Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 suvidya [sMTP:suvidya] skrev 23. april 2001 17:25: > to educate the Lashkar-e-Toiba about history. > > Why ? > > Setting an even bloodier agenda. > http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2001-weekly/nos-22-04-2001/dia.htm#1 Wonderful! So we're headed for full religious war again, only 350 years after Europe's 30 years war. Somehow, this reminds me of a quote from Ibsen's Peer Gynt, where Peer tells a story about how the devil puts on a show for an audience but meets with fiasco. Ibsen's comment: So this the Devil got because he was stupid and did not consider the nature of his audience. (it rhymes in Norwegian: "Se det fikk Fanden fordi han var dum / og ikke beregnet sitt publikum"). Who has incessantly been reminding the Muslims that they are idol-breakers? Who has made this a major point of their propaganda? Is it so strange that Muslim extremists now pick up this narrative and makes a virtue of what the Hindus decry as a vice? Is it thinkable that the rather moderate and non-sensational articles and books by people like Eaton and Romila Thapar would have had this effect? Hindutva has delivered an essentialised description of Muslims and painted them i garish colours. Now there are evidently thousands of Muslim extremists who are more than happy to step into the role that has been created for them, not only by their own extremist leaders but also by their critics, who have told them what true Muslims "really" are like. Maybe they would have become iconoclasts anyway, there is undeniably such a trend in Islam. But most of the time, Muslims have not been iconoclasts, as we can see from a large number of churches and temples that have survived under Muslim rule in various places. Focus on an issue, and you get unforeseen results! Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > > Who has incessantly been reminding the Muslims that they are idol-breakers? > Who has made this a major point of their propaganda? Is it so strange that > Muslim extremists now pick up this narrative and makes a virtue of what the > Hindus decry as a vice? Is it thinkable that the rather moderate and > non-sensational articles and books by people like Eaton and Romila Thapar > would have had this effect? VA: Besides a few temples here and there, (Chamba, Khajuraho...), there are not many temples which survived the iconoclasm of Islamic rule in India/Pakistan. Perhaps you need to step beyond the politically motivated writings of Comrade Romila Thapar or a negationism like Richard Eaton to learn some more of Indian history. There is no dearth of English translations of Islamic chronicles themselves. I wonder if fanatic Hindus were around to goad on even Mahmud Ghaznavi, Muhammad Ghori (or even Prophet Muhammad himself). It is true that for most periods Muslim rulers were peaceful but then, it does not take more than a few days to destroy what takes several decades to construct. So obviously, one cannot destroy all the time because all destruction will be complete in a short time. When with all the modern weaponry they had, the Taliban took several days to disfigure the giant Buddha icons at Bamiyan, and were not completely successful in eradicating them (photographs are now available), is it surprising that Aurangzeb attempted to destroy the same icons but gave up? And yet, we see our 'secularist' historians citing this very example to 'prove' that 'even Aurangzeb was secular, unlike the Taliban'. Eaton follows the typical approach of brushing incovenient evidence under the carpet. But then, by now every one knows that you cannot argue any issue logically and have certain set, rigid, unacademic, simplistic views. Which is exactly to be expected from arm chair ivory tower Indologists who have not spent any signficant time in India (have you ever visited India BTW?) and yet wax eloquent on our current political and social scenario after reading a few English newspapers (ignoring all vernacular press) and other secondary and tertiary literature. I suggest you do some field work before pontificating to Indians and dishing out your Eurocentric notions. One does not disagree with the belief that we need to let the ghosts of the past lie buried. But that is one thing, while wholesale distortion of history motivated by political motivations (as seen in the writings of 'secular' Indian historians like D N Jha, R S Sharma, Harbans Mukhia, Romila Thapar - the darling of Eurocentric Indologists) is another. But then, when Romilas who DO NOT know either Sanskrit or Tamil or ANY old Prakrit can masquerade as experts on ancient India and cut and paste from Western Authors to publish 'scholarly' pieces for decades in India, one can only hope that these bad days pass away soon. So we now have a new apologia for the Laskar e Tauba and Taliban - they have been driven to their fanaticism by some fanatic Hindus!! Hurrah secularism! Romila and Pannikar, are you listening? So Lars, do you even know what the name 'Lashkar e Tauba' means?