OP Gupta's article /: Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas:

Enough has been said on the topic. No doubt,we have learned very interesting

points from our erudite members. But, the discussions seem to be endless and

seem to lead us nowhere.

 

After all, the piece by the author has a discreet "disclaimer" at the end that

it is the personal opinion of Sri OP Gupta. Hence, this should not have been

allowed in our list in the first place. Sorry for my slip in moderating.

 

No personal opinions may be posted in future on this list. If any topic is to be

discussed, it has to be supported by actual quotations and ample PramaaNams duly

approved by our Poorva and Prakritam Acharyas. Otherwise, any discussion will

drift into undesirable polemics.

 

It has, therfore, been decided that further postings on the subject will not be

approved unless they satisfy the above criterion.

 

Thanks for your understanding and co-operation.

 

Dasoham

Moderator

"Sri Ranga Sri"

===========================================================================

 

>From Sri S. Ramachandran:

 

Hope all pardon the writer, but almost everyone - including OP Gupta -

seems to nurse a common fallacy about basic concepts and priciples.

 

1. Coining words like Hinduism itself is meaningless. The Vedic structure

prevails over the entire universe/cosmos, nay it extends to the heavens,

down below in the deepest bowels of the earth at her nadir.

 

2. The Vedic principles and sound forms do not refer to Caste etc. and

these are human creations which has been historically misused by all.

Conscious effort has to be made by all in refraining to put this word into

use - hope everyone does not misunderstand this writer's use in para 2

here, but this is just to put an end to this frequent refence

 

3. As rightly mentioned by Shri Raman Kannan, numbers /statistics are

useless. Similarly the references to the word "Indian " etc. should be

also avoided in view of the hard fact that Vedic principles are universal

and eternal applicability to man, birds, animals, stones, wind, sky, fire

etc.

 

4.By the same reasoning, references to religion/Hindu religion, "Our"

religion etc. should also be avoided.

 

All the above words in various forms can be summed up tersly as "Vedic

principles".

 

5. With due apologies, coming to Ms Swati's (from Hongkong under ID Alambda

one presumes) comments on 'our community", "family planning"," 2-3

children > per hindu family", are all frankly likely to create further

confusion in that there is no such thing as "hindu family". As per the

Vedic principles, everything is one. Full stop. It is 'We all'. The 'We'

including animals, insects, birds, microbes and the tree and flower and

seeds.

 

Further it is somewhat limited to think in terms of

 

"one who is not proud of one's religion can very proud of

their own

religion can also be a> catalyst to its down fall, it

need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from

> the face of the earth"

 

Anyone fully comprehending the Vedic principles will at once first realize

that there is nothing to be proud about. This is a way, maybe the only

right way, of living and thats it. This is not a religion which one can be

a catalyst etc. ...and therefore the question of erased from the face of

the earth does not arise. Perhaps Hindusim may be erased but Vedic

principles cannot be, because they are without beginning and end....

 

Further her 'Reality' that we should work as a community and not

individually etc. is again not a reality. Reality is the Vedic principles.

Entites do not matter.

 

Finally, coming to Shri Gupta's exposition in his so-called article, is

totally baseless and a waste of time, effort. It is impossibe to fathom

the Vedic principles whereas he has taken a finite small sample, examples

from the Rgveda etc. to drive home a point, not understanding that this is

just a minutest particle in the whole ocean of the Vedas. The Vedas abound

in ironical, allogerical, illogical and mysterious commands/references,

prayers, praise, instructions, songs, principles, rules, procedures. It is

deeper than the deepest oceans and equally ancient. So to pluck a very very

limited part and derive an interpretation is totally disturbed channelising

of energies.

 

To put the whole concern into perspective, if at all, of any of the various

authors, commentators and writers below, if they are real proponents of the

Vedic principles, do they do the Sandhyavandanam daily 3 times without

fail? if not, none are eligible to even contemplate on the matters

mentioned. If yes, then too there is no need to contemplate on these

because one could have some answers in due course.

