Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Dear Bhagavatas, DESIGNER TEMPLES It is a recognized as an inalienable dictum that Mumukshus (those desirous of mOksham) should not engage in Anya Devata worship. It is also a recognized and indisputable fact of life that in the USA (with the solitary exception of the Sri Ranganatha Temple at Pomona) a mixed bag of deities have been installed in the various temples. In India also, too much of this mixing up has come up and keeps coming up - a mix up of Sannidhis for Bhagavaan and Anya Devatas. In fact, this trend has come to stay with newer additions in the recent past (including Sannidhis for Ayyappa and other Devatas). In Buffalo, one can see Sannidhis for Buddha and Jaina, both of whom were naastikas who repudiated the Vedas! Once, I have seen even Jesus Christ being displayed in the Hare Krishna temple at Wheeling!. All these may be due to societal compulsions. THE PROBLEM The problem, however, is nothing new. Even among Divya Desams such mixing up is seen. For example, in Thiruchitrkootam (sung by many Azhwars like Periya Azhwar, Kulasekara Azhwar and Thirumangai Azhwar), Sannidhis of Govindaraja and Nataraja are seen side by side from the very beginning. (Let us not delude ourselves by the claim by some overzealous Srivaishnavas that Nataraja came to be superimposed by some Shaivite Sthala Puranam subsequently!) Similarly, in Kanchipuram, the Sannidhi of Nilaa Thingal Thunda Perumal otherwise known as Chandrachooda Perumal (sung by Thirumangai Azhwar) is enshrined within the Sannidhi of Ekambareswarar. THE SOLUTION The solution can be gleaned from what these Azhwars did under similar circumstances. They seem to have been obviously oblivious of this factual mix up. Like Arjuna who saw only the bird perched on the branch of the tree and not either the branch or the tree, these Azhwars had their concentration riveted on Bhagavaan and nothing else. They saw Bhagavaan and sang His praise; they were practically blind and deaf-mute about who stood at the various other Sannidhis and what obtained in their surroundings. AGAMAS: I raised this question during the Agama conference held in Madras University as to which Aagama sanctioned such mixing up of temples. I was told by the Aagama experts there that there was absolutely no sanction in any Aagama for this practice. But, other devatas can be installed as Parivara devatas around the Pradakshina praakaarams and elsewhere. That is why we find images of these deavatas in VishNu temples, like Ganesa at the entrance of Tiruvallikkeni Parthasarathi temple. I do not know if the converse practice is in vogue wherein VishNu is installed as a Parivara devata in the temples dedicated to other devatas and if so under what scriptural basis. WHAT WE CAN DO? The mixed temples have become the "fait accompli" and perhaps, we can do nothing about it. All that we can do as "Paramikantins" is to ignore these other Sannidhis and offer our worship to ONLY Bhagavaan and Bhagavaan ONLY. By "ignore" I do not mean "showing disrespect". - As all beings are the Sareeram of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you keep quite if somebody hurts your body? - As all beings are the children of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you tolerate anyone who abuses your children? - As some of them may be VishNu bhaktas, we should not indulge in Bhaagavata apachaaram which is considered to be more heinous than Bhagavad apachaaram. In fact, there can be no greater VisNubhakta than Lord Siva (when he is dominated by Sattva guNa) A prapanna while offering obeisance to Bhagavaan will not take cognizance of other Devatas any more than of a mannequin in a departmental store, before which no one would stand and pray for "Moksha". Since Bhagavaan can grant all the other wishes also as a bonus (anushangikam), Paramaikantins have NO NEED to pray to other devtas. So, if you are a "Paramaikanti", go straight to the PerumaaL Sannidhi, offer prayers and come away. You need not feel guilty for not visiting devatantara sannidhis. This is the way our Azhwars have shown us and let us follow their example. IT IS IN THE BEHOLDER'S EYE! Ultimately, it is in the beholder's eye that these Vaishamyams seem to loom large or fade into nothingness, as the case may be. This vanishing trick was