[Y-Indology] farengi

[Guest guest]

> 'farengi' (an adjective which I must accept for myself

>in India,

 

yes :-) since it comes via Persian from Arabic, where it first

designated ... the Franks (f-r-n-g) and their kingdom (i.e. Charlemagne's

around 800 CE.). Hence all Europeans/W. Christians, or in short: the

western neighbors of the Arabs.

 

The Northern and Eastern ones were called differently (Rum= Byzantium, Rus,

etc., Fars, Hind...)

 

>From Arabic into Persian, still meaning "(non-Islamic) westerners':

Faranja, Firanja "Europe" (not including Greece!)

faranjiya 'a war engine of the Franks' -- hence 'cannon' etc.

 

The word has made it even into Thai (via Malay?) as designating

Europeans/Whites...

 

Such *general* designations of W/N/S/E neigbors are common across languages

and are often retained even if the people(s) originally meant have

vanished: their successors stilll retain the name.

 

e.g. in central Europe: for the eastern neigbors, today's Wend-/Wind-

"Slavs" (from the original, non-Slavic Veneti); or Welsch (cf. Engl.

Welsh) for the western and southern neigbors, orignially the Celts

(Volcae), today more or less = Romance language and peoples, also

antiquated and slightly denigrating: "foreign."

 

 

========================================================

Michael Witzel

Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University

2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

 

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)

home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

 

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs

[Guest guest]

There used to be another derogatory term for Europeans in Tamil which I would

rather not translate:

IrappIyan

 

VVRaman

[Guest guest]

In one of his nationalistic songs the Tamil poet Bharatiyar wrote:

Gone are the days when the white firengi used to be called a sahib.

[veLLaipparagiyai torai enRa kAlamum pocce.]

 

VVRaman

[Guest guest]

Prof Raman makes his contribution with the grace and modesty of a generation

that knew the power of the unstated. For the sake of the curious in this list

who do not have a Tamil friend to reach out to quickly, let me attempt a

circumspect translation not out of coyness but out of respect for sensibility

in public discourse:

Iram - wet in the sense of not completely wiped out

pI - refuse

The reference is to the differing methods of personal cleansing in the Indian

and IrappIyan traditions.

 

M. S. Chandramouli

-

vvrsps (AT) rit (DOT) edu

INDOLOGY

Friday, April 27, 2001 7:35 PM

Re: [Y-Indology] farengi

There used to be another derogatory term for Europeans in Tamil which I

wouldrather not translate:IrappIyanVVRamanTo from this group, send

an email to:indologyYour use of is

subject to the

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Chandramouli:

Thank you for that refined and euphemistic rendering of an awkward

expression which I remember hearing decades ago back home in India.

I could never have imagined that some day it would become a matter for public

discourse in the context of dicussions on Indology through a medium of instant

communication among scholars from all over the world.

Who can say how the world will be a century hence!

At the very least we may hope tha a century from now scholars and thinkers will

work and exchange

in a spirit of exciting camaraderie, universal fellowship, and an occasional

touch of humor, rather than one in

which people make claims in understandable pride and explainable anger, often

forgetting that we are, one and all, groping for understanding and truths and

insights in our different ways, with no conscious intent to slight or hurt

others in the process.

Best regards,

VVRaman

April 28, 2001