Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Overseas travel forbidden-Why? Dear Bhagavatas: This is one of the frequently asked questions that have also been answered as frequently. I discussed this issue with several Yathisreshtas and Acharyas of Bhagavad Ramanuja- Swami Desika Sampradaayam. I also put forward several arguments favoring the “crossing the oceans”: 1. When the Lord measured the three worlds in his Trivikrama Avataara, He is said to have measured everything including landmarks outside the narrow boundaries of Bharata varshaa and Bharatah KhaNDa. Obviously, while doing this, He did not choose to exclude regions outside India. If this is accepted, how could it be taboo to proceed overseas? 2. The very names “VaasudEva” “NaaraayaNa” and “VishNU”, are part of Vyapaka Mantras - meaning all-encompassing and that there is no place on earth or heavens NOT sanctified by the presence of the Lord. If this were so, how overseas countries could be disqualified for purposes of travel, especially for the kainkaryam of propagating the very “Naama Samkeertana” of the Lord? Does this not mean a disincentive in the performance of this Kainkaryam? 3. If Mount MEru is considered as the northernmost boundary of the Universe, all the landmass and seas lie to the South - as we say in our Sankalpam “mErOh dakshiNE paarsvE”, the question arises whether America, for example, is not included in this region? If included, what is the harm in crossing overseas to visit/settle there? 4. When a Bhaagavata inquired of an Acharya, whether he could go to USA for economic reasons (consequent on the brain drain occasioned by political circumstances back in India), the Acharya is reported to have replied “Periya TiruvaDIyE angu pOyaachu. Nee pOvadil taDai illai” meaning “Lord GaruDa, the bird vehicle of the Lord himself has taken his abode in America already. There is no bar to your going there” Obviously, he was referring to the bald eagle, the national bird of America. 5. Did not AnjanEya “cross the ocean” in search of Sri Sita? If he could do that, why not we? 6. Today’s renewal repair, renovation, reconstruction etc of temples and religious institutions need lot of money that only fund raising in foreign lands would seem to generate sufficient resource – necessitating frequent travels not only by lay folk but also by Acharyas who are supposed to be guardians of rectitude in terms of strict disciplines commanded in the Saastras. This is what I have gleaned from these discussions. While all these arguments appear very logical in the modern circumstances, it is true that foreign travel is not envisaged under any circumstances for all. This is especially so, in the case of Yathis (Renounced ones) who have a very strict code of conduct to adhere to in order to carry out their duties without let or hindrance, demanded by the special stage of life as ascetics (Sannyasis). Crossing the ocean was discouraged in the olden days for several other practical reasons: 1. The normal mode of transport in the olden days was the ship. It took long and in fact months on end to reach the landmark at the destination. With all and sundry with different levels of Aachaaram and AnushTaanam are clubbed together, it is very difficult to obse4ve the strict norms in an exclusive manner. This argument is not any more valid because, if one is able to shell out enough moneys on engaging private carrier, one may do so, obviating the above disturbance. 2. If some Aasoucham (like death) should take place during the long journey, the daily Tiru Aaradanam of the Lord cannot be performed and can be resumed only after completion of the Samskaras on reaching the nearest land port, Any interruption in the daily Tiru Aaradanam to the Lord was deemed worse than death especially in the case of Yathis, Even this argument can be met by the fact that today, one can reach the nearest airport within a few hours where the obsequies “apara prayOga samskaras” can be performed as quickly as possible so that the Nitya Tiru Aaradanam can be resumed with utmost expedition. 