Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 DEAR SRI KRISHNA DASAJI PRANAAMS. THIS DAASA WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS: IS BRAHMA SAMHITA AUTHENTIC? IF SO, WHY THE PREVIOUS VAISHNAVA SAINTS(INCLUDING THE MADHVA PARAMPARA FROM WHICH KRISHNA CHAITANYA DESCENDED)DIDN'T MENTION ABOUT IT? IS IT NOT ABSURD TO SAY THAT VISHNU IS AN EXPANSION OF KRISHNA? IF BHAGAVATAM IS ACCEPTED AS THE STANDARD, AS YOU OFTEN QUOTE IT, RAMA IS DESCRIBED AS "KALAYAA KALESA"- THE SOURCE OF ALL OTHER MANIFESTATION OF VISHNU. EVEN LORD NARSIMHA IS DEPICTED AS '"ATYADBUDAM" WHILE FOR KRISHNA, THE MAIN HERO OF THE HOLY TEXT, THE TITLE CONFERRED IS SIMPLY"ADBHUTAM" - iN THAT CASE, RAMA/NARSIMHA IS SUPREME AND ALL OTHER AVATARS OF VISHNU, INCLUDING THAT OF KRISHNA, ORIGINATED FROM THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, SRI RAMA/NARSIMHA. WILL YOU ACCEPT IT? IN FACT, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT CHAITANYA PROPOGATED IT. HE WAS SO IMMERSED IN THE NECTAR OF KRISHNA B HAKTI THAT HE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY TIME TO SEARCH A BOOK TO ESTABLISH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IS NONE BUT KRISHNA AND THAT ALL THE AVATARS OF VISHNU EMANATED FROM THE DIVINE SANKALPA OF LORD KRISHNA. I FEEL IT IS A BIT TOO FAR- SAYING THAT VISHNU ORIGINATED FROM KRISHNA AND HENCE ALL FORMS OF NARAYANA. NO OTHER SCRIPTURE- ALL THE 18 PURANAS OF VEDAVYASA MENTION ABOUT IT. DON'T SAY ; CHAITANYA IS KRISHNA AND SO ACCEPT WHAT HE SAYS. WE DON'T ACCEPT THE TEACHINGS OF BUDDHA ALTHOUGH HE IS THE INCARNATION OF THE LORD. WE HAVE TO REJECT THE LORD'S PREACHINGS IF IT IS AGAINST THE SCRIPTURES-THE VEDAS. KINDLY ENLIGHTEN ME ON THESE QUESTIONS. KINDLY PARDON ME IF I SOUND A BIT HARSH. I AM AN ARDENT DEVOTEE OF KRISHNA, FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION. SO, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST KRISHNA. DAASAN E.S.MUKUNDAN. --- SriKrishna Dasa <srikrishna_dasa wrote: > > Hare Krishna , > > BRAHAMA - SAMHITA > > Brahma is the creator of this material world . As we > all know, for any creation to take place there is > some prior knowledge that is required. Brahma had > been enlightened by Lord Vishnu . Brahma's prayers > (hymns) glorifying the Supreme are available today > in the form of Brahma- Samhita and is a very > important text for the Vaishnavas . > > The origins of the text known as Brahma-samhita are > lost in cosmic antiquity. According to Vedic > tradition, these "Hymns of Brahma" were recited or > sung countless millennia ago by the first created > being in the universe, just prior to the act of > creation. The text surfaced and entered calculable > history early in the sixteenth century when it was > discovered by a pilgrim exploring the manuscript > library of an ancient temple in what is now Kerala > state in South India. The pilgrim who rescued > Brahma-samhita from obscurity was Sri Caitanya > Mahaprabhu. > > The essential core of the Brahma-samhita consists of > a brief description of the enlightenment of Lord > Brahma by Lord Sri Krishna, followed by Brahma's > extraordinarily beautiful prayers elucidating the > content of his revelation : an earthly, beatific > vision of the Lord Sri Krishna, and His eternal, > transcendental abode, Goloka Vrndavana, beyond the > material cosmos. This core of the text stretches > through verse twenty-nine to fifty-six, and a brief, > subsequent exposition by Lord Krishna on the path of > Krishna-bhakti, love of God, brings the text to a > close. > > The Brahma-samhita's account of Brahma's > enlightenment is quite interesting and can be > summarized here. When Lord Vishnu (Garbhodakasayi > Vishnu) desires to recreate the universe, a divine > golden lotus flower grows from His navel, and Brahma > is born from this lotus. As he is not born from > parents, Brahma is known as "Svayambhu" > ("self-existent" or "unoriginated"). Upon his > emergence from the lotus, Brahma begins-- in > preparation for his role as secondary creator--to > contemplate the act of cosmic creation but, seeing > only darkness about, is bewildered in the > performance of his duty. Lord Narayana’s voice > instructs him to meditate upon the kama-bija mantru > (Klim Krishnaya govindaya gopijana-vallabhaya > svaha), promising that this mantra "will assuredly > fulfill your heart's