 

Trust everyone takes this in the proper spirit it is written and not as

something which is written to hurt feelings or critisize just for the sake.

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

Raman Kannan

<rrfamily (AT) (DOT) alambda

<alambda

com> cc:

SrirangaSri

Re: Re:

Vedas, Hindu scriptures

02/05/03 08:55 prohibit casteism

PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Swamin

 

Getting alarmed does not help. Hyperbole does not help

either.

Hinduism cannot ever die. If there is one

good confirming vedic practioner our way of life

will survive.

 

The fact that the number of hindus increased

from 600 MILL to 800 MILL while say for example

all other denominations increased from 100 MILL

to 300 MILL the percentages have fallen behind.

600/700 roughly 86%

to 800/1100 roughly 73%

so we should not fall for the statistician trick

present the same set of facts using different norms

and inapplicable and imply something very drastic.

 

In the last 50 years population has increased

and the rate of growth has decreased.

 

This is what we want. Why should we be alarmed?

 

Now the decadence in Indian mind is indeed alaraming.

it is all selfish,

going after money that will not

follow us one minute when we are dead...

this is all very alarming..

ignoring temples,

not caring for someone who is suffering

and saying that this is all due to caste is alarming.

Is it castes that created the difference.

Is it not the practioners who ill-treated

certain other castes.

mindless and politicians without a conscious

used it to their benefit. We cannot complain about

them either.

 

our religion with caste is a superior way of living.

religion without ritual is a brain without a body.

religion without philosophy is a body without brain.

So our religion has all of this and it is complete.

We should be proud to understand and follow to

the fullest extent. There is no room for thinking

less of another gender or another person.

This is not allowed. Anyone who finds a difference

in others is not aware of Gita and its basic

tenents.

 

The author instead of stating the facts as it is

tries to invect useless and misleading numbers

in the beginning and then tries to ascribe

it to caste which is at best an irrelevant factor.

Indian mind is corrupt today including IAS/IFS

and all the govt bureacracies. adiyen is first line.

We need to change fundamentally.

What good is it if we cannot lay proper road?

that is where we are... We are also very egotistical

we cannot sit down and think about our problems aloud

without becoming emotional about it.

I can bet that many reading this email will be

inflamed and allow my limitations to ruin their

afternoon getting mad and angry.

They cannot realize I am on the same side as anyone

else who loves and adores and respects our

way of life, going back to gokulum.

adiyen

RK

 

--- alambda <alambda wrote:

> Dear Shri Raman,

>

> may I know why and how you say there is no reason to

> be alarmed????

> the percentage

> of Hindu's may be very high comparing to other

> communities as you put it,

> but the questions should be also how many Hindus

> really knows values of

> Sanathana Dharma, one way not knowing much about our

> own faith can also

> contribute to subject here.

>

> In the real sense one does not become a Hindu by

> just being born in a Hindu

> family, but knowing about the principle of Hinduism

> (Sanathana Dharma) and

> try to uphold its principles and if need be share it

> with other communities.

> ( I am not asking our guys to go out and convert

> others like Christians and

> Islam does)

>

> Gupta's statement can also be taken in different

> sense as one who is not

> very proud of their own religion can also be a

> catalyst to its down fall, it

> need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from

> the face of the earth,

> that is not going to happen, but inspite of 1

> billion people being Hindus

> and sheer 20-30 million being Jews, we don't need to

> state who hold better

> power/saying in the world affairs.

>

> So, Mr. Gupta's article should not be thrown into a

> back burner, but

> carefully analysed and necessary steps should be

> taken.

>

> Family Planning: we can certainly have 2-3 children

> per hindu family and

> have faith that we can certainly provide for their

> betterment, if not too

> much materialisic gain. That confidence will come

> only if there are enough

> institurion/hospital, exclusively for Hindus, run by

> Hindu communities, that

> is the assurance that Hindu Childrens of the future

> will be taken care.