3. During travel by ship, they used to empty out the human wastes in the sea. Polluting the Seawaters is an unpardonable sin. Today, when the airplanes land at the nearest airport, the wastes are emptied out on the specially marked waste sites. Thus, this argument also has no force now. 4. But what really matters is that the water for needed for bath, ablution etc should be drawn only from one of the following four bodies of water viz., (i) Well (ii) Tank (iii) Lake and (iv) River. When you invite an Acharya say for a DOlai, the first question they would ask is whether there is a well in your home wherefrom water could be drawn. ONLY if the answer were in the affirmative, they would consent to come to your home for DOlai. This is as per the “Yathi Dharma Samuchhayam” of Yadhava Prakaasa, the Guru-turned-disciple of Bhagavad Ramanuja and emphasized by His Holiness ChinnaaNdavan Swami in his manual also bearing the same name of “Yathi Dharma Samuchhayam”. In a foreign country like U.S.A, for example, not only private wells are scarce but also it is also illegal (and punishable by law) to draw water direct from any of the sources mentioned above. The only water that is available is through the chemically treated water through pipes made of materials not approved in the Saastras. In "Sthaana VisEsha Adhikaara" of "Srimad Rahasya Traya saaram", Swami Desika has enumerated the places fit for the stay of Prapannas (Those who have done Prapatti). This enumeration does NOT include foreign countries. Swami Desika would have known the existence of foreign countries. In fact, seafaring Indians had already spread to and built temples in the Far East like Cambodia etc. History has recorded the well-chronicled invasion of Mohammed of Gazni and GhOri and Swami was himself a target of the fury of the notorious Muslim invaders under Malik Kaafur. If he had felt it OK to go abroad, he would certainly have recorded this based on appropriate PramANAs. In the absence of such mention, our Acharyas deem it "Swaroopa Viruddham" to venture abroad. In this connection, I may mention that in one of my visits to AhObila MaTam in Delhi for securing a translation from Kannada to Tamil of the handwritten Srimukham granted by His Holiness Prakritam Prakaala MaTam Jeeyar, the Swami who was in charge of offering Bikshai to H.H. Prakritam Azhagiya Singhar asked me to wait because he could not touch paper till Bikshai was over. (He is now the Srkaryam Swami of His Holiness). Such is the strict norms of Aachaaram that even the Kainkaryaparas are expected to follow, let alone the YathisrEshTas themselves! Dasoham Anbil Ramaswamy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Dear Bhagavadhas, Adiyen Kesavan Srinivasan from Chennai here. Adiyen really have a strongpoint to express here. I do admit to what Sri Ram Anbil has told in his views. But if all these are true and if America has it national bird as bald eagle, then why is that no Azhvar have gone to that place. Put it simply why is that the God has not incarnated himself outside India, excepting Srilanka. Why is that 108 Divya Desams and Abhimana Desams are found only in India. This by itself is an example that our great Azhvars have not recognized any place outside India worthy of seeing the God. Further when we do the Nithya Karma and in the Sankalpam, we come acroos an important terminology called *BARATHA VARUSHE*. Here what do we use when we do the same at say America etc. Can we say Baratha Varushe. Will not the THITHI change. Will not the entire surface on which we are doing the sankalpam change. With due regards and respects to all our Acharyas, one the one hand it is true that due to Anushtanams our great anchestors were very resluctant to go abroad. But there is an underlying fact or reason as well for ignoring these places. Adiyen need all Bhagavadhas valuable inputs on these views. We can then brainstorm into all the other persons views. It is true that we need money. But I wish to know whats the end point for this or where is the saturation level available for this. If everybody thinks like this, then I beleive noone will stay in India. Adiyen though being a novaice in this aspect and after seeing this, I need to really confess that, while we are creating awareness in America in a very long way, it is somewhat disheartening to state that the situation in India, our Bharatha Desam that people are really not there to maintain our Sampradhaya. There are only a handful to recite the 4000 Divya Prabandams, Sri Desika Sthotramala and our Acharya Mantras. Hence at this juncture lets seriously think that while everybody are thinking about Financially developing the Great Temples and their monumentary structure financially, it is equally important for us to analyse that its time to improve or develop the awareness of the Divaya Prabandhams and to sustain the great works done by our Anchestors. The entire Srivaishnava Society in India itself needs some re building and this can be done only if the handful of people who are currently in india take a firm step in developing the kids and the younger generation and teach them the importance of our Sampradhaya. Otherwise I am afraid that