fresh wave of creativity, something new

may come about and this something new will certainly be not have the tag of

Hindu, religion, Indian, etc. And being new, it will attract and convince

the basic common man and he may perhaps come out of the vicious

exploitative wheel and evolve further.

 

The reason the writer quoted Sandhyavandanam is because throughout the

Vedic context the core always has been that to do something without any

expectation of return, without any let and continue doing till the last

breath. This activity, routine, ritual- call it by any name, is in reality

a logical amalgam of Yoga, physical/ mental exercises, meditation,

confession, introspection, surrender, Bhakti, adoration, prayer and what

not for everything, all gods, all entites including death and insects. It

seeks two things in the end, one for illumination at the intellect level to

know more about oneself and two benefit to all (insects, fishes and

bacteria included). Nothing is left out.

 

The process was laid down ages ago as a mandatory requirement so that the

first thing one did was to do this three times without fail and all

material, mental, physical, and all requirements would get fulfilled

automatically. As one keeps on doing for years, the mind acquires a

different dimension and will function out of total surrendered compassion.

A choiceless life without any discord. Therefore, the Vedas prescribed

these as preliminary and primary requirement. Moreover, if this is done

diligently, then there is even no need to talk of religion, visit temples,

hang pictures of gods, worship anything else, or even pray. It includes

everything, absolutely anything and everything. Lastly, prolonged practice

also leads to elimination of fear of death and fear in general.

 

It is not a ritual. It is a mandatory way of life. And since this is

ignored by a majority claiming lack of time, pressures due to material

pursuits, we(common people including the writer) continue to face problems

under the so called human-defined exploitative categories outlined above.

 

What is our job ? or to put it differently, what should have been Shri

Gupta's focus ? Loudly tell the masses that these pecentages, socio-religio

tags and references will only enslave us and not liberate our minds.

 

To put it differently, if you say that our lifestyle does not permit the

time our ancestors had, pray can you sacrifice something and at least

confront the reality that the same lifestyle you are talking is being

played by you alongwith

others ? If and only if you can emulate and take high encouragement from

your forefathers, can you step aside from the crowd and say " look I will

get the time, I will slow down" ? If we can, then a totally different

path would get carved. It requires courage of the heart and not the cunning

of the mind.

 

As regards the Nayyanmars, the Alwars, Andal, a Kabir or Tukaram, all these

were a cut above the rest. They were gifted prodigies. The writer is a

commoner like you all.

 

Please do not take these exchange as an attack on your views. It is not so.

 

 

 

 

"alambda"

<alambda@netviga

<s.ramachandran

tor.com> cc:

<SrirangaSri>

Re: OP Gupta's article

/: Vedas, Hindu scriptures

02/06/03 08:33 prohibit casteism

PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

May I know how many of US know Vedas and Vedic Principles, and is that

the

yardstick to measure depth of ones own understanding. Guptas point as well

as other points in the group should be taken as a views of commoners and

not

Vedic Pundits, those commoners also follows of Hindu Dharma. You may

claim

that there is not such thing as Hinduism ( yes, I agree with you), but in

our Birth Certificate and Marriage certificate, majority Indians, who are

Hindus don't say " vedic age" or Sanatha Dharma.,, so let us kindly focus

on

the issue as Hinduism AKA ..Vedic Principles or Sanathana Dharma.

 

Certainly, just by doing Sandhyavandanam alone ONE does not become a

follower of Hindu Dharma or Vedic Priciple, that is a short sighted view,

Bhakti and Love could be a part and parcel of a Ritual, but they are

certainly above Rituals. Our own Alwars and Nayarnmars are elevated to

their pinnacle becoz of the Bhakti and love for God and not for the

Rituals.

 

So, I totally disagree with your Shri. Ramachandran that you have to enjoy

the love of Bhakti and Love for God and not judge one by doing a certain

ritualistic process. I certainly feel that in today's lifestyle an Most

of

those follow Sandhyavandam are doing with a feeling of not to be left

alone, and branded as not following their DUTY but certainly they

don't

have the time like our elders who had all the time and contenment. and far

less materialistic commitments.

