Fwd: [t'venkatam] Karma Bhoomi/ bhogha bhoomi

[Guest guest]

tiruvenkatam, "Sudarshan K Madabushi"

<mksudarshan2002> wrote:

 

 

Dear members,

 

In the light of recent discussions (on T'venkatam list and others as

well) about the land of India being a "karma-bhoomi" and the Western

nations being "bhOgha-bhoomi", I thought an old posting of mine from

the Tiruvenkatam archives may perhaps be of interest/relevance to

some of you. I reproduce it below.

 

Please feel free to discuss the topic again on the T'venkatam list

if you feel the need for it.

 

Regards,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

********************

 

 

--- "Mukundan <krupa@s...>" <krupa@s...> wrote:

> Dear srI. Sudarshan Swami,

>

> From Srimad-Bhagavatham, we know that Bharatham is the Only Karma

> Bhoomi. Other regions have been defined as Bhoga Bhoomi et al, with

> > some dEvathAs incharge. Can you kindly elaborate on this.

> > Also, I would like to know how our SiddhAntham views the

existence of living-beings in Other distant planets.

>

> dAsan

> Mukundan

> Singapore

 

**************

 

Dear Sri.Mukundan,

It's a very interesting question you raise. There is no easy answer

to it. I will try however to provide one to the best of my

meagre knowledge.

 

Please remember that the word "bhOga" means self-gratification,

enjoyment or delighting. And the word "karma", as used in this

context here, means "self-renunciation".

 

The saying that "bhAratham" is "karma-bhUmi" and the rest of the

world is "karma-bhUmi" is an age-old and very popular one, no doubt.

But as far as I know it is not founded on any clear texts from the

Veda.

 

As you know, the majesty of Vedic appeal is universal in its sweep.

The Vedas do not confine themselves to bias such as "bhAratham" or

elsewhere. The Vedas give expression to universal principles and

cosmic aspiration. They do not recognize any geographical boundaries,

least of all that of India. The ageless 'sruti' know no barriers,

neither natural nor man-made, and hence do not speak in such narrow

terms.

 

The statement -- that "bhAratham" is "karma-bhUmi" and other nations

are "bhOga-bhUmi" --- is, if you examine it very carefully, a very

ambiguous one. It leaves us rather unsure whether it is meant to

present the land of India in good or bad light. Is it meant to convey

pride or patriotism for India? Or is it that by contrasting

"karma-bhUmi" with "bhOga-bhUmi" it is trying to say something

against other lands? We may ask, is there no "bhOga" at all in

"bhAratham"? And conversely, is there no "karma" at all in nations

other than "bhAratham"? All these questions and ambivalent feelings

crop up in our minds when we examine the statement closely.

 

References to "karma-bhUmi" in the 'purAnA-s' are very, very rare

indeed. Apart from the famous reference in the 'Srimadh Bhagavatham'

one can hardly find it repeated in any other 'purAnA' (except

perhaps, one may argue, in the "bhavishya-purANa" where a reference

in far less similar form is made to the lands in the River

Tambraparani basin in T.Nadu). Nowhere else in the "purAnA-s" (to the

best of adiyane's limited knowledge) can one come across any

reference to lands other than 'bhAratham' being "bhOga-bhUmi". It is

my opinion that the word "bhOga-bhumi" first came into use only as

late as in the 1880-s CE when Swami Vivekananda used it to describe

the land of America while he was touring that country giving his

famous series of lectures.

 

Let's turn to the actual reference to "karma-bhUmi" in 'Srimadh

BhAgavatham':

 

etadeva hi deva gAyanti:

 

ahO amIsham kimakAri shObanam

prasanna esAm sviduta svayam harIh:

yairjanma labdham nrshu bhAratAjIrE

mukunda sevaupayikam sprhA hi nah: -

 

kim dushkarair nah kratubhih tapOvrataih

dAnAdibhirvA dyujayEna phalgunA;

na yatrA nArAyaNa pAdapankaja

smritih pramushtAti sayEndriyOtsavAt --

 

kalpa yUshAm sthAna jayAt punarbhavAt

kshanA yushAm bhAratabhUjayO varam;

kshanEna martyEna krtam manasvinah:

sannyasya samyAntya bhayam padam harE: -

 

"srimadh bhAgavatham" (V.xix. 20-22):

********* ************

 

The above verses have been translated as follows:

 

"The gods in Heaven sang of the glory of human birth in the

land called "bhArata" (India):

 

"Oh, What good deeds have these souls done

That Hari, the indweller of all things,

Has seen it fit to reward them

With birth in the continent of India --

A birth that enables a life of loving service unto Him!