desire." Lord Brahma thus > meditates upon Lord Krishna in His spiritual realm > and hears the divine sound of Krishna`s flute. The > kama-gayatri mantra (Klim kamadevaya vidmahe > puspa-banaya dhimahi tan no nangah > pracodayat), the "mother of the Vedas," is made > manifest from the sound of Krishna's flute, and > Brahma, thus initiated by the supreme primal > preceptor Himself, begins to chant the Gayatri. > Enlightened by meditation upon the sacred Gayatri, > Brahma "became acquainted with the expanse of the > ocean of truth." Inspired by his profound and > sublime realizations, his heart overflowing with > devotion and transcendental insight, Lord Brahma > spontaneously begins to offer a series of > poem-prayers to the source of his enlightenment and > the object of his devotion, Lord Sri Krishna. The > exquisite verses form the heart of the > Brahma-samhita are given below : > > TEXT 1 > > isvarah paramah Krishnah > sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah > anadir adir govindah > sarva-karana-karanam > > WORD FOR WORD > > isvarah--the controller; paramah--supreme; > Krishnah--Lord Krishna; sat--comprising eternal > existence; cit--absolute knowledge; ananda--and > absolute bliss; vigrahah--whose form; > anadih--without beginning; adih--the origin; > govindah--Lord Govinda; sarva-karana-karanam--the > cause of all causes. > > TRANSLATION > > ( Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme > Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. > He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and > He is the prime cause of all causes. ) > > > TEXT 2 > > sahasra-patra-kamalam > gokulakhyam mahat padam > tat-karnikaram tad-dhama > tad-anantamsa-sambhavam > > WORD FOR WORD > > sahasra-patra--possessing a thousand petals; > kamalam--a lotus; gokula-akhyam--known as Gokula; > mahat padam--the super excellent station; tat--of > that (lotus); i--the whorl; tat--of Him (Krishna); > dhama--the abode, tat--that (Gokula); ananta--of His > infinitary aspect, Balarama; amsa-- from a part; > sambhavam--produced. > > TRANSLATION > > (The superexcellent station of Krishna, which is > known as Gokula, has thousands of petals and a > corolla like that of a lotus sprouted from a part of > His infinitary aspect, the whorl of the leaves being > the actual abode of Krishna. ) > > TEXT 3 > > karnikaram mahad yantram > sat-konam vajra-kilakam > sad-anga-sat-padi-sthanam > prakrtya purusena ca > > premananda-mahananda- > rasenavasthitam hi yat > jyoti-rupena manuma > kama-bijena sangatam > > WORD FOR WORD > > karnikaram--the whorl; mahat--great; > yantram--figure; sat-konam--a hexagon; vajra--like a > diamond; kilakam--the central support; > sat-anga-sat-padi--of the eighteen-syllable mantra > with sixfold divisions; sthanam--the place of > manifestation; prakrtya--along with the predominated > aspect of the Absolute: purusena--along with the > predominating aspect of the Absolute; ca--also; > prema-ananda--of the bliss of love of God; > maha-ananda--of the great transcendental > jubilations; rasena--with the rasa (mellow); > avasthitam--situated; hi--certainly; yat--which; > jyotih-rupena--transcendental; manuna--with the > mantra; kama-bijena--with the kama-bija (klim); > sangatam--joined. > > TRANSLATION > > ( The whorl of that transcendental lotus is the > realm wherein dwells Krishna. It is a hexagonal > figure. the abode of the indwelling predominated and > predominating aspect of the Absolute. Like a diamond > the central supporting figure of self-luminous > Krishna stands as the transcendental source of all > potencies. The holy name consisting of eighteen > transcendental letters is manifested in a hexagonal > figure with sixfold divisions. ) > > TEXT 4 > > tat-kinjalkam tad-amsanam > tat-patrani sriyam api > > WORD FOR WORD > > tat--of that (lotus); kinjalkam--the petals; > tat-amsanam--of His (Krishna's) fragmental portions; > tat--of that (lotus); patrani--the leaves; > sriyam--of the gopis (headed by Srimati Radharani); > api--also. > > TRANSLATION > > ( The whorl of that eternal realm Gokula is the > hexagonal abode of Krishna. Its petals are the abode > of gopis who are part and parcel of Krishna to whom > they are most lovingly devoted and are similar in > essence. The petals shine beautifully like so many > walls. The extended leaves of that lotus are the > garden like