 

 

Namaskarams

 

Swathi

 

 

-

<s.ramachandran

Raman Kannan <rrfamily; <bhakti-list>;

sampath kumar <sampathkumar_2000;

<parakalamatham>; <sv-general>

Cc: alambda <alambda; <SrirangaSri>;

<shobha.srinivasan; <Visu9; Narasimhan KC

<mythkc; Shobha Subramaniam <shobha03

Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:11 PM

OP Gupta's article /: Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

 

 

>

> Hope all pardon the writer, but almost everyone - including OP Gupta -

> seems to nurse a common fallacy about basic concepts and priciples.

>

> 1. Coining words like Hinduism itself is meaningless. The Vedic

structure

> prevails over the entire universe/cosmos, nay it extends to the heavens,

> down below in the deepest bowels of the earth at her nadir.

>

> 2. The Vedic principles and sound forms do not refer to Caste etc. and

> these are human creations which has been historically misused by all.

> Conscious effort has to be made by all in refraining to put this word

into

> use - hope everyone does not misunderstand this writer's use in para 2

> here, but this is just to put an end to this frequent refence

>

> 3. As rightly mentioned by Shri Raman Kannan, numbers /statistics are

> useless. Similarly the references to the word "Indian " etc. should be

> also avoided in view of the hard fact that Vedic principles are universal

> and eternal applicability to man, birds, animals, stones, wind, sky, fire

> etc.

>

> 4.By the same reasoning, references to religion/Hindu religion, "Our"

> religion etc. should also be avoided.

>

> All the above words in various forms can be summed up tersly as "Vedic

> principles".

>

> 5. With due apologies, coming to Ms Swati's (from Hongkong under ID

Alambda

> one presumes) comments on 'our community", "family planning"," 2-3

> children > per hindu family", are all frankly likely to create further

> confusion in that there is no such thing as "hindu family". As per the

> Vedic principles, everything is one. Full stop. It is 'We all'. The

'We'

> including animals, insects, birds, microbes and the tree and flower and

> seeds.

>

> Further it is somewhat limited to think in terms of

>

> "one who is not proud of one's religion can very proud of

> their own

> religion can also be a> catalyst to its down fall, it

> need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from

> > the face of the earth"

>

> Anyone fully comprehending the Vedic principles will at once first

realize

> that there is nothing to be proud about. This is a way, maybe the only

> right way, of living and thats it. This is not a religion which one can

be

> a catalyst etc. ...and therefore the question of erased from the face of

> the earth does not arise. Perhaps Hindusim may be erased but Vedic

> principles cannot be, because they are without beginning and end....

>

> Further her 'Reality' that we should work as a community and not

> individually etc. is again not a reality. Reality is the Vedic

principles.

> Entites do not matter.

>

> Finally, coming to Shri Gupta's exposition in his so-called article, is

> totally baseless and a waste of time, effort. It is impossibe to fathom

> the Vedic principles whereas he has taken a finite small sample,

examples

> from the Rgveda etc. to drive home a point, not understanding that this

is

> just a minutest particle in the whole ocean of the Vedas. The Vedas

abound

> in ironical, allogerical, illogical and mysterious commands/references,

> prayers, praise, instructions, songs, principles, rules, procedures. It

is

> deeper than the deepest oceans and equally ancient. So to pluck a very

very

> limited part and derive an interpretation is totally disturbed

channelising

> of energies.

>

> To put the whole concern into perspective, if at all, of any of the

various

> authors, commentators and writers below, if they are real proponents of

the

> Vedic principles, do they do the Sandhyavandanam daily 3 times without

> fail? if not, none are eligible to even contemplate on the matters

> mentioned. If yes, then too there is no need to contemplate on these

> because one could have some answers in due course.

>

> Trust everyone takes this in the proper spirit it is written and not as

> something which is written to hurt feelings or critisize just for the

sake.

>

> Regards

Raman Kannan

> <rrfamily (AT) (DOT) alambda

<alambda

> com> cc:

SrirangaSri

> Re:

Re: Vedas, Hindu scriptures

> 02/05/03 08:55 prohibit casteism

> PM

Swamin

>

> Getting alarmed does not help. Hyperbole does not help

> either.

> Hinduism cannot ever die. If there is one

> good confirming vedic practioner our way of life

> will survive.

>

> The fact that the number of hindus increased

> from 600 MILL to 800 MILL while say for example

> all other denominations increased from 100 MILL

> to 300 MILL the percentages have fallen behind.