 

Oh! What would we not do to earn such reward ourselves?

After all, what have we the denizens of these heavens achieved

Through years and years of austere 'tapa' fasting and charity?

The joys of heaven are ours to feast, no doubt,

But alas, the remembrance of Narayana still escapes us...

 

Far better, we think, it is to live in India

Even if for but a few moments,

Than ages in these heavenly provinces --

FOr there great souls,

Fearless, free and merry--

Having renounced all unto the feet of God

Live forever in Him!

 

*********************************

 

If you notice in the verse as well as in the translation, nowhere is

there mention of "bhAratha" as being "karma-bhUmi" -- that specific

word is not used at all. What is said is that the "dEvA-s" are

envious of earthlings who live in the land called "bhAratam". Now why

are they envious? Because human beings in this land are able to

perform undisturbed 'service to Narayana' -- mukunda sevaupayikam. In

other words, the people of India live a happy life of complete

renunciation.

 

There is a very interesting truth here to note.

 

The 'dEvas' live in the celestial worlds ("svarga"). There is no

dearth of delight ("bhOga") in those worlds. The right to enjoy such

celestial "bhOga" was earned by the devas through strenuous "tapa"

and "dAna" -- tapOvrataih dAnAdibhirvA -- i.e. through ceaseless

work, sacrifice and strife.

 

Yet, the Bhagavatham tells us that the dEvas were still fond of

whining and moaning about their plight! And what do they complain

about? They say humans in the land of India are better off! Now why

do they say so? Because there is no sense of fulfillment in the

celestial worlds. A sense of consummation, or a sense of complete

soulful satisfaction eludes the world of devas even.

 

The plight of the devas in the celestial world and those of us here

who live in the so-called "bhOga-bhUmi-s" of the Western world are

not dissimilar.

 

Living in a nation or society that has the highest standards of

living is in itself really no perfect guarantee for individual

happiness. We can live anywhere we choose, enjoying all kinds of

self-gratification through every conceivable means of "bhOga". And

yet (as we see in many countries even today) we may not be able to

escape suffering, fear, misery and unhappiness.

 

The purpose of the above verse from Srimadh Bhagavatham is really

thus, I think, not to glorify the physical landscape of India or for

that matter any other in the world. Its chief purpose is only to

help us understand that the greatest of "bhOga-bhUmi-s" is no source

of happiness -- not for humans, not for devas -- if in such a land

there is no opportunity for 'nArAyaNa pAdapankaja smritih'... the

unending contemplation of God and loving service to Him.

 

The "bhOga" available plentifully in a land may be the fruit of

"tapas" and "dAna" -- of ceaseless work, sacrifice and strife. But if

such "bhOga" distracts one away from or, worse still, impedes

"nArAyaNa smritih' or "mukunda seva upayikam" -- of what

use then is living in such a land? The devas in the Bhagavatham hence

are seen to exclaim, "Better to live in the land of humans, where

means of "bhOga" are far inferior and yet be able to sing the Glory

of God, than to live in this 'svarga' and lose all thought of Him!

 

******** ************ *********

 

The "bhAratham" of the Srimadh Bhagavatham days was obviously a

nation where "nArAyaNa pAdapankaja smritih" was widely prevalent

amongst the peoples. Which is why Sage Vyasa, the author of Srimadh

Bhagavatham, perhaps made the 'devAs' appear as being very envious

of the citizens of India.

 

Whether such a similar state as Vyasa witnessed in his times exists

today in present-day India or, for that matter, anywhere else in the

world, is matter we can only debate about. One thing though can be

surely said: the real land of 'bhAratham' lies wherever there is

true and constant "nArAyana-smritih".