in course of time we will be in a situation that instead of our current debate on how to develop our Sampradaya in US and other reigions we will land up in a situation where we will be stuggling to develop our Sampradaya in India itself. For example I am a disciple of HH Andavan Ashramam and I find only a few who can claim that they know all the Acharya Thanians and recite them properly. I have made it a point to learn all our Poorvacharya Thanians and recite it regularly mainly due to my family background (Adiyen is the grandson of Kunkumam Varadhachar Swami, one of the premier Shisyas of Andavan Ashramam) and the interest created by my Parents especially my other. And this has to be created to all the budding youngsters of today. And to do this as a basic step I feel we need to stay on in India only for some more time. Adiyen apologise for anything told wrongly or expressed differently to all Bhagavadhas. I request the learned and aged people to guide through my views and give your valuable opinion regarding this. Dasan, Kesavan Srinivasan. --- Ram Anbil <Ramanbil wrote: > > > Overseas travel forbidden-Why? > > Dear Bhagavatas: > This is one of the frequently asked questions that > have also been answered > as frequently. > > I discussed this issue with several Yathisreshtas > and Acharyas of Bhagavad > Ramanuja- Swami Desika Sampradaayam. I also put > forward several arguments > favoring the “crossing the oceans”: > > 1. When the Lord measured the three worlds in his > Trivikrama Avataara, He is > said to have measured everything including landmarks > outside the narrow > boundaries of Bharata varshaa and Bharatah KhaNDa. > Obviously, while doing > this, He did not choose to exclude regions outside > India. If this is > accepted, how could it be taboo to proceed overseas? > > 2. The very names “VaasudEva” “NaaraayaNa” and > “VishNU”, are part of Vyapaka > Mantras - meaning all-encompassing and that there is > no place on earth or > heavens NOT sanctified by the presence of the Lord. > If this were so, how > overseas countries could be disqualified for > purposes of travel, especially > for the kainkaryam of propagating the very “Naama > Samkeertana” of the Lord? > Does this not mean a disincentive in the performance > of this Kainkaryam? > > 3. If Mount MEru is considered as the northernmost > boundary of the Universe, > all the landmass and seas lie to the South - as we > say in our Sankalpam > “mErOh dakshiNE paarsvE”, the question arises > whether America, for example, > is not included in this region? If included, what is > the harm in crossing > overseas to visit/settle there? > > 4. When a Bhaagavata inquired of an Acharya, whether > he could go to USA for > economic reasons (consequent on the brain drain > occasioned by political > circumstances back in India), the Acharya is > reported to have replied > “Periya TiruvaDIyE angu pOyaachu. Nee pOvadil taDai > illai” meaning “Lord > GaruDa, the bird vehicle of the Lord himself has > taken his abode in America > already. There is no bar to your going there” > Obviously, he was referring to > the bald eagle, the national bird of America. > > 5. Did not AnjanEya “cross the ocean” in search of > Sri Sita? If he could do > that, why not we? > > 6. Today’s renewal repair, renovation, > reconstruction etc of temples and > religious institutions need lot of money that only > fund raising in foreign > lands would seem to generate sufficient resource – > necessitating frequent > travels not only by lay folk but also by Acharyas > who are supposed to be > guardians of rectitude in terms of strict > disciplines commanded in the > Saastras. > > This is what I have gleaned from these discussions. > > While all these arguments appear very logical in the > modern circumstances, > it is true that foreign travel is not envisaged > under any circumstances for > all. This is especially so, in the case of Yathis > (Renounced ones) who have > a very strict code of conduct to adhere to in order > to carry out their > duties without let or hindrance, demanded by the > special stage of life as > ascetics (Sannyasis). > > Crossing the ocean was discouraged in the olden days > for several other > practical reasons: > > 1. The normal mode of transport in the olden days > was the ship. It took long > and in fact months on end to reach the landmark at > the destination. With all > and sundry with different levels of Aachaaram and > AnushTaanam are clubbed > together, it is very difficult to obse4ve the strict > norms in an exclusive > manner. This argument is not any more valid because, > if one is able to shell > out enough moneys