remarkably pronounced in the case of the Azhwars. And, we have to draw a lesson from this. Let us develop the right attitude and enjoy the worship of our Lord wherever He is enshrined. Dasoham Anbil Ramaswamy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Dear Bhagavatas, Anbil has done a lot of study and painstaking work in this. Thanks. Mixed temple concept is one of convenience in the modern age. Basically it is an offer of a comprehensive menu from which the customer makes his own choice. Agamas are a mirror of the society in which they evolve. Previously there were communal concentrations in living areas, For examle there were exclusive Iyer territories resulting in exclusive Shiva temples there and similarly Iyengar territories giving rise to Vishnu temples. People also tended to migrate to areas containing temples of their favourite gods. Such a thing is not possible in the current socio-economic climate where professional skills / jobs / rewards tend to be the main drivers for where people live. So mixed temples are the only solution and these also help different sects to come together at least physically if not emotionally and spiritually. Dasan, Balaji - "Ram Anbil" <Ramanbil <Srirangasri> Thursday, January 20, 2005 5:44 AM DESIGNER TEMPLES > > > Dear Bhagavatas, > > DESIGNER TEMPLES > It is a recognized as an inalienable dictum that Mumukshus (those desirous of mOksham) should not engage in Anya Devata worship. It is also a recognized and indisputable fact of life that in the USA (with the solitary exception of the Sri Ranganatha Temple at Pomona) a mixed bag of deities have been installed in the various temples. In India also, too much of this mixing up has come up and keeps coming up - a mix up of Sannidhis for Bhagavaan and Anya Devatas. In fact, this trend has come to stay with newer additions in the recent past (including Sannidhis for Ayyappa and other Devatas). In Buffalo, one can see Sannidhis for Buddha and Jaina, both of whom were naastikas who repudiated the Vedas! Once, I have seen even Jesus Christ being displayed in the Hare Krishna temple at Wheeling!. > > All these may be due to societal compulsions. > > THE PROBLEM > The problem, however, is nothing new. Even among Divya Desams such mixing up > is seen. For example, in Thiruchitrkootam (sung by many Azhwars like Periya Azhwar, Kulasekara Azhwar and Thirumangai Azhwar), Sannidhis of Govindaraja and Nataraja are seen side by side from the very beginning. (Let us not delude ourselves by the claim by some overzealous Srivaishnavas that Nataraja came to be superimposed by some Shaivite Sthala Puranam subsequently!) > > Similarly, in Kanchipuram, the Sannidhi of Nilaa Thingal Thunda Perumal otherwise known as Chandrachooda Perumal (sung by Thirumangai Azhwar) is enshrined within the Sannidhi of Ekambareswarar. > > THE SOLUTION > The solution can be gleaned from what these Azhwars did under similar circumstances. They seem to have been obviously oblivious of this factual mix up. > > Like Arjuna who saw only the bird perched on the branch of the tree and not either the branch or the tree, these Azhwars had their concentration riveted on > Bhagavaan and nothing else. They saw Bhagavaan and sang His praise; they > were practically blind and deaf-mute about who stood at the various other Sannidhis and what obtained in their surroundings. > > AGAMAS: > I raised this question during the Agama conference held in Madras University as to which Aagama sanctioned such mixing up of temples. I was told by the Aagama experts there that there was absolutely no sanction in any Aagama for this practice. But, other devatas can be installed as Parivara devatas around the Pradakshina praakaarams and elsewhere. That is why we find images of these deavatas in VishNu temples, like Ganesa at the entrance of Tiruvallikkeni Parthasarathi temple. > > I do not know if the converse practice is in vogue wherein VishNu is installed as a Parivara devata in the temples dedicated to other devatas and if so under what scriptural basis. > > WHAT WE CAN DO? > The mixed temples have become the "fait accompli" and perhaps, we can do nothing about it. All that we can do as "Paramikantins" is to ignore these other Sannidhis and offer our worship to ONLY Bhagavaan and Bhagavaan ONLY. > > By "ignore" I do not mean "showing