 

Regards,

dAsan,

 

Sudarshan

--- End of archived message ---

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

SRI HARI

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY SRI

SUDARSHAN SWAMI. HOWEVER, I WOULD LIKE TO CAUTION THE

DEVOTEES THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE T AKEN FOR GRANTED T

HAT IT IS NECESSARY TO GO ABROAD TO EARN A LOT IN

ORDER TO DO BHAGAVAT OR BHAAGAVATA OR ACHARYA

KAINKARYA. IF ONE IS IN CONSTANT SATSANG WHEREVER HE

IS, THEN THERE IS NO PROBLEM AT ALL. THE QUESTION IS:

IS IT REALLY POSSIBLE TO BE ABSORBED IN SATSANGAM

WHILE STAYING ABROAD? THE MATERIAL OPULANCE, THE

COMFORTS, WHICH ARE ALMOST LIKE INDRA LOKA CAN EASILY

MISGUIDE A SINCERE DEVOTEE. THE MATERIAL WORLD CAN

ALSO MISGUIDE ONE EVEN IN BHARATAVARSHA BUT THERE ARE

PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR A SATSANG. IT IS A RISK

ABROAD. LET THE YOUNGER GENERATION NOT CONFUSE THAT

IT IS INEVITABLE TO GO ABROAD IN ORDER TO SERVE THE

ACHARYA.

I BOW DOWN TO THE LOTUS FEET OF ALL THE SRIVAISHNAVAS

WHO ARE CONTRIBUTING THEIR MIGHT FOR THE GROWTH OF OUR

SAMPRADAYAM EVEN WHEN THERE ARE STAYING AWAY FROM

THEIR MOTHERLAND, THE BHARATAVARSHA. LET ME ALSO

REQUEST THEM TO PREACH ABOUT THE SATSANG WHICH IS

APLENTY IN INDIA TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION. I HOPE

THAT SOMEDAY ALL THE SRIVAISHNAVAS ABROAD WILL COME

AND SETTLE IN INDIA, ONCE THEIR TARGET FIGURE IS

REACHED.

I SINCERELY PRAY TO SWAMI DESIKAN, MY MENTOR AND

MASTER, FOR THE SAME.

DAASAN

E.S.MUKUNDAN

KINDLY PARDON ME IF I SOUND HARSH.

--- Sudarshan K Madabushi

<mksudarshan2002 wrote:

 

>

>

> tiruvenkatam, "Sudarshan K

> Madabushi"

> <mksudarshan2002> wrote:

>

>

> Dear members,

>

> In the light of recent discussions (on T'venkatam

> list and others as

> well) about the land of India being a "karma-bhoomi"

> and the Western

> nations being "bhOgha-bhoomi", I thought an old

> posting of mine from

> the Tiruvenkatam archives may perhaps be of

> interest/relevance to

> some of you. I reproduce it below.

>

> Please feel free to discuss the topic again on the

> T'venkatam list

> if you feel the need for it.

>

> Regards,

>

> dAsan,

> Sudarshan

>

> ********************

>

>

> --- "Mukundan <krupa@s...>" <krupa@s...> wrote:

> > Dear srI. Sudarshan Swami,

> >

> > From Srimad-Bhagavatham, we know that Bharatham is

> the Only Karma

> > Bhoomi. Other regions have been defined as Bhoga

> Bhoomi et al, with

> > > some dEvathAs incharge. Can you kindly elaborate

> on this.

> > > Also, I would like to know how our SiddhAntham

> views the

> existence of living-beings in Other distant planets.

> >

> > dAsan

> > Mukundan

> > Singapore

>

> **************

>

> Dear Sri.Mukundan,

> It's a very interesting question you raise. There is

> no easy answer

> to it. I will try however to provide one to the best

> of my

> meagre knowledge.

>

> Please remember that the word "bhOga" means

> self-gratification,

> enjoyment or delighting. And the word "karma", as

> used in this

> context here, means "self-renunciation".

>

> The saying that "bhAratham" is "karma-bhUmi" and the

> rest of the

> world is "karma-bhUmi" is an age-old and very

> popular one, no doubt.

> But as far as I know it is not founded on any clear

> texts from the

> Veda.

>

> As you know, the majesty of Vedic appeal is

> universal in its sweep.

> The Vedas do not confine themselves to bias such as

> "bhAratham" or

> elsewhere. The Vedas give expression to universal

> principles and

> cosmic aspiration. They do not recognize any

> geographical boundaries,

> least of all that of India. The ageless 'sruti' know

> no barriers,

> neither natural nor man-made, and hence do not speak

> in such narrow

> terms.