dhama, i.e. spiritual abode of Sri > Radhika, the most beloved of Krishna. ) > > Sri Krishna Dasa > > > India Matrimony: Find your life partneronline. All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Some of my humble observations are as follows: The Brahma Samhita seems to say that Brahma originated from Sri Krishna. It is not wrong to say this since Brahma can be considered as the Virada Purusha ( tasmAt viraTOjAyatA - Purusha Sukhtam ). I am not sure that the Brahma Samihita says that Narayana originated from Sri Krishna - so the previous observers's objections are partially void. The Brahma Samhita reads like a Agama sAstra. It can certainly be considered a Vaishna Agama text similar to Iswara samhitA and Padma samhitA. This text seems to expand on vedic lines found in the tripAd mahAnArayanOpanishat. The entire purport of Bhagavad Gita is that Sri Krishna can be considered as the pUrna avatAr of the Lord and capable of displaying the Lord as the sum total of everything. Thus the Brahma Samhita can be considered as extolling of the Lord (Krishna) by the virAta purusha. Perhaps this samhitA was lost among many other prominent samhitAs that helped the vaishnavas establish the vishnu tatvam through pAncarAtra and vaigAnasa agAmas. dAsan RTV Varadarajan -- In , elangadu santanam mukundan <mukundan_es> wrote: > > DEAR SRI KRISHNA DASAJI > PRANAAMS. > THIS DAASA WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THE > FOLLOWING QUESTIONS: > IS BRAHMA SAMHITA AUTHENTIC? > IF SO, WHY THE PREVIOUS VAISHNAVA SAINTS(INCLUDING THE > MADHVA PARAMPARA FROM WHICH KRISHNA CHAITANYA > DESCENDED)DIDN'T MENTION ABOUT IT? > IS IT NOT ABSURD TO SAY THAT VISHNU IS AN EXPANSION OF > KRISHNA? IF BHAGAVATAM IS ACCEPTED AS THE STANDARD, > AS YOU OFTEN QUOTE IT, RAMA IS DESCRIBED AS "KALAYAA > KALESA"- THE SOURCE OF ALL OTHER MANIFESTATION OF > VISHNU. EVEN LORD NARSIMHA IS DEPICTED AS > '"ATYADBUDAM" WHILE FOR KRISHNA, THE MAIN HERO OF THE > HOLY TEXT, THE TITLE CONFERRED IS SIMPLY"ADBHUTAM" - > iN THAT CASE, RAMA/NARSIMHA IS SUPREME AND ALL OTHER > AVATARS OF VISHNU, INCLUDING THAT OF KRISHNA, > ORIGINATED FROM THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, > SRI RAMA/NARSIMHA. WILL YOU ACCEPT IT? > IN FACT, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT CHAITANYA PROPOGATED > IT. HE WAS SO IMMERSED IN THE NECTAR OF KRISHNA B > HAKTI THAT HE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY TIME TO SEARCH A > BOOK TO ESTABLISH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD > IS NONE BUT KRISHNA AND THAT ALL THE AVATARS OF VISHNU > EMANATED FROM THE DIVINE SANKALPA OF LORD KRISHNA. > I FEEL IT IS A BIT TOO FAR- SAYING THAT VISHNU > ORIGINATED FROM KRISHNA AND HENCE ALL FORMS OF > NARAYANA. NO OTHER SCRIPTURE- ALL THE 18 PURANAS OF > VEDAVYASA MENTION ABOUT IT. > DON'T SAY ; CHAITANYA IS KRISHNA AND SO ACCEPT WHAT HE > SAYS. WE DON'T ACCEPT THE TEACHINGS OF BUDDHA > ALTHOUGH HE IS THE INCARNATION OF THE LORD. WE HAVE > TO REJECT THE LORD'S PREACHINGS IF IT IS AGAINST THE > SCRIPTURES-THE VEDAS. > KINDLY ENLIGHTEN ME ON THESE QUESTIONS. > KINDLY PARDON ME IF I SOUND A BIT HARSH. > I AM AN ARDENT DEVOTEE OF KRISHNA, FOR YOUR KIND > INFORMATION. SO, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST KRISHNA. > DAASAN > E.S.MUKUNDAN. > --- SriKrishna Dasa <srikrishna_dasa> > wrote: > > > > > Hare Krishna , > > > > BRAHAMA - SAMHITA > > > > Brahma is the creator of this material world . As we > > all know, for any creation to take place there is > > some prior knowledge that is required. Brahma had > > been enlightened by Lord Vishnu . Brahma's prayers > > (hymns) glorifying the Supreme are available today > > in the form of Brahma- Samhita and is a very > > important text for the Vaishnavas . > > > > The origins of the text known as Brahma-samhita are > > lost in cosmic antiquity. According to Vedic > > tradition, these "Hymns of Brahma" were recited or > > sung countless millennia ago by the first created > > being in the universe, just prior to the act of > > creation. The text surfaced and entered calculable > > history early in the sixteenth century when it was > > discovered by a pilgrim exploring the manuscript > > library of an ancient temple in what is now Kerala > > state in South India. The pilgrim who rescued > > Brahma-samhita from obscurity was Sri Caitanya > > Mahaprabhu. > > > > The essential core of the Brahma-samhita consists of > > a brief description of the enlightenment of Lord > > Brahma by Lord Sri Krishna, followed by Brahma's > > extraordinarily beautiful prayers elucidating the > > content of his revelation : an earthly, beatific > > vision of the Lord Sri Krishna, and His eternal, > > transcendental abode, Goloka Vrndavana, beyond the > > material cosmos. This core of the text stretches > > through verse twenty-nine to fifty-six, and a brief, > > subsequent exposition by Lord Krishna on the path of > > Krishna-bhakti, love of God, brings the text to a > > close. > > > > The Brahma-samhita's account of Brahma's > > enlightenment is quite interesting and can be > > summarized here. When Lord Vishnu (Garbhodakasayi > > Vishnu) desires to recreate the universe, a divine > > golden lotus flower grows from His navel, and Brahma > > is born from this lotus. As he is not born from > > parents, Brahma is known as "Svayambhu" > > ("self-existent" or "unoriginated"). Upon his > > emergence from the lotus, Brahma begins-- in > > preparation for his role as secondary creator--to > > contemplate the act of cosmic creation but, seeing > > only darkness about, is bewildered in the > > performance of his duty. Lord Narayana's voice > > instructs him to meditate upon the kama-bija mantru > > (Klim Krishnaya govindaya gopijana-vallabhaya > > svaha), promising that this mantra "will assuredly > > fulfill your heart's desire." Lord Brahma thus > > meditates upon Lord Krishna in His spiritual realm > > and hears the divine sound of Krishna`s flute. The > > kama-gayatri mantra (Klim kamadevaya vidmahe > > puspa-banaya dhimahi tan no nangah > > pracodayat), the "mother of the Vedas," is made > > manifest from the sound of Krishna's flute, and > > Brahma, thus initiated by the supreme primal > > preceptor Himself, begins to chant the Gayatri. > > Enlightened by meditation upon the sacred Gayatri, > > Brahma "became acquainted with the expanse of the > > ocean of truth." Inspired by his profound and > > sublime realizations, his heart overflowing with > > devotion and transcendental insight, Lord Brahma > > spontaneously begins to offer a series of > > poem-prayers to the source of his enlightenment and > > the object of his devotion, Lord Sri Krishna. The > > exquisite verses form the heart of the > > Brahma-samhita are given below : > > > > TEXT 1 > > > > isvarah paramah Krishnah > > sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah > > anadir adir govindah > > sarva-karana-karanam > > > > WORD FOR WORD > > > > isvarah--the controller; paramah--supreme; > > Krishnah--Lord Krishna; sat--comprising eternal > > existence; cit--absolute knowledge; ananda--and > > absolute bliss; vigrahah--whose form; > > anadih--without beginning; adih--the origin; > > govindah--Lord Govinda; sarva-karana-karanam--the > > cause of all causes. > > > > TRANSLATION > > > > ( Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme > > Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. > > He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and > > He is the prime cause of all causes. ) > > > > > > TEXT 2 > > > > sahasra-patra-kamalam > > gokulakhyam mahat padam > > tat-karnikaram tad-dhama > > tad-anantamsa-sambhavam > > > > WORD FOR WORD > > > > sahasra-patra--possessing a thousand petals; > > kamalam--a lotus; gokula-akhyam--known as Gokula; > > mahat padam--the super excellent station; tat--of > > that (lotus); i--the whorl; tat--of Him (Krishna); > > dhama--the abode, tat--that (Gokula); ananta--of His > > infinitary aspect, Balarama; amsa-- from a part; > > sambhavam--produced. > > > > TRANSLATION > > > > (The superexcellent station of Krishna, which is > > known as Gokula, has thousands of petals and a > > corolla like that of a lotus sprouted from a part of > > His infinitary aspect, the whorl of the leaves being > > the actual abode of Krishna. ) > > > > TEXT 3 > > > > karnikaram mahad yantram > > sat-konam vajra-kilakam > > sad-anga-sat-padi-sthanam > > prakrtya purusena ca > > > > premananda-mahananda- > > rasenavasthitam hi yat > > jyoti-rupena manuma > > kama-bijena sangatam > > > > WORD FOR WORD > > > > karnikaram--the whorl; mahat--great; > > yantram--figure; sat-konam--a hexagon; vajra--like a > > diamond; kilakam--the central support; > > sat-anga-sat-padi--of the