on engaging private carrier, one > may do so, obviating the > above disturbance. > > 2. If some Aasoucham (like death) should take place > during the long journey, > the daily Tiru Aaradanam of the Lord cannot be > performed and can be resumed > only after completion of the Samskaras on reaching > the nearest land port, > Any interruption in the daily Tiru Aaradanam to the > Lord was deemed worse > than death especially in the case of Yathis, Even > this argument can be met > by the fact that today, one can reach the nearest > airport within a few hours > where the obsequies “apara prayOga samskaras” can be > performed as quickly as > possible so that the Nitya Tiru Aaradanam can be > resumed with utmost > expedition. > > 3. During travel by ship, they used to empty out the > human wastes in the > sea. Polluting the Seawaters is an unpardonable sin. > Today, when the > airplanes land at the nearest airport, the wastes > are emptied out on the > specially marked waste sites. Thus, this argument > also has no force now. > > 4. But what really matters is that the water for > needed for bath, ablution > etc should be drawn only from one of the following > four bodies of water > viz., (i) Well (ii) Tank (iii) Lake and (iv) River. > When you invite an > Acharya say for a DOlai, the first question they > would ask is whether there > is a well in your home wherefrom water could be > drawn. ONLY if the answer > were in the affirmative, they would consent to come > to your home for DOlai. > This is as per the “Yathi Dharma Samuchhayam” of > Yadhava Prakaasa, the > Guru-turned-disciple of Bhagavad Ramanuja and > emphasized by His Holiness > ChinnaaNdavan Swami in his manual also bearing the > same name of “Yathi > Dharma Samuchhayam”. > > In a foreign country like U.S.A, for example, not > only private wells are > scarce but also it is also illegal (and punishable > by law) to draw water > direct from any of the sources mentioned above. The > only water that is > available is through the chemically treated water > through pipes made of > materials not approved in the Saastras. > > In "Sthaana VisEsha Adhikaara" of "Srimad Rahasya > Traya saaram", Swami Desika has enumerated the > places fit for the stay of Prapannas (Those who have > done Prapatti). This enumeration does NOT include > foreign countries. Swami Desika would have known the > existence of foreign countries. In fact, seafaring > Indians had already spread to and built temples in > the Far East like Cambodia etc. History has recorded > the well-chronicled invasion of Mohammed of Gazni > and GhOri and Swami was himself a target of the fury > of the notorious Muslim invaders under Malik Kaafur. > If he had felt it OK to go abroad, he would > certainly have recorded this based on appropriate > PramANAs. In the absence of such mention, our > Acharyas deem it "Swaroopa Viruddham" to venture > abroad. > > In this connection, I may mention that in one of my > visits to AhObila MaTam > in Delhi for securing a translation from Kannada to > Tamil of the handwritten > Srimukham granted by His Holiness Prakritam Prakaala > MaTam Jeeyar, the Swami > who was in charge of offering Bikshai to H.H. > Prakritam Azhagiya Singhar > asked me to wait because he could not touch paper > till Bikshai was over. (He > is now the Srkaryam Swami of His Holiness). Such is > the strict norms of > Aachaaram that even the Kainkaryaparas are expected > to follow, let alone the > YathisrEshTas themselves! > > Dasoham > === message truncated === Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Sri RAmajayam SrimathE GopAla DEsika MahA DEsikAya Namaha Dear BhAgavathAs, AdiyEn concur with Sri.KEsavan Srinivasan. In fact AdiyEn was reading through Sri Vishnu PurAna (authored by Srimad Azhagiyasinghar in Swami's poorvasramam), where there is a clear depiction of the land (Bharatha KandE --> Bharatha VarshE), how the Lord is worshipped here and how this land is suitable for karma & MOksha SAdhyOpAya. The land is considered so sacred not just by ManushyAs, but by DEvAs too. Here Swami mentions that DEvas even though they are enjoying the "Punya-phala", they are never really happy, as they constantly fear where they will fall once their "Punya-Phala" is consumed. There are specific verses elucidated by Srimad Azhagiyasinghar. In fact several kings after partitioning of the land with chariot's wheel even renounced their kingdom to do penance at places like SAlagrAm, NaimisAranyam, AyOdhyA, Pushkaram, Gaya KurukshEthram, Kanchipuram...Eg.Bathing at Pushkaram for 12 consequetive years in the month of KArthikai, or donating a cow to a brahmAn in