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > > Setting an even bloodier agenda. > > http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2001-weekly/nos-22-04-2001/dia.htm#1 > > Wonderful! So we're headed for full religious war again, only 350 years > after Europe's 30 years war. Lars, I get the feeling that like most Europeans and Americans, you are woefully out of depth when it comes to militant groups like Lashkar-e-Toiba, operating out of Pakistan. It is more than a little patronizing to tell India that the recent rise in a Hindu nationalistic feeling is responsible for the many decades of terrorist activity by Islamic groups based in Pakistan. And it is more than a little patronizing to say that just because Europe went through something three centuries ago, others in the world should do otherwise. You, of all people, should know that human beings rarely learn from history. We are not "heading" for full religious war again. We have been involved in it for the last fifty years or more. Partition into India and Pakistan took place on the basis of the so-called two-nation theory, which was based primarily on a religious war ideology (or the fear of it). There are people in both countries who will not rest till they push the logic of this theory to its dangerous extreme. It might be well and good to tell Indians that they should take the high road, but we would have to be extremely stupid, to turn the other cheek when faced with the ideology of Taliban-like groups. Vidyasankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 I am slightly confused as to what this list is supposed to be while Dominik confers with Indologists. Is it yet another forum for political wrangling, as Vidyasankar's email seems to imply? Or are we going to try to stick to the rules Dominik laid down, and make at least some attempt to confine discussion to issues of academic, rather than political, interest? I realise the dividing line is not always clear, but Vidyasankar's email is clearly way over it. I would therefore like to request Vidyasankar and Lars to put a sock in it, without in any way claiming blameless status for myself. Regards, Rohan. >INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > >> > Setting an even bloodier agenda. >> > >http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2001-weekly/nos-22-04-2001/dia.htm#1 >> >> Wonderful! So we're headed for full religious war again, only 350 >years >> after Europe's 30 years war. > >Lars, I get the feeling that like most Europeans and Americans, >you are woefully out of depth when it comes to militant groups >like Lashkar-e-Toiba, operating out of Pakistan. It is more than >a little patronizing to tell India that the recent rise in a >Hindu nationalistic feeling is responsible for the many decades >of terrorist activity by Islamic groups based in Pakistan. And >it is more than a little patronizing to say that just because >Europe went through something three centuries ago, others in the >world should do otherwise. You, of all people, should know that >human beings rarely learn from history. > >We are not "heading" for full religious war again. We have been >involved in it for the last fifty years or more. Partition into >India and Pakistan took place on the basis of the so-called >two-nation theory, which was based primarily on a religious war >ideology (or the fear of it). There are people in both countries >who will not rest till they push the logic of this theory to its >dangerous extreme. It might be well and good to tell Indians that >they should take the high road, but we would have to be extremely >stupid, to turn the other cheek when faced with the ideology of >Taliban-like groups. > >Vidyasankar > > > > >indology > > > >Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 INDOLOGY, ro11@c... wrote: > > I am slightly confused as to what this list is supposed to be while > Dominik confers with Indologists. > > Is it yet another forum for political wrangling, as Vidyasankar's > email seems to imply? Rohan, there once was a pot, who called up a kettle, and said, "hey, you're black". What do you call your response to Yashwant Malaiya? Very academic and non-political, right? Anyway, I do not intend to participate frequently on any forum in . I just wanted to make it clear that things in India (and Pakistan) are way more complicated than most people realize abroad. Best wishes, Vidyasankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Vidyasankar, Yes, you wanted to put forward your political views. I've done the same here in the past (also goaded by Lars). That doesn't make it appropriate. (I don't happen to agree that my email of today, about the decline of Buddhism ~300BC-~1200AD, was about an inappropriate subject for Indology; but whether you agree with me on that or not is immaterial to the separate question of whether political views on terrorism, Pakistan, etc. are appropriate for Indology. If you think they are, you shouldn't be posting here.) Regards, Rohan. >INDOLOGY, ro11@c... wrote: >> >> I am slightly confused as to what this list is supposed to be while >> Dominik confers with Indologists. >> >> Is it yet another forum for political wrangling, as Vidyasankar's >> email seems to imply? > >Rohan, there once was a pot, who called up a kettle, and said, >"hey, you're black". What do you call your response to Yashwant >Malaiya? Very academic and non-political, right? > >Anyway, I do not intend to participate frequently on any forum >in . I just wanted to make it clear that things in >India (and Pakistan) are way more complicated than most people >realize