> These activities are very common in India for

> Islamic childrens, and

> Christians are equally supportive to their own

> community. One need to see

> the Nadar Christian community for this, so, they

> have no worries making more

> childrens, easily 5 per family. Reality is we don't

> talk as a community but

> as an individual, Let us act as a community and you

> can count my

> participation in any level. For sure, we have to

> abandon the Casteism and

> all Hindus are childrens of same Vedic Faith.

>

> hari om

>

> Swathi

> Hong Kong

>

> -

> Raman Kannan <rrfamily

> GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> <shobha.srinivasan; <>

> Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:26 AM

> Re: Re: Vedas, Hindu

> scriptures prohibit casteism

>

>

> > There is a serious flaw in the argument advanced

> > by this article.

> > The % will go down as the count goes up

> > in other communities.

> > The number of people who believe in hinduisim

> > has not gone down as this article would suggest.

> >

> > The total number of people has not remained

> constant.

> >

> > Other communities have grown out of proportion

> > because majority practice birth control and

> > so it happens more hindus practice family planning

> > than other communities.

> >

> > There are other reasons to ponder the rest of

> > the argument, but let us not be alarmed by

> > declining percentage of hindus in the world

> > or India.

> > --

> > anandavalli dasan

> > --- GV & Shobha Srinivasan

> > <shobha.srinivasan wrote:

> > > Namaskaram,

> > >

> > > I do not know how many people could see this

> message

> > > below from the website.

> > > I have cut & paste for devotees who could not

> read

> > > from the website.

> > >

> > > This is a very interesting article & hence I am

> > > posting the whole article.

> > > Some agree & some disagree.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Shobha Srinivasan

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory_v2.jsp?art

 

> > > > icle_oid=12564633

> > > >

> > > > Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > By O.P. Gupta

> > >

> > > Over centuries, the percentage of Hindus in the

> > > world and even in India has

> > > been declining. The share of Hindus in total

> > > population of India was 84.98

> > > percent in the 1951 census, 82.7 percent in

> 1971,

> > > 82.6 percent in 1981 and

> > > 82.41 percent in 1991.

> > >

> > > In the 2001 census report (table 24), it has

> been

> > > further revised downwards

> > > to 82 per cent in 1991 census.

> > >

> > > This decline warrants serious introspection and

> > > reappraisal of our

> > > socio-religious norms. Whereas Islamic and

> Christian

> > > priests have been

> > > working overtime to seek new converts so as to

> > > increase their demographic

> > > weight, bulk of Hindu priests unaware of

> Rigvedic

> > > norms but, armed with

> > > Manusmriti have been functioning in such manner

> over

> > > last one thousand that

> > > years reduces population of Hindus by making it

> > > difficult for a sizeable

> > > chunk of Hindus (now called ST/SC/Dalits) to let

> > > them remain Hindus with

> > > honour and dignity; and, by not seeking new

> converts

> > > to Hinduism.

> > >

> > > Concepts like castes by birth, upper/lower

> castes,

> > > untouchables and dalits

> > > are expressly prohibited by Rigveda, Ramayana

> and

> > > Shrimad Bhagwat Gita.

> > >

> > > Protagonists of castes by birth cite Purus-Sukta

> > > (X.90.12) of Rigveda and

> > > slokas (IV.13) and (XVIII.41) of Gita. This

> claim is

> > > totally knocked down by

> > > other richas of Rigveda, other slokas of Gita

> and

> > > examples set by Lord Rama.

> > >

> > > There is no birth based caste in Rigveda is

> evident

> > > from simple fact that

> > > names of none of Rigvedic rishis carry any

> present

> > > day caste titles like

> > > Pandit, Sharma, Tripathi, Chaturvedi, Trivedi,

> > > Singh, Gupta and Namboodari.

> > >

> > > Vedas, Valmiki Ramayan and Gita are three and

> only

> > > three supreme religious

> > > scriptures of Hindus. Rigveda has revelations to

> 414

> > > rishis. Rigveda was

> > > composed around 1500 BC but other school

> believes it

> > > to be older than 5000

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

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