disrespect". > - As all beings are the Sareeram of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you keep quite if somebody hurts your body? > - As all beings are the children of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you tolerate anyone who abuses your children? > - As some of them may be VishNu bhaktas, we should not indulge in Bhaagavata apachaaram which is considered to be more heinous than Bhagavad apachaaram. > In fact, there can be no greater VisNubhakta than Lord Siva (when he is dominated by Sattva guNa) > > A prapanna while offering obeisance to Bhagavaan will not take cognizance of other Devatas any more than of a mannequin in a departmental store, before which no one would stand and pray for "Moksha". > > Since Bhagavaan can grant all the other wishes also as a bonus (anushangikam), Paramaikantins have NO NEED to pray to other devtas. > > So, if you are a "Paramaikanti", go straight to the PerumaaL Sannidhi, offer prayers and come away. You need not feel guilty for not visiting devatantara sannidhis. This is the way our Azhwars have shown us and let us follow their example. > > IT IS IN THE BEHOLDER'S EYE! > Ultimately, it is in the beholder's eye that these Vaishamyams seem to loom > large or fade into nothingness, as the case may be. This vanishing trick was > remarkably pronounced in the case of the Azhwars. And, we have to draw a > lesson from this. > > Let us develop the right attitude and enjoy the worship of our Lord wherever > He is enshrined. > > Dasoham > Anbil Ramaswamy > > > Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 tiruvenkatam, "Sudarshan K Madabushi" <mksudarshan2002> wrote: Dear friends/members, Here is a wrap-up note on the discussions we have all so far had on the subject. SrimAn Anbil Swamin has summed up the matter really well with the usual dash of delicate diplomacy. But I say that all said and done, in the final analysis, as adherents of the Vedic/Agamic faith, we cannot absolve ourselves of guilt and responsibility for a certain kind of desecration of our age- old temples. When a particular structure or precinct of an ancient temple is removed or re-located, we will all raise a hue and cry, we will call foul and lament from rooftops of how the "sAstra" is being brutally trampled and heritage being mutilated. But when a new "sannidhi" or a subsidiary shrine for some 'parivara' or 'anya-devata', is quietly constructed within the "prAkAra" of an ancient temple (in open defiance of Agamic "sAstra" and under so-called "modern pressure and compulsion"), we will simply look the other way. To ease our guilt, we will offer all sorts of specious rationalizations in support of such construction. And at the end, in the face of the "fait accompli", and in order to preserve public face and peace, (much like Sri Anbil Swamin) we will put forth "liberal-minded" arguments in support of our desecration... But, of course, we will be careful to couch our words in sweet reasonableness, gracious compromise and consummate diplomacy. God save our temples and temple-builders in India and abroad! On the Tiruvenktam list, let us treat this subject as closed and move on to other topics. Regards, dAsan, Sudarshan **************** , "Ram Anbil" <Ramanbil@h...> wrote: Dear Bhagavatas, DESIGNER TEMPLES It is a recognized as an inalienable dictum that Mumukshus (those desirous of mOksham) should not engage in Anya Devata worship. It is also a recognized and indisputable fact of life that in the USA (with the solitary exception of the Sri Ranganatha Temple at Pomona) a mixed bag of deities have been installed in the various temples. In India also, too much of this mixing up has come up and keeps coming up - a mix up of Sannidhis for Bhagavaan and Anya Devatas. In fact, this trend has come to stay with newer additions in the recent past (including Sannidhis for Ayyappa and other Devatas). In Buffalo, one can see Sannidhis for Buddha and Jaina, both of whom were naastikas who repudiated the Vedas! Once, I have seen even Jesus Christ being displayed in the Hare Krishna temple at Wheeling!. All these may be due to societal compulsions. THE PROBLEM The problem, however, is nothing new. Even among Divya Desams such mixing up is seen. For example, in Thiruchitrkootam (sung by many Azhwars like Periya Azhwar, Kulasekara Azhwar