> 600/700 roughly 86%

> to 800/1100 roughly 73%

> so we should not fall for the statistician trick

> present the same set of facts using different norms

> and inapplicable and imply something very drastic.

>

> In the last 50 years population has increased

> and the rate of growth has decreased.

>

> This is what we want. Why should we be alarmed?

>

> Now the decadence in Indian mind is indeed alaraming.

> it is all selfish,

> going after money that will not

> follow us one minute when we are dead...

> this is all very alarming..

> ignoring temples,

> not caring for someone who is suffering

> and saying that this is all due to caste is alarming.

> Is it castes that created the difference.

> Is it not the practioners who ill-treated

> certain other castes.

> mindless and politicians without a conscious

> used it to their benefit. We cannot complain about

> them either.

>

> our religion with caste is a superior way of living.

> religion without ritual is a brain without a body.

> religion without philosophy is a body without brain.

> So our religion has all of this and it is complete.

> We should be proud to understand and follow to

> the fullest extent. There is no room for thinking

> less of another gender or another person.

> This is not allowed. Anyone who finds a difference

> in others is not aware of Gita and its basic

> tenents.

>

> The author instead of stating the facts as it is

> tries to invect useless and misleading numbers

> in the beginning and then tries to ascribe

> it to caste which is at best an irrelevant factor.

> Indian mind is corrupt today including IAS/IFS

> and all the govt bureacracies. adiyen is first line.

> We need to change fundamentally.

> What good is it if we cannot lay proper road?

> that is where we are... We are also very egotistical

> we cannot sit down and think about our problems aloud

> without becoming emotional about it.

> I can bet that many reading this email will be

> inflamed and allow my limitations to ruin their

> afternoon getting mad and angry.

> They cannot realize I am on the same side as anyone

> else who loves and adores and respects our

> way of life, going back to gokulum.

> adiyen

> RK

>

> --- alambda <alambda wrote:

> > Dear Shri Raman,

> >

> > may I know why and how you say there is no reason to

> > be alarmed????

> > the percentage

> > of Hindu's may be very high comparing to other

> > communities as you put it,

> > but the questions should be also how many Hindus

> > really knows values of

> > Sanathana Dharma, one way not knowing much about our

> > own faith can also

> > contribute to subject here.

> >

> > In the real sense one does not become a Hindu by

> > just being born in a Hindu

> > family, but knowing about the principle of Hinduism

> > (Sanathana Dharma) and

> > try to uphold its principles and if need be share it

> > with other communities.

> > ( I am not asking our guys to go out and convert

> > others like Christians and

> > Islam does)

> >

> > Gupta's statement can also be taken in different

> > sense as one who is not

> > very proud of their own religion can also be a

> > catalyst to its down fall, it

> > need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from

> > the face of the earth,

> > that is not going to happen, but inspite of 1

> > billion people being Hindus

> > and sheer 20-30 million being Jews, we don't need to

> > state who hold better

> > power/saying in the world affairs.

> >

> > So, Mr. Gupta's article should not be thrown into a

> > back burner, but

> > carefully analysed and necessary steps should be

> > taken.

> >

> > Family Planning: we can certainly have 2-3 children

> > per hindu family and

> > have faith that we can certainly provide for their

> > betterment, if not too

> > much materialisic gain. That confidence will come

> > only if there are enough

> > institurion/hospital, exclusively for Hindus, run by

> > Hindu communities, that

> > is the assurance that Hindu Childrens of the future

> > will be taken care.

> > These activities are very common in India for

> > Islamic childrens, and

> > Christians are equally supportive to their own

> > community. One need to see

> > the Nadar Christian community for this, so, they

> > have no worries making more

> > childrens, easily 5 per family. Reality is we don't

> > talk as a community but

> > as an individual, Let us act as a community and you

> > can count my

> > participation in any level. For sure, we have to

> > abandon the Casteism and

> > all Hindus are childrens of same Vedic Faith.

> >

> > hari om

> >

> > Swathi

> > Hong Kong

> >

> > -

> > Raman Kannan <rrfamily

> > GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> > <shobha.srinivasan; <>

> > Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:26 AM

> > Re: Re: Vedas, Hindu

> > scriptures prohibit casteism

> >

> >

> > > There is a serious flaw in the argument advanced

> > > by this article.

> > > The % will go down as the count goes up

> > > in other communities.