abroad. > >Best wishes, >Vidyasankar > > > > >indology > > > >Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 > Indology; but whether you agree with me on that or not is immaterial > to the separate question of whether political views on terrorism, > Pakistan, etc. are appropriate for Indology. If you think they are, > you shouldn't be posting here.) Look, the issue is v. simple, as far as I am concerned. I have never introduced political topics into this forum or into its previous avatar at ucl.ac.uk. However, once someone else makes a political statement, I believe in being counted as a citizen of India, and in pointing out things as I see them. When I say that most Europeans and Americans are out of depth when it comes to contemporary Indian politics, I intend no ill feeling towards them. Having lived abroad for a long time, I frankly admit that I myself feel out of depth with many things in India. If politics should be completely avoided here, then self- moderation should include an attitude of blanket self-censorship in regard to contemporary unsavory politics. Once another member brings up a topic, I see responding to it as fair game, within limits. To be perfectly honest with you, in the interests of keeping up the scholarly tone of discussion on this forum, I would give you the same advice that you gave me and Lars. Vidyasankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Dear Vishal Agrawal, Can the same posting be done in a gentle tone? Why must you use Comrade Thaper or other such adjectives? Or providing challenges on other member's knowledge? This list is trying to survive. If we are not calm in our reflections, we must not post. Please think. Regards, BM On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 VAgarwalV wrote: > INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > > > > > Who has incessantly been reminding the Muslims that they are > idol-breakers? > > Who has made this a major point of their propaganda? Is it so > strange that > > Muslim extremists now pick up this narrative and makes a virtue of > what the > > Hindus decry as a vice? Is it thinkable that the rather moderate and > > non-sensational articles and books by people like Eaton and Romila > Thapar > > would have had this effect? > > VA: Besides a few temples here and there, (Chamba, Khajuraho...), > there are not many temples which survived the iconoclasm of Islamic > rule in India/Pakistan. Perhaps you need to step beyond the > politically motivated writings of Comrade Romila Thapar or a > negationism like Richard Eaton to learn some more of Indian history. > There is no dearth of English translations of Islamic chronicles > themselves. I wonder if fanatic Hindus were around to goad on even > Mahmud Ghaznavi, Muhammad Ghori (or even Prophet Muhammad himself). It > is true that for most periods Muslim rulers were peaceful but then, it > does not take more than a few days to destroy what takes several > decades to construct. So obviously, one cannot destroy all the time > because all destruction will be complete in a short time. > When with all the modern weaponry they had, the Taliban took several > days to disfigure the giant Buddha icons at Bamiyan, and were not > completely successful in eradicating them (photographs are now > available), is it surprising that Aurangzeb attempted to destroy the > same icons but gave up? And yet, we see our 'secularist' historians > citing this very example to 'prove' that 'even Aurangzeb was secular, > unlike the Taliban'. > > Eaton follows the typical approach of brushing incovenient evidence > under the carpet. > > But then, by now every one knows that you cannot argue any issue > logically and have certain set, rigid, unacademic, simplistic views. > Which is exactly to be expected from arm chair ivory tower Indologists > who have not spent any signficant time in India (have you ever visited > India BTW?) and yet wax eloquent on our current political and social > scenario after reading a few English newspapers (ignoring all > vernacular press) and other secondary and tertiary literature. I > suggest you do some field work before pontificating to Indians and > dishing out your Eurocentric notions. > > One does not disagree with the belief that we need to let the ghosts > of the past lie buried. But that is one thing, while wholesale > distortion of history motivated by political motivations (as seen in > the writings of 'secular' Indian historians like D N Jha, R S Sharma, > Harbans Mukhia, Romila Thapar - the darling of Eurocentric > Indologists) is another. But then, when Romilas who DO NOT know either > Sanskrit or Tamil or ANY old Prakrit can masquerade as experts on > ancient India and cut and paste from Western Authors to publish > 'scholarly' pieces for decades in India, one can only hope that these > bad days pass away soon. > > So we now have a new apologia for the Laskar e Tauba and Taliban - > they have been driven to their fanaticism by some fanatic Hindus!! > Hurrah secularism! Romila and Pannikar, are you listening? > > So Lars, do you even know what the name 'Lashkar e Tauba' means?? > > > > > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Your advice is certainly well taken. However I do not like the idea that people should pontificate to us from their Ivory Towers always citing examples from their own continent, as if we are still the White Man's Burden. Secondly, it is simply ridiculous to say that LeT is propelled by hate ideologies coming from Hindu organizations. The so called secular mindset in India refuses to call spade a spade.Lars has shown this behavior very consistent and I am not the first one to see a particular behaviorial pattern in him. Anyways, I trust that other list members already know this and so I will not trouble myself further on this account. But to say that the the name of LeT itself is justified by threats of reconversion to Hinduism is not funny. Considering that LeT will not suffer one Hindu to live in Pakistan if it has its way. VA INDOLOGY, Bijoy Misra <bmisra@f...