>

> The statement -- that "bhAratham" is "karma-bhUmi"

> and other nations

> are "bhOga-bhUmi" --- is, if you examine it very

> carefully, a very

> ambiguous one. It leaves us rather unsure whether it

> is meant to

> present the land of India in good or bad light. Is

> it meant to convey

> pride or patriotism for India? Or is it that by

> contrasting

> "karma-bhUmi" with "bhOga-bhUmi" it is trying to say

> something

> against other lands? We may ask, is there no "bhOga"

> at all in

> "bhAratham"? And conversely, is there no "karma" at

> all in nations

> other than "bhAratham"? All these questions and

> ambivalent feelings

> crop up in our minds when we examine the statement

> closely.

>

> References to "karma-bhUmi" in the 'purAnA-s' are

> very, very rare

> indeed. Apart from the famous reference in the

> 'Srimadh Bhagavatham'

> one can hardly find it repeated in any other

> 'purAnA' (except

> perhaps, one may argue, in the "bhavishya-purANa"

> where a reference

> in far less similar form is made to the lands in the

> River

> Tambraparani basin in T.Nadu). Nowhere else in the

> "purAnA-s" (to the

> best of adiyane's limited knowledge) can one come

> across any

> reference to lands other than 'bhAratham' being

> "bhOga-bhUmi". It is

> my opinion that the word "bhOga-bhumi" first came

> into use only as

> late as in the 1880-s CE when Swami Vivekananda used

> it to describe

> the land of America while he was touring that

> country giving his

> famous series of lectures.

>

> Let's turn to the actual reference to "karma-bhUmi"

> in 'Srimadh

> BhAgavatham':

>

> etadeva hi deva gAyanti:

>

> ahO amIsham kimakAri shObanam

> prasanna esAm sviduta svayam harIh:

> yairjanma labdham nrshu bhAratAjIrE

> mukunda sevaupayikam sprhA hi nah: -

>

> kim dushkarair nah kratubhih tapOvrataih

> dAnAdibhirvA dyujayEna phalgunA;

> na yatrA nArAyaNa pAdapankaja

> smritih pramushtAti sayEndriyOtsavAt --

>

> kalpa yUshAm sthAna jayAt punarbhavAt

> kshanA yushAm bhAratabhUjayO varam;

> kshanEna martyEna krtam manasvinah:

> sannyasya samyAntya bhayam padam harE: -

>

> "srimadh bhAgavatham"

> (V.xix. 20-22):

> ********* ************

>

> The above verses have been translated as follows:

>

> "The gods in Heaven sang of the glory of human birth

> in the

> land called "bhArata" (India):

>

> "Oh, What good deeds have these souls done

> That Hari, the indweller of all things,

> Has seen it fit to reward them

> With birth in the continent of India --

> A birth that enables a life of loving service unto

> Him!

>

> Oh! What would we not do to earn such reward

> ourselves?

> After all, what have we the denizens of these

> heavens achieved

> Through years and years of austere 'tapa' fasting

> and charity?

> The joys of heaven are ours to feast, no doubt,

> But alas, the remembrance of Narayana still escapes

> us...

>

> Far better, we think, it is to live in India

> Even if for but a few moments,

> Than ages in these heavenly provinces --

> FOr there great souls,

> Fearless, free and merry--

> Having renounced all unto the feet of God

> Live forever in Him!

>

> *********************************

>

> If you notice in the verse as well as in the

> translation, nowhere is

> there mention of "bhAratha" as being "karma-bhUmi"

> -- that specific

> word is not used at all. What is said is that the

> "dEvA-s" are

> envious of earthlings who live in the land called

> "bhAratam". Now why

> are they envious? Because human beings in this land

> are able to

> perform undisturbed 'service to Narayana' -- mukunda

> sevaupayikam. In

> other words, the people of India live a happy life

> of

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

 

I am so pleased that you addressed this question. I have lived in this

country for over forty years and wish to express my views. I find several

difficulties in both cultures as well as some assets that each culture

offers. If we are not careful we can take bad from both cultures and a

big looser. On the other hand we can also gather 'good' from both

cultures and a be a big winner. So, it is important to know the good and

bad in both cultures! So, what are they?

 

In India, we are born in that culture. So what are the possible plusses

and minuses?

Our assets are obvious: Immense availability of knowledge, temples,

culture, parents, people with real knowledge religious books everywhere.