and Thirumangai Azhwar), Sannidhis of Govindaraja and Nataraja are seen side by side from the very beginning. (Let us not delude ourselves by the claim by some overzealous Srivaishnavas that Nataraja came to be superimposed by some Shaivite Sthala Puranam subsequently!) Similarly, in Kanchipuram, the Sannidhi of Nilaa Thingal Thunda Perumal otherwise known as Chandrachooda Perumal (sung by Thirumangai Azhwar) is enshrined within the Sannidhi of Ekambareswarar. THE SOLUTION The solution can be gleaned from what these Azhwars did under similar circumstances. They seem to have been obviously oblivious of this factual mix up. Like Arjuna who saw only the bird perched on the branch of the tree and not either the branch or the tree, these Azhwars had their concentration riveted on Bhagavaan and nothing else. They saw Bhagavaan and sang His praise; they were practically blind and deaf-mute about who stood at the various other Sannidhis and what obtained in their surroundings. AGAMAS: I raised this question during the Agama conference held in Madras University as to which Aagama sanctioned such mixing up of temples. I was told by the Aagama experts there that there was absolutely no sanction in any Aagama for this practice. But, other devatas can be installed as Parivara devatas around the Pradakshina praakaarams and elsewhere. That is why we find images of these deavatas in VishNu temples, like Ganesa at the entrance of Tiruvallikkeni Parthasarathi temple. I do not know if the converse practice is in vogue wherein VishNu is installed as a Parivara devata in the temples dedicated to other devatas and if so under what scriptural basis. WHAT WE CAN DO? The mixed temples have become the "fait accompli" and perhaps, we can do nothing about it. All that we can do as "Paramikantins" is to ignore these other Sannidhis and offer our worship to ONLY Bhagavaan and Bhagavaan ONLY. By "ignore" I do not mean "showing disrespect". - As all beings are the Sareeram of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you keep quite if somebody hurts your body? - As all beings are the children of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you tolerate anyone who abuses your children? - As some of them may be VishNu bhaktas, we should not indulge in Bhaagavata apachaaram which is considered to be more heinous than Bhagavad apachaaram. In fact, there can be no greater VisNubhakta than Lord Siva (when he is dominated by Sattva guNa) A prapanna while offering obeisance to Bhagavaan will not take cognizance of other Devatas any more than of a mannequin in a departmental store, before which no one would stand and pray for "Moksha". Since Bhagavaan can grant all the other wishes also as a bonus (anushangikam), Paramaikantins have NO NEED to pray to other devtas. So, if you are a "Paramaikanti", go straight to the PerumaaL Sannidhi, offer prayers and come away. You need not feel guilty for not visiting devatantara sannidhis. This is the way our Azhwars have shown us and let us follow their example. IT IS IN THE BEHOLDER'S EYE! Ultimately, it is in the beholder's eye that these Vaishamyams seem to loom large or fade into nothingness, as the case may be. This vanishing trick was remarkably pronounced in the case of the Azhwars. And, we have to draw a lesson from this. Let us develop the right attitude and enjoy the worship of our Lord wherever He is enshrined. Dasoham Anbil Ramaswamy --- End forwarded message --- --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Dear Bhagavatottamas, You are all aware that when Lord's Brahmotsavam takes place all the 33 crore devathas are invited to participate and a daily ritulal called 'Baliharanam' where in prasadam of the Lord is distributed to all the invitee devathas. Each Devatha has a stipulated place in the prakaram of the temple and also has a small Bali peetham for them (many a times not explicit). Under such a precinct one can extend this to a small sannidhi and a balipeetham for this purpose. In otherwords all the devathas can be regular invitees to Lord's daily utsavam and under the orders of Vishvaksena can be recepient of Lord's prasadam, i.e., bali daily. Sajjana Padapadma parama renuhu Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002 wrote: tiruvenkatam, "Sudarshan K Madabushi" <mksudarshan2002> wrote: Dear