KurukshEthra, laying pindam to ancestors at Akshaya Vatam brings one and his/her ancestors and successors great punyA which eventually leads the ancestry/progeny to get a righteous birth to focus on Vishnu MArgA. Also can there be a place equivalent to Satyavratha KshEtras (like KAnchipuram) abroad....? Every place on earth is blessed with the Lord's feet (Trivikrama AvatAram), but in the same rationale the lord is all pervading and rightfully called "Vishnu" (KArana pEyar). So his presence amidst us does not make us realized, unless we make efforts to have AnukUlya Sankalpam and PrAthikUlya Varjanam and seeking his KatAksham with SAtvika ThyAgam, MahA VisvAsam and GoptrutvAranam. Whereever AdiyEn mention Divya Dhampathis, one can substitute/complement it with VEdas --> Upanishads --> AchAryAs --> AchArya Sri PAdukAs. So what AdiyEn request is - lets put aside our speculations on how well some BhAgavathAs do their KarmAs outside India or whether people do KarmAs in India etc, and make a resolve, 1. To come back to Bharatha Kandam whenever we can and stay here however long we can and visit the Divya DEsam and KshEtras. 2. If not read about the Divya DEsam and the KshEtrAs to constantly think about them, and let the Divya Dhampathis reside in our heart, while we rejoice being with him in our "manak kadal". This way we can visit the Divya DEsam in our heart even while we are abroad, when we are old or even when we are physically unwell too. Recall Azhvaar's pasuram here.."thanikadalaE, thaniulagE enru unakku idamAi irukka... en manak kadalill vazha vantha mAya manAla nambi". 3. Keeping in rejoiceful worship 12 SAlagrAma wherever we are makes the place a kshEtra. If not have atleast one, which sanctifies the home with his presence. AdiyEn have heard that a person without Swaroopam adorned with Thiruman KApu is considered PrEdham (corpse) and a house without SAlagrAma as a cemetary. So lets create an abode of god wherever we are. Griha PravEsam is to invite the Divya Dhampathis home, and if one recalls a cow is brought immediately after PerumAl where the cow is facing the back-side (Lakshmi). 4. As far as possible perform Nitya/Naimithika karmas in this karma bhoomi (India). AdiyEn Sri RAmAnuja DAsan, Sudarsana DAsOsmi --- s kesavan <asvkesavan wrote: > > > Dear Bhagavadhas, > > Adiyen Kesavan Srinivasan from Chennai here. Adiyen > really have a strongpoint to express here. I do > admit > to what Sri Ram Anbil has told in his views. But if > all these are true and if America has it national > bird > as bald eagle, then why is that no Azhvar have gone > to > that place. Put it simply why is that the God has > not > incarnated himself outside India, excepting > Srilanka. > Why is that 108 Divya Desams and Abhimana Desams are > found only in India. This by itself is an example > that > our great Azhvars have not recognized any place > outside India worthy of seeing the God. > Further when we do the Nithya Karma and in the > Sankalpam, we come acroos an important terminology > called *BARATHA VARUSHE*. Here what do we use when > we > do the same at say America etc. Can we say Baratha > Varushe. Will not the THITHI change. Will not the > entire surface on which we are doing the sankalpam > change. > With due regards and respects to all our Acharyas, > one > the one hand it is true that due to Anushtanams our > great anchestors were very resluctant to go abroad. > But there is an underlying fact or reason as well > for > ignoring these places. > Adiyen need all Bhagavadhas valuable inputs on these > views. We can then brainstorm into all the other > persons views. It is true that we need money. But I > wish to know whats the end point for this or where > is > the saturation level available for this. If > everybody > thinks like this, then I beleive noone will stay in > India. > Adiyen though being a novaice in this aspect and > after > seeing this, I need to really confess that, while we > are creating awareness in America in a very long > way, > it is somewhat disheartening to state that the > situation in India, our Bharatha Desam that people > are > really not there to maintain our Sampradhaya. There > are only a handful to recite the 4000 Divya > Prabandams, Sri Desika Sthotramala and our Acharya > Mantras. Hence at this juncture lets seriously think > that while everybody are thinking about Financially > developing the Great Temples and their monumentary > structure financially, it is equally important for > us > to analyse that its time to improve or develop the > awareness of the Divaya Prabandhams and to sustain > the > great works done by our Anchestors. > The