> > > The number of people who believe in hinduisim

> > > has not gone down as this article would suggest.

> > >

> > > The total number of people has not remained

> > constant.

> > >

> > > Other communities have grown out of proportion

> > > because majority practice birth control and

> > > so it happens more hindus practice family planning

> > > than other communities.

> > >

> > > There are other reasons to ponder the rest of

> > > the argument, but let us not be alarmed by

> > > declining percentage of hindus in the world

> > > or India.

> > > --

> > > anandavalli dasan

> > > --- GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> > > <shobha.srinivasan wrote:

> > > > Namaskaram,

> > > >

> > > > I do not know how many people could see this

> > message

> > > > below from the website.

> > > > I have cut & paste for devotees who could not

> > read

> > > > from the website.

> > > >

> > > > This is a very interesting article & hence I am

> > > > posting the whole article.

> > > > Some agree & some disagree.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Shobha Srinivasan

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory_v2.jsp?art

 

>

> > > > > icle_oid=12564633

> > > > >

> > > > > Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > By O.P. Gupta

> > > >

> > > > Over centuries, the percentage of Hindus in the

> > > > world and even in India has

> > > > been declining. The share of Hindus in total

> > > > population of India was 84.98

> > > > percent in the 1951 census, 82.7 percent in

> > 1971,

> > > > 82.6 percent in 1981 and

> > > > 82.41 percent in 1991.

> > > >

> > > > In the 2001 census report (table 24), it has

> > been

> > > > further revised downwards

> > > > to 82 per cent in 1991 census.

> > > >

> > > > This decline warrants serious introspection and

> > > > reappraisal of our

> > > > socio-religious norms. Whereas Islamic and

> > Christian

> > > > priests have been

> > > > working overtime to seek new converts so as to

> > > > increase their demographic

> > > > weight, bulk of Hindu priests unaware of

> > Rigvedic

> > > > norms but, armed with

> > > > Manusmriti have been functioning in such manner

> > over

> > > > last one thousand that

> > > > years reduces population of Hindus by making it

> > > > difficult for a sizeable

> > > > chunk of Hindus (now called ST/SC/Dalits) to let

> > > > them remain Hindus with

> > > > honour and dignity; and, by not seeking new

> > converts

> > > > to Hinduism.

> > > >

> > > > Concepts like castes by birth, upper/lower

> > castes,

> > > > untouchables and dalits

> > > > are expressly prohibited by Rigveda, Ramayana

> > and

> > > > Shrimad Bhagwat Gita.

> > > >

> > > > Protagonists of castes by birth cite Purus-Sukta

> > > > (X.90.12) of Rigveda and

> > > > slokas (IV.13) and (XVIII.41) of Gita. This

> > claim is

> > > > totally knocked down by

> > > > other richas of Rigveda, other slokas of Gita

> > and

> > > > examples set by Lord Rama.

> > > >

> > > > There is no birth based caste in Rigveda is

> > evident

> > > > from simple fact that

> > > > names of none of Rigvedic rishis carry any

> > present

> > > > day caste titles like

> > > > Pandit, Sharma, Tripathi, Chaturvedi, Trivedi,

> > > > Singh, Gupta and Namboodari.

> > > >

> > > > Vedas, Valmiki Ramayan and Gita are three and

> > only

> > > > three supreme religious

> > > > scriptures of Hindus. Rigveda has revelations to

> > 414

> > > > rishis. Rigveda was

> > > > composed around 1500 BC but other school

> > believes it

> > > > to be older than 5000

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

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>

>

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>

>

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>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

adiyan dasan,

 

Can any learned person explain why we have to perform sandiya

vandanam? why we wear poonul? what significant does it hold? No

other countries do perform all this? We Hindu especially bramin

community insist all this?

Why poonul has three threads? why it differ from vaidikals? Why

the bachelor wear different poonul?

 

Dasan

Sundararajan Iyengar

 

 

On Thu, 06 Feb 2003

sentto-2182732-2076-1044548526-jsundara=rediffmail.com

wrote :

>Dear Bhagavatas:

>Enough has been said on the topic. No doubt,we have learned very

>interesting points from our erudite members. But, the discussions

>seem to be endless and seem to lead us nowhere.