> wrote: > > > > Dear Vishal Agrawal, > Can the same posting be done in a gentle tone? > Why must you use Comrade Thaper or other such > adjectives? Or providing challenges on other > member's knowledge? This list is trying to > survive. If we are not calm in our reflections, > we must not post. Please think. > Regards, > BM > > > On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 VAgarwalV@c... wrote: > > > INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Who has incessantly been reminding the Muslims that they are > > idol-breakers? > > > Who has made this a major point of their propaganda? Is it so > > strange that > > > Muslim extremists now pick up this narrative and makes a virtue of > > what the > > > Hindus decry as a vice? Is it thinkable that the rather moderate and > > > non-sensational articles and books by people like Eaton and Romila > > Thapar > > > would have had this effect? > > > > VA: Besides a few temples here and there, (Chamba, Khajuraho...), > > there are not many temples which survived the iconoclasm of Islamic > > rule in India/Pakistan. Perhaps you need to step beyond the > > politically motivated writings of Comrade Romila Thapar or a > > negationism like Richard Eaton to learn some more of Indian history. > > There is no dearth of English translations of Islamic chronicles > > themselves. I wonder if fanatic Hindus were around to goad on even > > Mahmud Ghaznavi, Muhammad Ghori (or even Prophet Muhammad himself). It > > is true that for most periods Muslim rulers were peaceful but then, it > > does not take more than a few days to destroy what takes several > > decades to construct. So obviously, one cannot destroy all the time > > because all destruction will be complete in a short time. > > When with all the modern weaponry they had, the Taliban took several > > days to disfigure the giant Buddha icons at Bamiyan, and were not > > completely successful in eradicating them (photographs are now > > available), is it surprising that Aurangzeb attempted to destroy the > > same icons but gave up? And yet, we see our 'secularist' historians > > citing this very example to 'prove' that 'even Aurangzeb was secular, > > unlike the Taliban'. > > > > Eaton follows the typical approach of brushing incovenient evidence > > under the carpet. > > > > But then, by now every one knows that you cannot argue any issue > > logically and have certain set, rigid, unacademic, simplistic views. > > Which is exactly to be expected from arm chair ivory tower Indologists > > who have not spent any signficant time in India (have you ever visited > > India BTW?) and yet wax eloquent on our current political and social > > scenario after reading a few English newspapers (ignoring all > > vernacular press) and other secondary and tertiary literature. I > > suggest you do some field work before pontificating to Indians and > > dishing out your Eurocentric notions. > > > > One does not disagree with the belief that we need to let the ghosts > > of the past lie buried. But that is one thing, while wholesale > > distortion of history motivated by political motivations (as seen in > > the writings of 'secular' Indian historians like D N Jha, R S Sharma, > > Harbans Mukhia, Romila Thapar - the darling of Eurocentric > > Indologists) is another. But then, when Romilas who DO NOT know either > > Sanskrit or Tamil or ANY old Prakrit can masquerade as experts on > > ancient India and cut and paste from Western Authors to publish > > 'scholarly' pieces for decades in India, one can only hope that these > > bad days pass away soon. > > > > So we now have a new apologia for the Laskar e Tauba and Taliban - > > they have been driven to their fanaticism by some fanatic Hindus!! > > Hurrah secularism! Romila and Pannikar, are you listening? > > > > So Lars, do you even know what the name 'Lashkar e Tauba' means?? > > > > > > > > > > indology- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 Please don't get annoyed. Nobody must pontificate either. If they do, we say "don't pontificate. pl mind your own business." The trouble erupts when we make labels. We must restrain. Do point out when anyone starts pontificating. Regards, BM On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 VAgarwalV wrote: > Your advice is certainly well taken. However I do not like the idea > that people should pontificate to us from their Ivory Towers always > citing examples from their own continent, as if we are still the > White Man's Burden. Secondly, it is simply ridiculous to say that LeT > is propelled by hate ideologies coming from Hindu organizations. The > so called secular mindset in India refuses to call spade a spade.Lars > has shown this behavior very consistent and I am not the first one to > see a particular behaviorial pattern in him. > > Anyways, I trust that other list members already know this and so I > will not trouble myself further on this account. > > But to say that the the name of LeT itself is justified by threats of > reconversion to Hinduism is not funny. Considering that LeT will not > suffer one Hindu to live in Pakistan if it has its way. > > VA > > INDOLOGY, Bijoy Misra <bmisra@f...