entire Srivaishnava Society in India itself > needs > some re building and this can be done only if the > handful of people who are currently in india take a > firm step in developing the kids and the younger > generation and teach them the importance of our > Sampradhaya. Otherwise I am afraid that in course of > time we will be in a situation that instead of our > current debate on how to develop our Sampradaya in > US > and other reigions we will land up in a situation > where we will be stuggling to develop our Sampradaya > in India itself. For example I am a disciple of HH > Andavan Ashramam and I find only a few who can claim > that they know all the Acharya Thanians and recite > them properly. I have made it a point to learn all > our > Poorvacharya Thanians and recite it regularly mainly > due to my family background (Adiyen is the grandson > of > Kunkumam Varadhachar Swami, one of the premier > Shisyas > of Andavan Ashramam) and the interest created by my > Parents especially my other. And this has to be > created to all the budding youngsters of today. And > to > do this as a basic step I feel we need to stay on in > India only for some more time. > > Adiyen apologise for anything told wrongly or > expressed differently to all Bhagavadhas. I request > the learned and aged people to guide through my > views > and give your valuable opinion regarding this. > > Dasan, > Kesavan Srinivasan. > --- Ram Anbil <Ramanbil wrote: > > > > > > > Overseas travel forbidden-Why? > > > > Dear Bhagavatas: > > This is one of the frequently asked questions that > > have also been answered > > as frequently. > > > > I discussed this issue with several Yathisreshtas > > and Acharyas of Bhagavad > > Ramanuja- Swami Desika Sampradaayam. I also put > > forward several arguments > > favoring the “crossing the oceans”: > > > > 1. When the Lord measured the three worlds in his > > Trivikrama Avataara, He is > > said to have measured everything including > landmarks > > outside the narrow > > boundaries of Bharata varshaa and Bharatah KhaNDa. > > Obviously, while doing > > this, He did not choose to exclude regions outside > > India. If this is > > accepted, how could it be taboo to proceed > overseas? > > > > 2. The very names “VaasudEva” “NaaraayaNa” and > > “VishNU”, are part of Vyapaka > > Mantras - meaning all-encompassing and that there > is > > no place on earth or > > heavens NOT sanctified by the presence of the > Lord. > > If this were so, how > > overseas countries could be disqualified for > > purposes of travel, especially > > for the kainkaryam of propagating the very “Naama > > Samkeertana” of the Lord? > > Does this not mean a disincentive in the > performance > > of this Kainkaryam? > > > > 3. If Mount MEru is considered as the northernmost > > boundary of the Universe, > > all the landmass and seas lie to the South - as we > > say in our Sankalpam > > “mErOh dakshiNE paarsvE”, the question arises > > whether America, for example, > > is not included in this region? If included, what > is > > the harm in crossing > > overseas to visit/settle there? > > > > 4. When a Bhaagavata inquired of an Acharya, > whether > > he could go to USA for > > economic reasons (consequent on the brain drain > > occasioned by political > > circumstances back in India), the Acharya is > > reported to have replied > > “Periya TiruvaDIyE angu pOyaachu. Nee pOvadil > taDai > > illai” meaning “Lord > > GaruDa, the bird vehicle of the Lord himself has > > taken his abode in America > > already. There is no bar to your going there” > > Obviously, he was referring to > > the bald eagle, the national bird of America. > > > > 5. Did not AnjanEya “cross the ocean” in search of > > Sri Sita? If he could do > > that, why not we? > > > > 6. Today’s renewal repair, renovation, > > reconstruction etc of temples and > > religious institutions need lot of money that only > > fund raising in foreign > > lands would seem to generate sufficient resource – > > necessitating frequent > > travels not only by lay folk but also by Acharyas > > who are supposed to be > > guardians of rectitude in terms of strict > > disciplines commanded in the > > Saastras. > > > > This is what I have gleaned from these > discussions. > > > > While all these arguments appear very logical in > the > > modern circumstances, > > it is true that foreign travel is not envisaged > > under any circumstances for > > all. This is especially so, in the case of Yathis > > (Renounced ones) who have > > a very strict code of conduct to adhere to in > order > === message truncated === Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.