RE: Origin of Hebbar iyengars

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri. Balaji,

 

Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and also

it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he was

born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached Vishistadvaita,

Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when

Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it

spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka.

 

The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in the

Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember reading

this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life of

Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the orgin of

Hebbar Srivaishnavas

 

During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a

group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to convert to

Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of Vishistadvaita.

Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly Brahmin

Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar

Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada

Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by the

teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said.

 

Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala

Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar

Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially,

Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar

districts.

 

They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of these

districts. for more info. Please visit www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net

<http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/>

 

Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction towards

kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the Divya

Prabhandams.

 

But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They read the

Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated to

Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in Temples in

Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are

residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu

Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is lower

than the Plateau of Karnataka.

 

I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect

called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka.

 

Om namO nArAyanAya

Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar

Bengalooru

 

 

 

_____

 

k.s.Balaji [kadababalaji]

Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:18 PM

sampiges

Re: Origin of Hebbar iyengars

 

 

 

While i was recently surfing the net, i came across a message to Bhakti

list, in which a very pertinent question of Origin of Hebbar Iyengars, had

been raised by, one Ranganath Sudarshan some where in march 2000.

This aspect had been engaging my mind, for quite some time and no credible

answers have comeforth from anybody. Even the Hebbar Shrivaishnava Sabha At

Bangalore doesn't seem to have made any attempt to find out the roots of

Hebbar iyengars. My introspection tells me that we must have been, most

probably, belonging to Backward class community of that period. The reason

is simple.. When Saint Ramanuja was about to be persecuted in Tamil Nadu,

he escaped the persecution, and came away to a place called Melukote, which

is in Karnataka.I am certain he could not have come with a huge number of

followers, except may be a few hundreds.

Its well known fact that vaishnavism spread in Karnataka, after Ramanujas

coming,as he found that Temple entry was denied to back ward communities.

In order to ensure entry to back ward class people, he could have converted

a very large number of backward class people to vaishnavism, thro his

disciples, who came along with him to Melukote. It is likely, that these

disciples of Ramanuja were asked to spread out to various places of the then

Mysore state, to spread his Philosophy of Vishistaadvaita and also to ensure

temple entry to one and all including backward class, thro conversion to

Vaishnavism, thus bringing them to forward fold... As these disciples of

Ramanuja were mostly male members, it is most likely, they might have got

married to these backward women who were inducted into the Vaishnava fold

and our forefathers could be the off springs of such marriages.

If u think aloud, u can see that while Hebbar iyengars, can speak Tamil

interspersed with kannada words, they cannot read and write tamil. . As they

say the first syllables/words learnt by a kid is always thro its mother

tongue, and the mother while having learnt spoken/broken tamil thro

marriage, to a pure vaishnavite, knows only Kannada from her child hood for

writing and reading, which had been her langauge before marriage.. Hence she

would have found it a lot more easier to teach her off springs this language

than Tamil, which is not her mother tongue.

Really i do not know how many takers are there for my introspection.. and

the Hebbar iyengars may frown at my own findings.. Its better to accept the

realities , if such be the case, than masquerading oneself as pure

Brahmins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin,

 

Thank you sharing us about the origin of the word Hebbar. That was very

informative.

 

You have also mentioned that Sri Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava

when he was born and was born to an advaitin. Could you please refer

some authentic manuscripts regarding this claim? I don't think Sri

Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin.

 

We first need to understand the social structure of Sri Ramanuja's days.

In those days everyone who followed the Vedic (vaidika) religion wore

only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme

reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people might have followed

advaita philosophy as well. But the difference between now and then was

whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi you always wore a urdhva

pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality unlike the

present scenario. Therefore whatever the difference between the (present

day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did not exists in those days.

In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the rituals prescribed in

smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. Therefore even if we say that

Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we need to clearly understand

that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping did not exist in those days.

For example those smarthas did not wear thri-pundram. They might have

used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or something else to wear an

urdhva pundram. Another example is those smarthas did not accept other

deities as supreme reality.

 

Adiyen still remember the words of Sri Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami

during one of his upanyasams in Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas

(those who follow vedic religion) may dispute among themselves whether

Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or Vishistadvaita is the vedic

philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. But these vaidikas will

never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the supreme reality or some

other deity is the ultimate truth. Because Sriman Narayana's supremacy

is what vedic philosophy and that is what all vaidikas including

Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis believe." But of course the

present day situation is different. We should not gauge those days with

present day's standards.

 

Now the question comes, how do we know for sure? We need to read the

great works done by those acharyas. For example, Sri Adhi

Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in particular 2nd chapter

(Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a good place to start about Sri

Shankaracharya's position on various religions practiced in his days.

Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu

Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to read in order to

understand his philosophy.

 

But if we want to know the essence of these writings, there are two

excellent books written by Puththur Sri Sudharshanam Sri

Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2.

Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were written with authenticity.

These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to translate them for

everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers for many misconceived

thoughts.

 

Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan

 

 

>===== Original Message From "Sampige Srinivasa" <sampiges

=====

>Dear Sri. Balaji,

>

>Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and

also

>it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he

was

>born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached

Vishistadvaita,

>Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when

>Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it

>spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka.

>

>The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in

the

>Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember

reading

>this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life

of

>Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the

orgin of

>Hebbar Srivaishnavas

>

>During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a

>group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to

convert to

>Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of

Vishistadvaita.

>Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly

Brahmin

>Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar

>Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada

>Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by

the

>teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said.

>

>Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala

>Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar

>Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially,

>Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar

>districts.

>

>They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of

these

>districts. for more info. Please visit

www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net

><http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/>

>

>Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction

towards

>kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the

Divya

>Prabhandams.

>

>But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They

read the

>Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated

to

>Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in

Temples in

>Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are

>residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu

>Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is

lower

>than the Plateau of Karnataka.

>

>I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect

>called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka.

>

>Om namO nArAyanAya

>Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar

>Bengalooru

>