Caste system

April 27, 2001

Prof. Deshpande wrote on 13 April 1996:

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9604&L=indology&P=R4916

<<<

As for B.K. Smith's own analysis, I think it is historically

deficient at least in two ways. It argues for the continuity of

the so-called tripartite classification, while ignoring the

historically most important fact that the word Varna, before it is

applied to Brahmanas, Kzatriyas, VaiSyas and Suudras, appears

to have been applied to a two-fold classification, i.e. Arya-varna

and Dasa-varna in the Rigveda. Secondly, it ignores the entire

discussion of the possibility that a good deal of Jati categories

may go back to pre-Aryan past.

>>>

While varNa classification is Aryan-introduced, the jAti

categories and gotras seem to go back much before.

The old priests doing sort of magic, sorcery and animal

sacrifices were potters, conch shell cutters, singers, dancers,

barbers and washermen in sangam texts and elsewhere. They

were often poor materially in CT.

>From a study of sangam texts, George L. Hart has written a

paper summarizing the importance of the priests doing magic

spells, often at the fringes of the old Tamil society.

Hart discusses the origins of untouchability as well.

He considers them as "Converters" of uncontrolled/inauspicious

forces (of nature) into ordered/auspicious ones made good

for the society.

For a study of caste origins, please see

George L. Hart III

Early Evidence for Caste in South India,

p. 467-492 in

Dimensions of Social Life: Essays in honor of

David G. Mandelbaum,

Edited by Paul Hockings

Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin, New York, Amsterdam, 1987

agathiyar/message/8142

Like retroflexion, customs like satI and caste are

Dravidian substratum elements in Indian culture.

My take is we Dravidian speakers should take credit not just

for good stuff of India, but some bad things present historically

as well.

Please read a depressing news item showing the workings

of Caste in Tamilnadu. One could ask what is the relevance

of this for Indology list. I see many elements of Sangam

poems present in this current news item, and will write

a note reading this indologically.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives1/FORAY.ASP?fdnam=apr1801&CAT=1

Regards,

N. Ganesan

_______________

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May 3, 2001

On the issue of Caste in sangam texts. A discussion in CTamil.

Dear Tiru. Manivannan,

I fully understand that

My ideas do not fit with creation of utopias such as

"caste does not exist in first centuries A.D. in TN" when

many CT poems are written.

For example, UVS equates "izici2an2" = pulaiyan in

puRanAn2URu. Pulaiyan and izipiRappALan2 appear in

identical contexts in CT, and they do indicate

caste in CT. My humble suggestion submitted is: "one doesn't

have to read someone's writings if it does not fit with his

views."

Anyone disliking the fact that UVS and other scholars

writing that presence of caste can be detected,

can avoid reading my mails by using filters.

I'll continue to point out textual evidence

that goes against the newly-created nationalisms.

Dalit scholars repeatedly say that Caste existed in

CT times, and Tamil experts from the so called

Dalit castes point to Tamil nationalistic agendas,

and Tamilatva ideology.

Also, CT texts often portray parattaiyar, and their

liasion with viRali. Are you banning discussion about

parattai, viRali, tAy-kizavi talked about in CT?

Without those characters, CT does not exist.

Regards,

N. Ganesan

Also,

CTamil/message/78

INDOLOGY, "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

>

> Prof. Deshpande wrote on 13 April 1996:

>

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9604&L=indology&P=R4916

>

> <<<

> As for B.K. Smith's own analysis, I think it is historically

> deficient at least in two ways. It argues for the continuity of

> the so-called tripartite classification, while ignoring the

> historically most important fact that the word Varna, before it is

> applied to Brahmanas, Kzatriyas, VaiSyas and Suudras, appears

> to have been applied to a two-fold classification, i.e. Arya-varna

> and Dasa-varna in the Rigveda. Secondly, it ignores the entire

> discussion of the possibility that a good deal of Jati categories

> may go back to pre-Aryan past.

> >>>

>

> While varNa classification is Aryan-introduced, the jAti

> categories and gotras seem to go back much before.

> The old priests doing sort of magic, sorcery and animal

> sacrifices were potters, conch shell cutters, singers, dancers,

> barbers and washermen in sangam texts and elsewhere. They

> were often poor materially in CT.

>

> From a study of sangam texts, George L. Hart has written a

> paper summarizing the importance of the priests doing magic

> spells, often at the fringes of the old Tamil society.

> Hart discusses the origins of untouchability as well.