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vishal Agrawal, > > Can the same posting be done in a gentle tone? > > Why must you use Comrade Thaper or other such > > adjectives? Or providing challenges on other > > member's knowledge? This list is trying to > > survive. If we are not calm in our reflections, > > we must not post. Please think. > > Regards, > > BM > > > > > > On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 VAgarwalV@c... wrote: > > > > > INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Who has incessantly been reminding the Muslims that they are > > > idol-breakers? > > > > Who has made this a major point of their propaganda? Is it so > > > strange that > > > > Muslim extremists now pick up this narrative and makes a virtue > of > > > what the > > > > Hindus decry as a vice? Is it thinkable that the rather > moderate and > > > > non-sensational articles and books by people like Eaton and > Romila > > > Thapar > > > > would have had this effect? > > > > > > VA: Besides a few temples here and there, (Chamba, Khajuraho...), > > > there are not many temples which survived the iconoclasm of > Islamic > > > rule in India/Pakistan. Perhaps you need to step beyond the > > > politically motivated writings of Comrade Romila Thapar or a > > > negationism like Richard Eaton to learn some more of Indian > history. > > > There is no dearth of English translations of Islamic chronicles > > > themselves. I wonder if fanatic Hindus were around to goad on > even > > > Mahmud Ghaznavi, Muhammad Ghori (or even Prophet Muhammad > himself). It > > > is true that for most periods Muslim rulers were peaceful but > then, it > > > does not take more than a few days to destroy what takes several > > > decades to construct. So obviously, one cannot destroy all the > time > > > because all destruction will be complete in a short time. > > > When with all the modern weaponry they had, the Taliban took > several > > > days to disfigure the giant Buddha icons at Bamiyan, and were not > > > completely successful in eradicating them (photographs are now > > > available), is it surprising that Aurangzeb attempted to destroy > the > > > same icons but gave up? And yet, we see our 'secularist' > historians > > > citing this very example to 'prove' that 'even Aurangzeb was > secular, > > > unlike the Taliban'. > > > > > > Eaton follows the typical approach of brushing incovenient > evidence > > > under the carpet. > > > > > > But then, by now every one knows that you cannot argue any issue > > > logically and have certain set, rigid, unacademic, simplistic > views. > > > Which is exactly to be expected from arm chair ivory tower > Indologists > > > who have not spent any signficant time in India (have you ever > visited > > > India BTW?) and yet wax eloquent on our current political and > social > > > scenario after reading a few English newspapers (ignoring all > > > vernacular press) and other secondary and tertiary literature. I > > > suggest you do some field work before pontificating to Indians > and > > > dishing out your Eurocentric notions. > > > > > > One does not disagree with the belief that we need to let the > ghosts > > > of the past lie buried. But that is one thing, while wholesale > > > distortion of history motivated by political motivations (as seen > in > > > the writings of 'secular' Indian historians like D N Jha, R S > Sharma, > > > Harbans Mukhia, Romila Thapar - the darling of Eurocentric > > > Indologists) is another. But then, when Romilas who DO NOT know > either > > > Sanskrit or Tamil or ANY old Prakrit can masquerade as experts on > > > ancient India and cut and paste from Western Authors to publish > > > 'scholarly' pieces for decades in India, one can only hope that > these > > > bad days pass away soon. > > > > > > So we now have a new apologia for the Laskar e Tauba and Taliban - > > > > they have been driven to their fanaticism by some fanatic > Hindus!! > > > Hurrah secularism! Romila and Pannikar, are you listening? > > > > > > So Lars, do you even know what the name 'Lashkar e Tauba' means?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > indology- > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 LeT may be of recent origin, but the troubles are dated 7th century on, and enhanced by non-comittal attitudes of colonial rulers who had no compulsive responsibility to manage or improve the situation. Post independence rulers in India pushed the issues under the carpet to promote 'apna utsav's to present a beautiful image of India. BJP puts the spot light on the real issues, but that shouldn't reverse the original cause-efect chain. Best Bhadraiah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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