friends/members, Here is a wrap-up note on the discussions we have all so far had on the subject. SrimAn Anbil Swamin has summed up the matter really well with the usual dash of delicate diplomacy. But I say that all said and done, in the final analysis, as adherents of the Vedic/Agamic faith, we cannot absolve ourselves of guilt and responsibility for a certain kind of desecration of our age- old temples. When a particular structure or precinct of an ancient temple is removed or re-located, we will all raise a hue and cry, we will call foul and lament from rooftops of how the "sAstra" is being brutally trampled and heritage being mutilated. But when a new "sannidhi" or a subsidiary shrine for some 'parivara' or 'anya-devata', is quietly constructed within the "prAkAra" of an ancient temple (in open defiance of Agamic "sAstra" and under so-called "modern pressure and compulsion"), we will simply look the other way. To ease our guilt, we will offer all sorts of specious rationalizations in support of such construction. And at the end, in the face of the "fait accompli", and in order to preserve public face and peace, (much like Sri Anbil Swamin) we will put forth "liberal-minded" arguments in support of our desecration... But, of course, we will be careful to couch our words in sweet reasonableness, gracious compromise and consummate diplomacy. God save our temples and temple-builders in India and abroad! On the Tiruvenktam list, let us treat this subject as closed and move on to other topics. Regards, dAsan, Sudarshan **************** , "Ram Anbil" <Ramanbil@h...> wrote: Dear Bhagavatas, DESIGNER TEMPLES It is a recognized as an inalienable dictum that Mumukshus (those desirous of mOksham) should not engage in Anya Devata worship. It is also a recognized and indisputable fact of life that in the USA (with the solitary exception of the Sri Ranganatha Temple at Pomona) a mixed bag of deities have been installed in the various temples. In India also, too much of this mixing up has come up and keeps coming up - a mix up of Sannidhis for Bhagavaan and Anya Devatas. In fact, this trend has come to stay with newer additions in the recent past (including Sannidhis for Ayyappa and other Devatas). In Buffalo, one can see Sannidhis for Buddha and Jaina, both of whom were naastikas who repudiated the Vedas! Once, I have seen even Jesus Christ being displayed in the Hare Krishna temple at Wheeling!. All these may be due to societal compulsions. THE PROBLEM The problem, however, is nothing new. Even among Divya Desams such mixing up is seen. For example, in Thiruchitrkootam (sung by many Azhwars like Periya Azhwar, Kulasekara Azhwar and Thirumangai Azhwar), Sannidhis of Govindaraja and Nataraja are seen side by side from the very beginning. (Let us not delude ourselves by the claim by some overzealous Srivaishnavas that Nataraja came to be superimposed by some Shaivite Sthala Puranam subsequently!) Similarly, in Kanchipuram, the Sannidhi of Nilaa Thingal Thunda Perumal otherwise known as Chandrachooda Perumal (sung by Thirumangai Azhwar) is enshrined within the Sannidhi of Ekambareswarar. THE SOLUTION The solution can be gleaned from what these Azhwars did under similar circumstances. They seem to have been obviously oblivious of this factual mix up. Like Arjuna who saw only the bird perched on the branch of the tree and not either the branch or the tree, these Azhwars had their concentration riveted on Bhagavaan and nothing else. They saw Bhagavaan and sang His praise; they were practically blind and deaf-mute about who stood at the various other Sannidhis and what obtained in their surroundings. AGAMAS: I raised this question during the Agama conference held in Madras University as to which Aagama sanctioned such mixing up of temples. I was told by the Aagama experts there that there was absolutely no sanction in any Aagama for this practice. But, other devatas can be installed as Parivara devatas around the Pradakshina praakaarams and elsewhere. That is why we find images of these deavatas in VishNu temples, like Ganesa at the entrance of Tiruvallikkeni Parthasarathi temple. I do not know if the converse practice is in vogue wherein VishNu is installed as a Parivara devata in the temples dedicated to other devatas and if so under what scriptural basis. WHAT WE CAN DO? The