>

>After all, the piece by the author has a discreet "disclaimer" at

>the end that it is the personal opinion of Sri OP Gupta. Hence,

>this should not have been allowed in our list in the first place.

>Sorry for my slip in moderating.

>

>No personal opinions may be posted in future on this list. If any

>topic is to be discussed, it has to be supported by actual

>quotations and ample PramaaNams duly approved by our Poorva and

>Prakritam Acharyas. Otherwise, any discussion will drift into

>undesirable polemics.

>

>It has, therfore, been decided that further postings on the

>subject will not be approved unless they satisfy the above

>criterion.

>

>Thanks for your understanding and co-operation.

>

>Dasoham

>Moderator

>"Sri Ranga Sri"

>===========================================================================

>

> From Sri S. Ramachandran:

>

>Hope all pardon the writer, but almost everyone - including OP

>Gupta -

>seems to nurse a common fallacy about basic concepts and

>priciples.

>

>1. Coining words like Hinduism itself is meaningless. The Vedic

>structure

>prevails over the entire universe/cosmos, nay it extends to the

>heavens,

>down below in the deepest bowels of the earth at her nadir.

>

>2. The Vedic principles and sound forms do not refer to Caste

>etc. and

>these are human creations which has been historically misused by

>all.

>Conscious effort has to be made by all in refraining to put this

>word into

>use - hope everyone does not misunderstand this writer's use in

>para 2

>here, but this is just to put an end to this frequent refence

>

>3. As rightly mentioned by Shri Raman Kannan, numbers /statistics

>are

>useless. Similarly the references to the word "Indian " etc.

>should be

>also avoided in view of the hard fact that Vedic principles are

>universal

>and eternal applicability to man, birds, animals, stones, wind,

>sky, fire

>etc.

>

>4.By the same reasoning, references to religion/Hindu religion,

>"Our"

>religion etc. should also be avoided.

>

>All the above words in various forms can be summed up tersly as

>"Vedic

>principles".

>

>5. With due apologies, coming to Ms Swati's (from Hongkong under

>ID Alambda

>one presumes) comments on 'our community", "family planning","

>2-3

>children > per hindu family", are all frankly likely to create

>further

>confusion in that there is no such thing as "hindu family". As

>per the

>Vedic principles, everything is one. Full stop. It is 'We all'.

>The 'We'

>including animals, insects, birds, microbes and the tree and

>flower and

>seeds.

>

>Further it is somewhat limited to think in terms of

>

> "one who is not proud of one's religion can very

>proud of

>their own

> religion can also be a> catalyst to its down

>fall, it

> need be considered as Hinduism will be erased

> from

> > the face of the earth"

>

>Anyone fully comprehending the Vedic principles will at once

>first realize

>that there is nothing to be proud about. This is a way, maybe the

>only

>right way, of living and thats it. This is not a religion which

>one can be

>a catalyst etc. ...and therefore the question of erased from the

>face of

>the earth does not arise. Perhaps Hindusim may be erased but

>Vedic

>principles cannot be, because they are without beginning and

>end....

>

>Further her 'Reality' that we should work as a community and

>not

>individually etc. is again not a reality. Reality is the Vedic

>principles.

>Entites do not matter.

>

>Finally, coming to Shri Gupta's exposition in his so-called

>article, is

>totally baseless and a waste of time, effort. It is impossibe to

>fathom

>the Vedic principles whereas he has taken a finite small sample,

>examples

> from the Rgveda etc. to drive home a point, not understanding

>that this is

>just a minutest particle in the whole ocean of the Vedas. The

>Vedas abound

>in ironical, allogerical, illogical and mysterious

>commands/references,

>prayers, praise, instructions, songs, principles, rules,

>procedures. It is

>deeper than the deepest oceans and equally ancient. So to pluck a

>very very

>limited part and derive an interpretation is totally disturbed

>channelising

>of energies.

>

>To put the whole concern into perspective, if at all, of any of

>the various

>authors, commentators and writers below, if they are real

>proponents of the

>Vedic principles, do they do the Sandhyavandanam daily 3 times

>without

>fail? if not, none are eligible to even contemplate on the

>matters

>mentioned. If yes, then too there is no need to contemplate on

>these

>because one could have some answers in due course.

>

>Trust everyone takes this in the proper spirit it is written and

>not as

>something which is written to hurt feelings or critisize just for

>the sake.

