Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Namaskaram I have no scholarly skill to quote scriptures and pramanas for your query. That will of-course come from eruidite scholars of this sacred forum shortly. But, I venture out to express the clarifications of our gurus which I have heard in this regard. The Godhead Shriya:pathi is everywhere. He is vibhu. He is vishnu. He is omnipresent. He has no form and all forms belong to him. This is to be understood very clearly. That is why Vedam worships god in all the elements of nature and also in pure chit (which is consciousness). But, this consciousness has anata kalyana gunams. (Unending sacred qualities). For an unrealized soul, God is conceived through various archa and other avatarams. He takes a personification to help enable limited grasp of the unrealised mind. During such personification, The God head takes the purusha form. This is not the same like male / female combination of this evolutionary world. Purusha is independent and all other forms are dependent on him. Vedam says clearly that all living beings are dependent on this purusha. he is the only male out there. By Male, here we mean the "manly" qualities a common being will attach to. During such perceivement, All the sacred kalyana gunas of this God head are represented as his vibhutis. They are generally represented as the female consorts of the God. They are not "Wives" in the normal colloquial sense. They are in no way different from him. To quote the famous kalidasa, they are as united as the word and meaning (vAgarthAviva sambruktau...). Shri is no different from sridharan. Ma is not different from madhavan. We can't say God has two "wives". That is putting it little - pardon me saying this - crudely. He also has divya devis like brinda, shri, bhu, neela and other vibhutis. Apart from these female consorts, The God head also has many other special attributes which are also treated as female personification. Vishnu mAyA is one of them. Mother Ganga arose from his feet, so we can personify them as its daughter. And so on. Please excuse me if there are any mistakes in this. Thanks Jayaraman _____ Suchitra Srinivasan [suchisrini] 05 July 2004 18:02 Why does God have 2 wives? Hello All, I am new to this forum and I have been a staunch devotee of SriManNarayana ever since I was born. However off late I have been struggling with a few questions off late in my mind - 1) I am starting to question the fact that why did God have 2 wives? Is this whole concept of Vishnu with 2 wives, a concept created by a man-dominated society in the past? 2) Why wasn't having 2 wives considered unethical when God is expected to set an example for us all. I would appreciate your view points in this regard. Thank You. Srinivasan. <http://us.ard./SIG=129n2iqkr/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=gr oups/S=1705077013:HM/EXP=1089119331/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://comp anion.> click here <http://us.adserver./l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= :HM/A=2128215/rand=368678573> _____ * / * <?subject=Un> * Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Dear Sri Jayaraman, Thank You for your explanation! It is very enlightening! Your statement " He takes a personification to help enable limited grasp of the unrealised mind" is wonderful and clarifies my question. I have one follow-up question to clear up my mind and understand this in full - I understand there is one Supreme Purusha and he has no forms and all forms belong to him. But while personifying God, don't we emphasize more on the "man" part by attaching a "man's" form to God. Our scriptures do depict Goddess Mahalakshmi, Kali taking various forms to destroy evil. But the balance seems to be in favour the "man" form of God. I think this has been the general trend in other religions as well be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism etc., where in the personification of God predominantly seems to be in Male form. The question I have is - Is this personification of God predominantly in male form/favour a general trend due to the way society has evolved in man's favour ever since (thus helping the common person understand the concept of God better by relating to the evolutionary world we live in) or Is there any subtle difference here that I am failing to understand. Thank You. Srinivasan. --- Jayaraman <jayaraman.v wrote: > "Jayaraman" <jayaraman.v > "'Suchitra Srinivasan'" <suchisrini, > <> > RE: Why does God have 2 > wives? > Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:12:00 +0530 > > Namaskaram > > I have no scholarly skill to quote scriptures and > pramanas for your query. > That will of-course come from eruidite scholars of > this sacred forum > shortly. > > But, I venture out to express the clarifications > of our gurus which I have > heard in this regard. > > The Godhead Shriya:pathi is everywhere. He is > vibhu. He is vishnu. He is > omnipresent. He has no form and all forms belong to > him. This is to be > understood very clearly. That is why Vedam worships > god in all the elements > of nature and also in pure chit (which is > consciousness). > > But, this consciousness has anata kalyana gunams. > (Unending sacred > qualities). > > For an unrealized soul, God is conceived through > various archa and other > avatarams. He takes a personification to help > enable limited grasp of the > unrealised mind. > > During such personification, The God head takes the > purusha form. This is > not the same like male / female combination of this > evolutionary world. > Purusha is independent and all other forms are > dependent on him. Vedam says > clearly that all living beings are dependent on this > purusha. he is the > only male out there. By Male, here we mean the > "manly" qualities a