mixed temples have become the "fait accompli" and perhaps, we can do nothing about it. All that we can do as "Paramikantins" is to ignore these other Sannidhis and offer our worship to ONLY Bhagavaan and Bhagavaan ONLY. By "ignore" I do not mean "showing disrespect". - As all beings are the Sareeram of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you keep quite if somebody hurts your body? - As all beings are the children of Bhagavaan, as much as we ourselves are, we cannot disrespect any of them. Will you tolerate anyone who abuses your children? - As some of them may be VishNu bhaktas, we should not indulge in Bhaagavata apachaaram which is considered to be more heinous than Bhagavad apachaaram. In fact, there can be no greater VisNubhakta than Lord Siva (when he is dominated by Sattva guNa) A prapanna while offering obeisance to Bhagavaan will not take cognizance of other Devatas any more than of a mannequin in a departmental store, before which no one would stand and pray for "Moksha". Since Bhagavaan can grant all the other wishes also as a bonus (anushangikam), Paramaikantins have NO NEED to pray to other devtas. So, if you are a "Paramaikanti", go straight to the PerumaaL Sannidhi, offer prayers and come away. You need not feel guilty for not visiting devatantara sannidhis. This is the way our Azhwars have shown us and let us follow their example. IT IS IN THE BEHOLDER'S EYE! Ultimately, it is in the beholder's eye that these Vaishamyams seem to loom large or fade into nothingness, as the case may be. This vanishing trick was remarkably pronounced in the case of the Azhwars. And, we have to draw a lesson from this. Let us develop the right attitude and enjoy the worship of our Lord wherever He is enshrined. Dasoham Anbil Ramaswamy --- End forwarded message --- --- End forwarded message --- / Dr. C.S.L.Narasimhan Research Manager (Hydroprocessing) Indian Oil Corporation Ltd Research and Development Centre Sector-13, Faridabad, 121006 work: 0091-129-2285611 ext 582 res: 0091-129-2210262 GSM: 9810885798 Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Dear Bhagavatas: The question has been answered already by saying that we should follow the guidance given to us by Azhwars as explained in my previous mail. Let us have the courage and strength to change what we can change. Let us have the cognition that certain things are beyond us to change. Let us be discreet enough to differentiate between the two. Dale Carnegie once said- "Do you wish to correct someone? It is, no doubt, a good idea. But,why not start it on yourself?" Let us correct our personal attitudes by following the example of Azhwars and leave the rest to Bhagavaan. The discussion on the subject is hereby closed in "Sri Ranga Sri" Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. Anbil Ramaswamy ================================================================== , narsimhan csl <cslnarsimhan> wrote: You are all aware that when Lord's Brahmotsavam takes place all the 33 crore devathas are invited to participate and a daily ritulal called 'Baliharanam' where in prasadam of the Lord is distributed to all the invitee devathas. Each Devatha has a stipulated place in the prakaram of the temple and also has a small Bali peetham for them (many a times not explicit). Under such a precinct one can extend this to a small sannidhi and a balipeetham for this purpose. In otherwords all the devathas can be regular invitees to Lord's daily utsavam and under the orders of Vishvaksena can be recepient of Lord's prasadam, i.e., bali daily. > Lakshmi Narasimha dasan Dear member, Your point is well made, but I think the issue at hand is not whether 33 crore 'devatAs' are on the approved list of guests for the temple "brahmOtsavam". The real debate is about whether the "Agama sAstra" permits indiscriminate proliferation of subsidiary "sannidhi- s" within a Shiva, "perumAl" or Devi temple so as to result in the unfortunate erosion or mutilation of the essentially monotheistic character of the Vedic faith -- that very faith which the temple is actually meant to represent or symbolize. I hope the exact terms of reference of the ongoing discussion is now clear. Thanks and regards, dAsan, Sudarshan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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