> He considers them as "Converters" of uncontrolled/inauspicious

> forces (of nature) into ordered/auspicious ones made good

> for the society.

> For a study of caste origins, please see

> George L. Hart III

> Early Evidence for Caste in South India,

> p. 467-492 in

> Dimensions of Social Life: Essays in honor of

> David G. Mandelbaum,

> Edited by Paul Hockings

> Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin, New York, Amsterdam, 1987

>

> agathiyar/message/8142

>

> Like retroflexion, customs like satI and caste are

> Dravidian substratum elements in Indian culture.

> My take is we Dravidian speakers should take credit not just

> for good stuff of India, but some bad things present historically

> as well.

>

> Please read a depressing news item showing the workings

> of Caste in Tamilnadu. One could ask what is the relevance

> of this for Indology list. I see many elements of Sangam

> poems present in this current news item, and will write

> a note reading this indologically.

> http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives1/FORAY.ASP?fdnam=apr1801&CAT=1

>

> Regards,

> N. Ganesan

niranjan · February 16, 2007

It is a fact that more than 70 per cent of the ancient Hindu Rishis, or enlightened masters of India, belonged to the lower castes.

Valmiki and Vyasa , who wrote the epics Ramayana and Mahabharatha respectively, belonged to the lower castes.

In ancient times , one's caste was determined by one's temperament, talents and inclinations. Caste was not a barrier to the lower caste people, who rose to the level of the upper castes through their talents.

This was the reason why Kshatriyas like the Buddha and Vishwamitra , became Brahmins or men of spiritual nature and why a Brahmin like Parashurama became a Kshatriya.

This is also the reason why shudras or low caste people like Valmiki , Vyasa, Vasishtha, Narada, Drona, Karna ,Thiruvalluvar were raised to the position of a Brahmin or Kshatriya , in virtue or their superior learning or valour.

Much more of this information can be found in Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's book "Heritage of the dalits".

Shankaracharya and others , were the great caste-makers. They would sometimes get hordes of Baluchis and at once make them Kshatriyas, and also get hordes of fishermen and make them Brahmins forthwith.

It was with the advent of the foreign invasions in India, that the caste system became rigid, and migration of people to different castes were stopped.

Even then, enlightened masters from the lower castes such as Kabir, Ravi Das, Sri Narayana guru were revered by the upper castes as well.

When India gained independence due to the efforts of Hindus like Gandhi, perfect equality was thrust upon the masses of India , no matter to what caste one belonged to, thus reestablishing and continuing the ancient tradition of India.

Even the constitution of independent India , was created by a Dalit called B.R.Ambedkar.

It will take some time for the deadweight of tradition of the rigid caste system to be removed from India. But as enlightened Hinduism and Buddhism, as preached by Gandhi, Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and others are reaching the masses, slowly these shackles are being dissolved .

niranjan · February 16, 2007

In the manu smriti , when it comes to stance of hereditary caste system, the verse below is believed to sanction support for vocational non-hereditary caste system.

"As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya" (X: 65)

Paramahansa Yogananda also opposed what he called to the un-Vedic caste system as we know it today. He taught that the caste system originated in a higher age, but became degraded through ignorance and self-interest. Yogananda said:

"These were (originally) symbolic designations of the stages of spiritual refinement. They were not intended as social categories. And they were not intended to be hereditary. Things changed as the yugas [cycles of time] descended toward mental darkness. People in the higher castes wanted to make sure their children were accepted as members of their own caste. Thus, ego-identification caused them to freeze the ancient classifications into what is called the ‘caste system.’ Such was not the original intention. In obvious fact, however, the offspring of a brahmin may be a sudra by nature. And a peasant, sometimes, is a real saint.”"

—from Conversations with Yogananda, Crystal Clarity Publishers, 2003.

niranjan · February 16, 2007

Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste system or birth-based caste system. Mantra, numbered 10-13-1 in Rig Veda, addresses the entire humanity as divine children (shrunvantu vishve amrutsya putraha). Innumerable mantras in Vedas emphasise oneness, universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. Vide Mantra numbered 5-60-5 in Rig Veda, the divine poet declares, “All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All are equal.” Mantra numbered 16.15 in Yajur Veda reiterates that all men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. Mantra numbered 10-191-2 in Rig Veda calls upon humanity to be united to have a common speech and a common mind. Mantra numbered 3-30-1 in Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and to love one another as the cow loves her newly-born calf. Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra numbered 3-30-6 in Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly united as the spokes attached to the hub of a chariot wheel.