common > being will attach to. > > During such perceivement, All the sacred kalyana > gunas of this God head are > represented as his vibhutis. They are generally > represented as the female > consorts of the God. They are not "Wives" in the > normal colloquial sense. > They are in no way different from him. To quote the > famous kalidasa, they > are as united as the word and meaning (vAgarthAviva > sambruktau...). Shri is > no different from sridharan. Ma is not different > from madhavan. > > We can't say God has two "wives". That is putting > it little - pardon me > saying this - crudely. He also has divya devis like > brinda, shri, bhu, > neela and other vibhutis. > > Apart from these female consorts, The God head also > has many other special > attributes which are also treated as female > personification. Vishnu mAyA is > one of them. Mother Ganga arose from his feet, so > we can personify them as > its daughter. And so on. > > Please excuse me if there are any mistakes in this. > > Thanks > > Jayaraman > > > > > > _____ > > Suchitra Srinivasan > [suchisrini] > 05 July 2004 18:02 > > Why does God have 2 wives? > > > Hello All, > > I am new to this forum and I have been a staunch > devotee of SriManNarayana ever since I was born. > > However off late I have been struggling with a few > questions off late in my mind - > > 1) I am starting to question the fact that why did > God > have 2 wives? Is this whole concept of Vishnu with 2 > wives, a concept created by a man-dominated society > in > the past? > 2) Why wasn't having 2 wives considered unethical > when > God is expected to set an example for us all. > > I would appreciate your view points in this regard. > > Thank You. > Srinivasan. > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > <http://us.ard./SIG=129n2iqkr/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=gr > oups/S=1705077013:HM/EXP=1089119331/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://comp > anion.> click here > > <http://us.adserver./l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= > :HM/A=2128215/rand=368678573> > > _____ > > Links > > > * > / > > > * > > <?subject=Un> > > > > * > Terms of Service > <> . > > > Mail is new and improved - Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 hi all while going thro this article, there came another doubt,kindly clarify. why most of the avatars- rama, krishna, siva have only sons and no daughters? rgds jayashree. --- Jayaraman <jayaraman.v wrote: > Namaskaram > > I have no scholarly skill to quote scriptures and > pramanas for your query. > That will of-course come from eruidite scholars of > this sacred forum > shortly. > > But, I venture out to express the clarifications > of our gurus which I have > heard in this regard. > > The Godhead Shriya:pathi is everywhere. He is > vibhu. He is vishnu. He is > omnipresent. He has no form and all forms belong to > him. This is to be > understood very clearly. That is why Vedam worships > god in all the elements > of nature and also in pure chit (which is > consciousness). > > But, this consciousness has anata kalyana gunams. > (Unending sacred > qualities). > > For an unrealized soul, God is conceived through > various archa and other > avatarams. He takes a personification to help > enable limited grasp of the > unrealised mind. > > During such personification, The God head takes the > purusha form. This is > not the same like male / female combination of this > evolutionary world. > Purusha is independent and all other forms are > dependent on him. Vedam says > clearly that all living beings are dependent on this > purusha. he is the > only male out there. By Male, here we mean the > "manly" qualities a common > being will attach to. > > During such perceivement, All the sacred kalyana > gunas of this God head are > represented as his vibhutis. They are generally > represented as the female > consorts of the God. They are not "Wives" in the > normal colloquial sense. > They are in no way different from him. To quote the > famous kalidasa, they > are as united as the word and meaning (vAgarthAviva > sambruktau...). Shri is > no different from sridharan. Ma is not different > from madhavan. > > We can't say God has two "wives". That is putting > it little - pardon me > saying this - crudely. He also has divya devis like > brinda, shri, bhu, > neela and other vibhutis. > > Apart from these female consorts, The God head also > has many other special > attributes which are also treated as female > personification. Vishnu mAyA is > one of them. Mother Ganga arose from his feet, so > we can personify them as > its daughter. And so on. > > Please excuse me if there are any mistakes in this. > > Thanks > > Jayaraman > > > > > > _____ > > Suchitra Srinivasan > [suchisrini] > 05 July 2004 18:02 > > Why does God have 2 wives? > > > Hello All, > > I am new to this forum and I have been a staunch > devotee of SriManNarayana ever since I was born. > > However off late I have been struggling with a few > questions off late in my mind - > > 1) I am starting to question the fact that why did > God > have 2 wives? Is this whole concept of Vishnu with 2 > wives, a concept created by a man-dominated society > in > the past? > 2) Why wasn't having 2 wives considered unethical > when > God is expected to set an example for us all. > > I would appreciate your view points in this regard. > > Thank You. > Srinivasan. > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > <http://us.ard./SIG=129n2iqkr/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=gr > oups/S=1705077013:HM/EXP=1089119331/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://comp > anion.> click here > > <http://us.adserver./l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= > :HM/A=2128215/rand=368678573> > > _____ > > Links > > > * > / > > > * > > <?subject=Un> > > > > * > Terms of Service > <> . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 Srimathe Ranga Ramanuja Maha Desikaya Namaha Pranams I am writing an opinion of mine, which I had heard during upanyasams and from our elders in our family. According to our Vishishtadvaita sindantham except Sriman Narayana , all others are Stree (women) and we are all wedded to him. If I am wrong I request you to kinldy excuse me for the same. Adiyal Hema Suchitra Srinivasan <suchisrini wrote: Hello All, I am new to this forum and I have been a staunch devotee of SriManNarayana ever since I was born. However off late I have been struggling with a few questions off late in my mind - 1) I am starting to question the fact that why did God have 2 wives? Is this whole concept of Vishnu with 2 wives, a concept created by a man-dominated society in the past? 2) Why wasn't having 2 wives considered unethical when God is expected to set an example for us all. I would appreciate your view points in this regard. Thank You. Srinivasan. / ALL-NEW Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 Namaskaram. Your query is very interesting. And, It made me introspect. I don't know the perfect answer. Only our Acharyas can give that. But, Let us share our thoughts in this satsang. Please take it as opinions and not an answer. Our scriptures have given different roles for purusha and stree. However, the scriptures don't try to assign "higher" or "lower" levels to anyone. A very careful scrutiny of the sashtras will reveal that they tend to protect "stree". That is because a female form is more important and more crucial to our religion. (In chess, Whom do you protect - a king or queen?). Our anushtanam (daily scriptures) will be preserved only through the support of ladies. Without anushtanams, our religion will go the way of Christianity. A purusha has a tough life prescribed in sashtras. A stree can just obtain the same result by simply taking care of his family and purusha. (This however is not acceptable to modern feminists. But, that is another horrible manifestation of our times!) As per sashtras, for example, a stree gets 50% punyam done by his purusha. Also, He gets 50% SINS committed by the lady. But, the lady retains ALL 100% of the punyam done by her. This equation works always to the advantage of the lady. The kind motherly scriptures have personified God in the general form of Man. Because, A Man is the active part of the world. (He is the matter and She is the power (shakthi) for operating that matter!). This is to synchronize the "personification" with the scriptures so that our mind can accept both the Godhead and also the scriptures. This is like super-imposing the human values on animals in panchatantra so that we will learn correct values. We aspire Him. And also follow him and the sashtras without apparent conflict of mind. Also, Worshipping of a female form with an "impure" mind is more difficult. A female form will conflict with our emotions and feelings for a beginner. He / She will then find the path more difficult. Only people with good poorva-punyas will get true bhakthi to Thayar. Aradhana of a female form is also much more stringent. Chariots, vahana sevai, abhishekam, kalyana utsavam etc. are very delicate and will require more perfection of mind. But, The God head has no gender. We should get this very clear. For example, in shree-studi, our acharya clearly says that Shriman narayana creates his mayas only to please and play with Thayar. In effect, He is the creator for the pleasure of Thayar. There is no "higher" and "lower" levels here. Bhakthi requires a platform of form. Certain assumptions have been made to make this Bhakthi grow faster. The aim is to fully become a bhaktha and not dwell in the means to it. Imagine re-writing the decimal system into binary system for everyday use. Will it be easier? Decimal system is not superior to binary, but has evolved. Imagine, re-writing the analog clock to decimal system (100 seconds = 1minute) will it be easier? But, the truth is, You can perceive the supreme brahman in any form you want. Islam doesn't personify God. Their Allah has no form or gender. Buddhism says the ultimate truth is "shunya" - an emptiness. Christianity talks of Holy Ghost without any form. So, In my opinion, they are unlike what you have said. Hare krishna! Jayaraman _____ Suchitra Srinivasan [suchisrini] 05 July 2004 19:49 Fwd: RE: Why does God have 2 wives? Dear Sri Jayaraman, Thank You for your explanation! It is very enlightening! Your statement " He takes a personification to help enable limited grasp of the unrealised mind" is wonderful and clarifies my question. I have one follow-up question to clear up my mind and understand this in full - I understand there is one Supreme Purusha and he has no forms and all forms belong to him. But while personifying God, don't we emphasize more on the "man" part by attaching a "man's" form to God. Our scriptures do depict Goddess Mahalakshmi, Kali taking various forms to destroy evil. But the balance seems to be in favour the "man" form of God. I think this has been the general trend in other religions as well be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism etc., where in the personification of God predominantly seems to be in Male form. The question I have is - Is this personification of God predominantly in male form/favour a general trend due to the way society has evolved in man's favour ever since (thus helping the common person understand the concept of God better by relating to the evolutionary world we live in) or Is there any subtle difference here that I am failing to understand. Thank You. Srinivasan. --- Jayaraman <jayaraman.v wrote: > "Jayaraman" <jayaraman.v > "'Suchitra Srinivasan'" <suchisrini, > <> > RE: Why