Where else can you buy Puranas for few rupees in your own language? Where

else can you get the best Puliyodarai and Chakkera Pongal?

Difficulties are not obvious: These are:

Taking assets for granted and end up with a feeling of cultural

superiority with out earning by learning and practicing it!

Being satisfied with extremely peripheral knowledge, and feeling that we

have already achieved it.

Thinking that seeing Swamiji is all we need to do, not necessarily

studying.

Waiting for somebody to give us all of the knowledge, not exerting

ourselves.

Our prejudices of casts and reverse prejudices. Find excuses in the cast

system for our failures.

The new materialistic notions in India are worse than here. Copying west

for copying sake is leading a plastic life.

The last which I find is so difficult to put your finger on; the teachers

are also faulty, they sit in too high pedestals, they lecture and do not

come down and discuss at your level, the students are too lazy for better

communication.

What are the plusses and minuses in USA?

Lack of knowledge, temples, culture etc (being corrected slowly).

US gives Training of regimented life and purposeful living.

Learn the value of physical and material achievement. I wonder how many

really appreciate the West and its achievement. There are too many new

comers that are enjoying the fruits of the West without any appreciation

of how it got there! How much hard work and self sacrifice went into

building this nation. There are too many simplistic answers, such as

'they have money they can do' or ' they stole from Naive Americans'

without any effort in finding who they are etc. Many Indians live here

gathering things but have no commitment to this nation or India!

There is tremendous amount of Spirituality in this nation and growing.

But it is based on self effort. Here it is hard to teach surrender.

Here one can learn to study our scriptures by using the basics of this

culture more thoroughly than India. The main problem is the excuse of 'no

time'.

Here one can practice Yama and Niyama more vigorously because of the

overall attitude of Puritanical culture here!

Going back to India is a meaningless advice because God is everywhere and

Saintliness is everywhere. It is in the person to look for it. Not even a

very small fraction of India is saintly. It appears here also in

different clothing and one can find it if it is in you to start with.

That is Swamiji's teaching! Sriman Narayana is not just in India. The

present day situation is to make that teaching come here by hard work and

real practice. We can learn a lot from the organizational ability of the

Western Religions and Spiritualists. Do we have the stamina to sustain

it? Do we have the stamina to build it and organize it and manage it. I

am afraid to say that till now it has been quite poor. We have to learn,

modify and organize in more workable ways and not preach everyone to go

back. That is silly and mot practical or a good advice. The modern world

is to expand, not to go back to be little people we have been and

complain that everybody is trying to convert us. Let us organize

ourselves better and bring the torch of our teachings everywhere!

 

With reverence to Vishnavas and Vishnavism

Gopi Chari

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Gopi Chari,

 

Your views are so very well stated and I'm taking the

liberty of copying it to the Tiruvenkatam Group so

that other members there will be able to read it and

perhaps respond too.

 

Thank you,

Regds,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

 

 

--- Gopi Chari <ekcvv wrote:

> Dear Sir,

>

> I am so pleased that you addressed this question. I

> have lived in this

> country for over forty years and wish to express my

> views. I find several

> difficulties in both cultures as well as some assets

> that each culture

> offers. If we are not careful we can take bad from

> both cultures and a

> big looser. On the other hand we can also gather

> 'good' from both

> cultures and a be a big winner. So, it is important

> to know the good and

> bad in both cultures! So, what are they?

>

> In India, we are born in that culture. So what are

> the possible plusses

> and minuses?

> Our assets are obvious: Immense availability of

> knowledge, temples,

> culture, parents, people with real knowledge

> religious books everywhere.

> Where else can you buy Puranas for few rupees in

> your own language? Where

> else can you get the best Puliyodarai and Chakkera

> Pongal?

> Difficulties are not obvious: These are:

> Taking assets for granted and end up with a feeling

> of cultural

> superiority with out earning by learning and

> practicing it!

> Being satisfied with extremely peripheral knowledge,

> and feeling that we

> have already achieved it.

> Thinking that seeing Swamiji is all we need to do,

> not necessarily

> studying.

> Waiting for somebody to give us all of the

> knowledge, not exerting

> ourselves.

> Our prejudices of casts and reverse prejudices. Find

> excuses in the cast

> system for our failures.