eighteen-syllable mantra > > with sixfold divisions; sthanam--the place of > > manifestation; prakrtya--along with the predominated > > aspect of the Absolute: purusena--along with the > > predominating aspect of the Absolute; ca--also; > > prema-ananda--of the bliss of love of God; > > maha-ananda--of the great transcendental > > jubilations; rasena--with the rasa (mellow); > > avasthitam--situated; hi--certainly; yat--which; > > jyotih-rupena--transcendental; manuna--with the > > mantra; kama-bijena--with the kama-bija (klim); > > sangatam--joined. > > > > TRANSLATION > > > > ( The whorl of that transcendental lotus is the > > realm wherein dwells Krishna. It is a hexagonal > > figure. the abode of the indwelling predominated and > > predominating aspect of the Absolute. Like a diamond > > the central supporting figure of self-luminous > > Krishna stands as the transcendental source of all > > potencies. The holy name consisting of eighteen > > transcendental letters is manifested in a hexagonal > > figure with sixfold divisions. ) > > > > TEXT 4 > > > > tat-kinjalkam tad-amsanam > > tat-patrani sriyam api > > > > WORD FOR WORD > > > > tat--of that (lotus); kinjalkam--the petals; > > tat-amsanam--of His (Krishna's) fragmental portions; > > tat--of that (lotus); patrani--the leaves; > > sriyam--of the gopis (headed by Srimati Radharani); > > api--also. > > > > TRANSLATION > > > > ( The whorl of that eternal realm Gokula is the > > hexagonal abode of Krishna. Its petals are the abode > > of gopis who are part and parcel of Krishna to whom > > they are most lovingly devoted and are similar in > > essence. The petals shine beautifully like so many > > walls. The extended leaves of that lotus are the > > garden like dhama, i.e. spiritual abode of Sri > > Radhika, the most beloved of Krishna. ) > > > > Sri Krishna Dasa > > > > > > India Matrimony: Find your life > partneronline. > > > > > > > All your favorites on one personal page – Try My > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I am told that Lord Sri Hayagriva is the root of all Avathars and the ten prime Dhasavatharas are images of HIM. Can anybody enlighten me ? Dasan Ilayavilli S Boovarahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Namaskaram Regarding your discussion about the text Brahma Samhita. There are two texts by this name. There is indeed a pancaratra samhita by that name. However the other text by that name is a text only accepted by Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Hence your discussion with a Mr. Krishna das who is obviously a Gaudiya Vaisnava. The Gaudiya text is said to have been found by Sri Chaitanya on his Southern Indian tour of circa 1512 A.D. at the temple of Tiruvattur. It comprises of one chapter only (the fifth) of a proported larger work. The theological doctrine of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas is that Lord Krishna is the avatari or source of all other avatarams. This of course is not accepted by the other Vaisnava sampradayas. However since they are still Vaisnavas they also venerate the other avataras of Lord Visnu. It is not uncommon for some ekanta Vaisnavas to have exclusive reverence for their particular ishta devata or favorite incarnation. As for your assertion that Buddha deva was an incarnation of Lord Visnu, that is accepted by Madhvas and Gaudiyas but not by Sri Vaisnavas. There are three different concepts of the Dasavataram according to the three sampradayas. Gaudiyas follow the concept given in Gita Govinda by saint Jayadeva which teaches that Lord Krishna is the avatari and Buddha deva is an avataram, therefore they exclude Lord Krishna from the 10. Madhvas include Lord Krishna and Buddha deva in the 10 but reject Balarama as they accept him as only jivatma not as Visnu Himself. Sri Vaisnavas include Lord Krshna and Balarama as avatarams of Lord Visnu but reject Buddha deva due to his teaching against the Vedas. It is useless to argue with Gaudiyas about their concept of Lord Krishna being the origin of Lord Narayana. It is part of their sampradayas doctrine and no amount of arguing will change their minds on this. However IMHO it makes no real difference as all Vaisnavas accept Lord Krishna as equally worshipable. adiyen Keshava das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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