>

>Regards

Raman Kannan

> <rrfamily (AT) (DOT) alambda

><alambda

> com> cc:

>SrirangaSri

> Re:

> Re: Vedas, Hindu scriptures

> 02/05/03 08:55 prohibit

>casteism

> PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Swamin

>

>Getting alarmed does not help. Hyperbole does not help

>either.

>Hinduism cannot ever die. If there is one

>good confirming vedic practioner our way of life

>will survive.

>

>The fact that the number of hindus increased

> from 600 MILL to 800 MILL while say for example

>all other denominations increased from 100 MILL

>to 300 MILL the percentages have fallen behind.

>600/700 roughly 86%

>to 800/1100 roughly 73%

>so we should not fall for the statistician trick

>present the same set of facts using different norms

>and inapplicable and imply something very drastic.

>

>In the last 50 years population has increased

>and the rate of growth has decreased.

>

>This is what we want. Why should we be alarmed?

>

>Now the decadence in Indian mind is indeed alaraming.

>it is all selfish,

>going after money that will not

>follow us one minute when we are dead...

>this is all very alarming..

>ignoring temples,

>not caring for someone who is suffering

>and saying that this is all due to caste is alarming.

>Is it castes that created the difference.

>Is it not the practioners who ill-treated

>certain other castes.

>mindless and politicians without a conscious

>used it to their benefit. We cannot complain about

>them either.

>

>our religion with caste is a superior way of living.

>religion without ritual is a brain without a body.

>religion without philosophy is a body without brain.

>So our religion has all of this and it is complete.

>We should be proud to understand and follow to

>the fullest extent. There is no room for thinking

>less of another gender or another person.

>This is not allowed. Anyone who finds a difference

>in others is not aware of Gita and its basic

>tenents.

>

>The author instead of stating the facts as it is

>tries to invect useless and misleading numbers

>in the beginning and then tries to ascribe

>it to caste which is at best an irrelevant factor.

>Indian mind is corrupt today including IAS/IFS

>and all the govt bureacracies. adiyen is first line.

>We need to change fundamentally.

>What good is it if we cannot lay proper road?

>that is where we are... We are also very egotistical

>we cannot sit down and think about our problems aloud

>without becoming emotional about it.

>I can bet that many reading this email will be

>inflamed and allow my limitations to ruin their

>afternoon getting mad and angry.

>They cannot realize I am on the same side as anyone

>else who loves and adores and respects our

>way of life, going back to gokulum.

>adiyen

>RK

>

>--- alambda <alambda wrote:

> > Dear Shri Raman,

> >

> > may I know why and how you say there is no reason to

> > be alarmed????

> > the percentage

> > of Hindu's may be very high comparing to other

> > communities as you put it,

> > but the questions should be also how many Hindus

> > really knows values of

> > Sanathana Dharma, one way not knowing much about our

> > own faith can also

> > contribute to subject here.

> >

> > In the real sense one does not become a Hindu by

> > just being born in a Hindu

> > family, but knowing about the principle of Hinduism

> > (Sanathana Dharma) and

> > try to uphold its principles and if need be share it

> > with other communities.

> > ( I am not asking our guys to go out and convert

> > others like Christians and

> > Islam does)

> >

> > Gupta's statement can also be taken in different

> > sense as one who is not

> > very proud of their own religion can also be a

> > catalyst to its down fall, it

> > need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from

> > the face of the earth,

> > that is not going to happen, but inspite of 1

> > billion people being Hindus

> > and sheer 20-30 million being Jews, we don't need to

> > state who hold better

> > power/saying in the world affairs.

> >

> > So, Mr. Gupta's article should not be thrown into a

> > back burner, but

> > carefully analysed and necessary steps should be

> > taken.

> >

> > Family Planning: we can certainly have 2-3 children

> > per hindu family and

> > have faith that we can certainly provide for their

> > betterment, if not too

> > much materialisic gain. That confidence will come

> > only if there are enough

> > institurion/hospital, exclusively for Hindus, run by

> > Hindu communities, that

> > is the assurance that Hindu Childrens of the future

> > will be taken care.