does God have 2 > wives? > Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:12:00 +0530 > > Namaskaram > > I have no scholarly skill to quote scriptures and > pramanas for your query. > That will of-course come from eruidite scholars of > this sacred forum > shortly. > > But, I venture out to express the clarifications > of our gurus which I have > heard in this regard. > > The Godhead Shriya:pathi is everywhere. He is > vibhu. He is vishnu. He is > omnipresent. He has no form and all forms belong to > him. This is to be > understood very clearly. That is why Vedam worships > god in all the elements > of nature and also in pure chit (which is > consciousness). > > But, this consciousness has anata kalyana gunams. > (Unending sacred > qualities). > > For an unrealized soul, God is conceived through > various archa and other > avatarams. He takes a personification to help > enable limited grasp of the > unrealised mind. > > During such personification, The God head takes the > purusha form. This is > not the same like male / female combination of this > evolutionary world. > Purusha is independent and all other forms are > dependent on him. Vedam says > clearly that all living beings are dependent on this > purusha. he is the > only male out there. By Male, here we mean the > "manly" qualities a common > being will attach to. > > During such perceivement, All the sacred kalyana > gunas of this God head are > represented as his vibhutis. They are generally > represented as the female > consorts of the God. They are not "Wives" in the > normal colloquial sense. > They are in no way different from him. To quote the > famous kalidasa, they > are as united as the word and meaning (vAgarthAviva > sambruktau...). Shri is > no different from sridharan. Ma is not different > from madhavan. > > We can't say God has two "wives". That is putting > it little - pardon me > saying this - crudely. He also has divya devis like > brinda, shri, bhu, > neela and other vibhutis. > > Apart from these female consorts, The God head also > has many other special > attributes which are also treated as female > personification. Vishnu mAyA is > one of them. Mother Ganga arose from his feet, so > we can personify them as > its daughter. And so on. > > Please excuse me if there are any mistakes in this. > > Thanks > > Jayaraman > > > > > > _____ > > Suchitra Srinivasan > [suchisrini] > 05 July 2004 18:02 > > Why does God have 2 wives? > > > Hello All, > > I am new to this forum and I have been a staunch > devotee of SriManNarayana ever since I was born. > > However off late I have been struggling with a few > questions off late in my mind - > > 1) I am starting to question the fact that why did > God > have 2 wives? Is this whole concept of Vishnu with 2 > wives, a concept created by a man-dominated society > in > the past? > 2) Why wasn't having 2 wives considered unethical > when > God is expected to set an example for us all. > > I would appreciate your view points in this regard. > > Thank You. > Srinivasan. > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > <http://us.ard./SIG=129n2iqkr/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=gr > oups/S=1705077013:HM/EXP=1089119331/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://comp > anion.> click here > > <http://us.adserver./l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= > :HM/A=2128215/rand=368678573> > > _____ > > Links > > > * > / > > > * > > <?subject=Un> > > > > * > Terms of Service > <> . > > > Mail is new and improved - Check it out! <http://us.ard./SIG=129so3f4g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=gr oups/S=1705077013:HM/EXP=1089148125/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://comp anion.> click here <http://us.adserver./l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= :HM/A=2128215/rand=372769616> _____ * / * <?subject=Un> * Terms of Service <> . 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Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 , Hema Narayana <hemanarayana> wrote: > According to our Vishishtadvaita sindantham except Sriman Narayana , all others are Stree (women) and we are all wedded to him. > If I am wrong I request you to kinldy excuse me for the same. > Adiyal Hema Dear member, You are not wrong and neither is the VisishtAdvaitam siddhAntam. Modern medical science (ask any modern obstetrician & gynaecologist) confirms that every foetus in the human womb is first conceived as a female only. Clinical observation of human embryo in the first 4-6 weeks after conception has proved beyond doubt that foetal genitalia typically conforms in all cases to the female anatomical and physiological structure. In other words, all human foetus is conceived first as female only. It is only after a few weeks of conception that hormonal processes occur (testesterone in the case of male embryos and estrogen in the case of female embryos) and it is then that the foetus begins actually to transform into either a fully developed male or female. Human gender is determined in the womb first through hormonal change and only later through genetic or chromosomal manifestation (i.e through the preponderance of the "x" or "y" chromosomes). Make no mistake about it -- we were all once female ('sthri') before we became male('purusha'). If only this medical fact were made known more widely amongst the men of the world, they would have, I should think, far more respect for the opposite sex than they presently have. As for the VisishtAdvaita siddhAntam, it certainly knows what it is talking about when it says that we are all 'sthree-s' and there is only one 'purusha' -- the Supreme One, the "parama-purushan". Rgds, dAsan, Sudarshan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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