> The new materialistic notions in India are worse

> than here. Copying west

> for copying sake is leading a plastic life.

> The last which I find is so difficult to put your

> finger on; the teachers

> are also faulty, they sit in too high pedestals,

> they lecture and do not

> come down and discuss at your level, the students

> are too lazy for better

> communication.

> What are the plusses and minuses in USA?

> Lack of knowledge, temples, culture etc (being

> corrected slowly).

> US gives Training of regimented life and purposeful

> living.

> Learn the value of physical and material

> achievement. I wonder how many

> really appreciate the West and its achievement.

> There are too many new

> comers that are enjoying the fruits of the West

> without any appreciation

> of how it got there! How much hard work and self

> sacrifice went into

> building this nation. There are too many simplistic

> answers, such as

> 'they have money they can do' or ' they stole from

> Naive Americans'

> without any effort in finding who they are etc. Many

> Indians live here

> gathering things but have no commitment to this

> nation or India!

> There is tremendous amount of Spirituality in this

> nation and growing.

> But it is based on self effort. Here it is hard to

> teach surrender.

> Here one can learn to study our scriptures by using

> the basics of this

> culture more thoroughly than India. The main problem

> is the excuse of 'no

> time'.

> Here one can practice Yama and Niyama more

> vigorously because of the

> overall attitude of Puritanical culture here!

> Going back to India is a meaningless advice because

> God is everywhere and

> Saintliness is everywhere. It is in the person to

> look for it. Not even a

> very small fraction of India is saintly. It appears

> here also in

> different clothing and one can find it if it is in

> you to start with.

> That is Swamiji's teaching! Sriman Narayana is not

> just in India. The

> present day situation is to make that teaching come

> here by hard work and

> real practice. We can learn a lot from the

> organizational ability of the

> Western Religions and Spiritualists. Do we have the

> stamina to sustain

> it? Do we have the stamina to build it and organize

> it and manage it. I

> am afraid to say that till now it has been quite

> poor. We have to learn,

> modify and organize in more workable ways and not

> preach everyone to go

> back. That is silly and mot practical or a good

> advice. The modern world

> is to expand, not to go back to be little people we

> have been and

> complain that everybody is trying to convert us. Let

> us organize

> ourselves better and bring the torch of our

> teachings everywhere!

>

> With reverence to Vishnavas and Vishnavism

> Gopi Chari

 

______________________

India Matrimony: Find your life partner online

Go to: http://.shaadi.com/india-matrimony

[Guest guest]

Respected Srivaishnavas

 

 

 

I think that except for the clerics (i.e. people in the priestly profession),

there is no restriction on Sri Vaishnavas to travel and settle abroad.

 

 

 

It is only the primary urge to make a decent living that has forced many a

Indian to go abroad and even settle down.

 

 

 

Thanks to modern communications he is able to communicate online and is able to

re-visit the motherland, occasionally.

 

 

 

The roots of many a person who have contributed in this electronic journal have

shown that at heart they continue to be a Srivaishnava and deeply revere the

Indian culture.

 

 

 

I find that there is really no need for a person who is Srivaishnava at heart to

come back and settle down back in India.

 

 

 

If that is the true and the same logic is applied to persons settled elsewhere

in India then what will happen to people like me whose forefathers have come

down and settled down in Hyderabad, two generations ago. Hyderabad has thrown up

several eminent "Srivaishnavas" who practice Srivaishnavism and by their shining

living (in spiritual terms) been a glorious example to others. I think that I am

as good a Srivaishnava as a Srivaishnava from Srirangam.

 

 

 

I think that I may not be able to agree with Sri Mukundan Swami when he finds

that it may become the bounden duty of all Srivaishnava to yearn and make it

possible to come down back to the India.

 

 

 

In this context we may see a more intent meaning in the words of the the Saint

when he told "Iruppidum Vaikundam, Vengadam"

 

 

 

It may not be out of place to note that the Head Quarters of the Jehovah

Witnesses is in New York and not in Israel or Sinai or Egypt or any biblical

country. Centuries hence I will not be surprised if New York or any city outside

India becomes the fountain head for Srivaishnavism. It is ultimately the

strength of the Satsang - in terms of quality and also numerical terms.

 

 

 

(I do not at all try to belittle my motherland which is undoubtedly the

Karmabhoomi).