> > These activities are very common in India for

> > Islamic childrens, and

> > Christians are equally supportive to their own

> > community. One need to see

> > the Nadar Christian community for this, so, they

> > have no worries making more

> > childrens, easily 5 per family. Reality is we don't

> > talk as a community but

> > as an individual, Let us act as a community and you

> > can count my

> > participation in any level. For sure, we have to

> > abandon the Casteism and

> > all Hindus are childrens of same Vedic Faith.

> >

> > hari om

> >

> > Swathi

> > Hong Kong

> >

> > -

> > Raman Kannan <rrfamily

> > GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> > <shobha.srinivasan; <>

> > Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:26 AM

> > Re: Re: Vedas, Hindu

> > scriptures prohibit casteism

> >

> >

> > > There is a serious flaw in the argument advanced

> > > by this article.

> > > The % will go down as the count goes up

> > > in other communities.

> > > The number of people who believe in hinduisim

> > > has not gone down as this article would suggest.

> > >

> > > The total number of people has not remained

> > constant.

> > >

> > > Other communities have grown out of proportion

> > > because majority practice birth control and

> > > so it happens more hindus practice family planning

> > > than other communities.

> > >

> > > There are other reasons to ponder the rest of

> > > the argument, but let us not be alarmed by

> > > declining percentage of hindus in the world

> > > or India.

> > > --

> > > anandavalli dasan

> > > --- GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> > > <shobha.srinivasan wrote:

> > > > Namaskaram,

> > > >

> > > > I do not know how many people could see this

> > message

> > > > below from the website.

> > > > I have cut & paste for devotees who could not

> > read

> > > > from the website.

> > > >

> > > > This is a very interesting article & hence I am

> > > > posting the whole article.

> > > > Some agree & some disagree.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Shobha Srinivasan

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory_v2.jsp?art

>

> > > > > icle_oid=12564633

> > > > >

> > > > > Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > By O.P. Gupta

> > > >

> > > > Over centuries, the percentage of Hindus in the

> > > > world and even in India has

> > > > been declining. The share of Hindus in total

> > > > population of India was 84.98

> > > > percent in the 1951 census, 82.7 percent in

> > 1971,

> > > > 82.6 percent in 1981 and

> > > > 82.41 percent in 1991.

> > > >

> > > > In the 2001 census report (table 24), it has

> > been

> > > > further revised downwards

> > > > to 82 per cent in 1991 census.

> > > >

> > > > This decline warrants serious introspection and

> > > > reappraisal of our

> > > > socio-religious norms. Whereas Islamic and

> > Christian

> > > > priests have been

> > > > working overtime to seek new converts so as to

> > > > increase their demographic

> > > > weight, bulk of Hindu priests unaware of

> > Rigvedic

> > > > norms but, armed with

> > > > Manusmriti have been functioning in such manner

> > over

> > > > last one thousand that

> > > > years reduces population of Hindus by making it

> > > > difficult for a sizeable

> > > > chunk of Hindus (now called ST/SC/Dalits) to let

> > > > them remain Hindus with

> > > > honour and dignity; and, by not seeking new

> > converts

> > > > to Hinduism.

> > > >

> > > > Concepts like castes by birth, upper/lower

> > castes,

> > > > untouchables and dalits

> > > > are expressly prohibited by Rigveda, Ramayana

> > and

> > > > Shrimad Bhagwat Gita.

> > > >

> > > > Protagonists of castes by birth cite Purus-Sukta

> > > > (X.90.12) of Rigveda and

> > > > slokas (IV.13) and (XVIII.41) of Gita. This

> > claim is

> > > > totally knocked down by

> > > > other richas of Rigveda, other slokas of Gita

> > and

> > > > examples set by Lord Rama.

> > > >

> > > > There is no birth based caste in Rigveda is

> > evident

> > > > from simple fact that

> > > > names of none of Rigvedic rishis carry any

> > present

> > > > day caste titles like

> > > > Pandit, Sharma, Tripathi, Chaturvedi, Trivedi,

> > > > Singh, Gupta and Namboodari.

> > > >

> > > > Vedas, Valmiki Ramayan and Gita are three and

> > only

> > > > three supreme religious

> > > > scriptures of Hindus. Rigveda has revelations to

> > 414

> > > > rishis. Rigveda was

> > > > composed around 1500 BC but other school

> > believes it

> > > > to be older than 5000

> >

>=== message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

>http://mailplus.

>

>

>

>Srirangasri-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Srirangasri-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>