 

 

 

Dasan Madhavan

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

elangadu santanam mukundan [mukundan_es]

Sat 2/5/2005 2:53 PM

Sudarshan K Madabushi;

Re: Fwd: Re: [t'venkatam] Karma Bhoomi/ bhogha bhoomi

 

 

 

 

 

SRI HARI

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY SRI

SUDARSHAN SWAMI. HOWEVER, I WOULD LIKE TO CAUTION THE

DEVOTEES THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE T AKEN FOR GRANTED T

HAT IT IS NECESSARY TO GO ABROAD TO EARN A LOT IN

ORDER TO DO BHAGAVAT OR BHAAGAVATA OR ACHARYA

KAINKARYA. IF ONE IS IN CONSTANT SATSANG WHEREVER HE

IS, THEN THERE IS NO PROBLEM AT ALL. THE QUESTION IS:

IS IT REALLY POSSIBLE TO BE ABSORBED IN SATSANGAM

WHILE STAYING ABROAD? THE MATERIAL OPULANCE, THE

COMFORTS, WHICH ARE ALMOST LIKE INDRA LOKA CAN EASILY

MISGUIDE A SINCERE DEVOTEE. THE MATERIAL WORLD CAN

ALSO MISGUIDE ONE EVEN IN BHARATAVARSHA BUT THERE ARE

PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR A SATSANG. IT IS A RISK

ABROAD. LET THE YOUNGER GENERATION NOT CONFUSE THAT

IT IS INEVITABLE TO GO ABROAD IN ORDER TO SERVE THE

ACHARYA.

I BOW DOWN TO THE LOTUS FEET OF ALL THE SRIVAISHNAVAS

WHO ARE CONTRIBUTING THEIR MIGHT FOR THE GROWTH OF OUR

SAMPRADAYAM EVEN WHEN THERE ARE STAYING AWAY FROM

THEIR MOTHERLAND, THE BHARATAVARSHA. LET ME ALSO

REQUEST THEM TO PREACH ABOUT THE SATSANG WHICH IS

APLENTY IN INDIA TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION. I HOPE

THAT SOMEDAY ALL THE SRIVAISHNAVAS ABROAD WILL COME

AND SETTLE IN INDIA, ONCE THEIR TARGET FIGURE IS

REACHED.

I SINCERELY PRAY TO SWAMI DESIKAN, MY MENTOR AND

MASTER, FOR THE SAME.

DAASAN

E.S.MUKUNDAN

KINDLY PARDON ME IF I SOUND HARSH.

--- Sudarshan K Madabushi

<mksudarshan2002 wrote:

 

>

>

> tiruvenkatam, "Sudarshan K

> Madabushi"

> <mksudarshan2002> wrote:

>

>

> Dear members,

>

> In the light of recent discussions (on T'venkatam

> list and others as

> well) about the land of India being a "karma-bhoomi"

> and the Western

> nations being "bhOgha-bhoomi", I thought an old

> posting of mine from

> the Tiruvenkatam archives may perhaps be of

> interest/relevance to

> some of you. I reproduce it below.

>

> Please feel free to discuss the topic again on the

> T'venkatam list

> if you feel the need for it.

>

> Regards,

>

> dAsan,

> Sudarshan

>

> ********************

>

>

> --- "Mukundan <krupa@s...>" <krupa@s...> wrote:

> > Dear srI. Sudarshan Swami,

> >

> > From Srimad-Bhagavatham, we know that Bharatham is

> the Only Karma

> > Bhoomi. Other regions have been defined as Bhoga

> Bhoomi et al, with

> > > some dEvathAs incharge. Can you kindly elaborate

> on this.

> > > Also, I would like to know how our SiddhAntham

> views the

> existence of living-beings in Other distant planets.

> >

> > dAsan

> > Mukundan

> > Singapore

>

> **************

>

> Dear Sri.Mukundan,

> It's a very interesting question you raise. There is

> no easy answer

> to it. I will try however to provide one to the best

> of my

> meagre knowledge.

>

> Please remember that the word "bhOga" means

> self-gratification,

> enjoyment or delighting. And the word "karma", as

> used in this

> context here, means "self-renunciation".

>

> The saying that "bhAratham" is "karma-bhUmi" and the

> rest of the

> world is "karma-bhUmi" is an age-old and very

> popular one, no doubt.

> But as far as I know it is not founded on any clear

> texts from the

> Veda.

>

> As you know, the majesty of Vedic appeal is

> universal in its sweep.

> The Vedas do not confine themselves to bias such as

> "bhAratham" or

> elsewhere. The Vedas give expression to universal

> principles and

> cosmic aspiration. They do not recognize any

> geographical boundaries,

> least of all that of India. The ageless 'sruti' know

> no barriers,

> neither natural nor man-made, and hence do not speak

> in such narrow

> terms.

>

> The statement -- that "bhAratham" is "karma-bhUmi"

> and other nations

> are "bhOga-bhUmi" --- is, if you examine it very

> carefully, a very

> ambiguous one. It leaves us rather unsure whether it

> is meant to

> present the land of India in good or bad light. Is

> it meant to convey

> pride or patriotism for India? Or is it that by

> contrasting

> "karma-bhUmi" with "bhOga-bhUmi" it is trying to say

> something

> against other lands? We may ask, is there no "bhOga"

> at all in

> "bhAratham"? And conversely, is there no "karma" at

> all in nations

> other than "bhAratham"? All these questions and

> ambivalent feelings

> crop up in our minds when we examine the statement

> closely.

>

> References to "karma-bhUmi" in the 'purAnA-s' are

> very, very rare

> indeed. Apart from the famous reference in the

> 'Srimadh Bhagavatham'

> one can hardly find it repeated in any other

> 'purAnA' (except

> perhaps, one may argue, in the "bhavishya-purANa"

> where a reference

> in far less similar form is made to the lands in the

> River

> Tambraparani basin in T.Nadu). Nowhere else in the

> "purAnA-s" (to the

> best of adiyane's limited knowledge) can one come

> across any

> reference to lands other than 'bhAratham' being

> "bhOga-bhUmi". It is

> my opinion that the word "bhOga-bhumi" first came

> into use only as

> late as in the 1880-s CE when Swami Vivekananda used

> it to describe

> the land of America while he was touring that

> country giving his

> famous series of lectures.

>

> Let's turn to the actual reference to "karma-bhUmi"

> in 'Srimadh

> BhAgavatham':

>

> etadeva hi deva gAyanti:

>

> ahO amIsham kimakAri shObanam

> prasanna esAm sviduta svayam harIh:

> yairjanma labdham nrshu bhAratAjIrE

> mukunda sevaupayikam sprhA hi nah: -

>

> kim dushkarair nah kratubhih tapOvrataih

> dAnAdibhirvA dyujayEna phalgunA;

> na yatrA nArAyaNa pAdapankaja

> smritih pramushtAti sayEndriyOtsavAt --

>

> kalpa yUshAm sthAna jayAt punarbhavAt

> kshanA yushAm bhAratabhUjayO varam;

> kshanEna martyEna krtam manasvinah:

> sannyasya samyAntya bhayam padam harE: -

>

> "srimadh bhAgavatham"

> (V.xix. 20-22):

> ********* ************

>

> The above verses have been translated as follows:

>

> "The gods in Heaven sang of the glory of human birth

> in the

> land called "bhArata" (India):

>

> "Oh, What good deeds have these souls done

> That Hari, the indweller of all things,

> Has seen it fit to reward them

> With birth in the continent of India --

> A birth that enables a life of loving service unto

> Him!

>

> Oh! What would we not do to earn such reward

> ourselves?

> After all, what have we the denizens of these

> heavens achieved

> Through years and years of austere 'tapa' fasting

> and charity?

> The joys of heaven are ours to feast, no doubt,

> But alas, the remembrance of Narayana still escapes

> us...

>

> Far better, we think, it is to live in India

> Even if for but a few moments,

> Than ages in these heavenly provinces --

> FOr there great souls,

> Fearless, free and merry--

> Having renounced all unto the feet of God

> Live forever in Him!

>

> *********************************

>

> If you notice in the verse as well as in the

> translation, nowhere is

> there mention of "bhAratha" as being "karma-bhUmi"

> -- that specific

> word is not used at all. What is said is that the

> "dEvA-s" are

> envious of earthlings who live in the land called

> "bhAratam". Now why

> are they envious? Because human beings in this land

> are able to

> perform undisturbed 'service to Narayana' -- mukunda

> sevaupayikam. In

> other words, the people of India live a happy life

> of

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

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