[Y-Indology] Flower symbolism and Tantrism-Buddhism

[Guest guest]

Dear ganesan,

Vajrayana Buddhism has greatly been influenced by

Hindu Tantrism propogated by Guru Padmasambhava and

lotus is also another reference to enlightenment and

the tantric chakras in the body are commonly referred

to as lotuses. the idea in Lotus symbolism is to be

pure and blooming even while in the mud and the

dirt...

Hence,Tibet might not have lotus in reality in its

philosphy Buddhism is about awakening inner strenth

and following the eight-fold path towards

enlightenment...

Vajra definitely has a phallic connotation to it, and

when i mentioned reversal it also referred to the male

and female principles. In the Indic tradtion female is

active and source of shakti while she is wisdom and

passive in Buddhism, wherein male is the active

principle of movement...the principle of the stupa if

one reads Tucci or Lokesh chandra and importantly

Brauen's work on the Kalachakra mandala is actually a

kind of shivlinga: I have argued that in a recent

paper...

In the book `culture of flowers' it is discussed how

Islam does not have flower symbolism and has some

floral motifs in its calligraphic styles which are

also lotus like in their petal formations...

 

regards

vibha

 

 

--- naga_ganesan wrote: >

> Many Thanks to Ms. Vibha Arora for giving

> references on flower symbolism. I'm interested in

> more

> of flower, plant and color symbolism ref.s in India

> and elsewhere.

>

> Vibha Arora wrote

> > By the way there is lot of Lotus symbolism in

> Tibetan

> > culture which is incidentally reverses the Indic

> > culture, so I guess knowing one makes the

> > understanding of the other easy...

>

> S. Hodge wrote:

> <<<

> Not quiet sure you mean by this statement --

> "reflects" for

> "reverses" perhaps ? Since lotuses are not exactly

> common in

> Tibet, it is hardly surprising that their symbolism,

> as with

> much else, has much in common with Indian,

> specifically Buddhist,

> antecedents.

> >>>

>

> on 31-oct-2000, S. Hodge:

> <<

> Somewhat later, and thus giving rise to the early

> tantric three-buddha

> family scheme, one finds `Shaakyamuni flanked by

> Vajrapaa.ni paired

> with Avalokite`svara -- one with a vajra and the

> other with a lotus.

> The possible covert sexual symbolism here should be

> obvious

> >>

>

> Reading sangam texts, one finds that red lotus

> stands as a symbol

> for prostitutes, and the hero's exploits with them.

> Hero will be

> a buffalo or elephant etc. Lotus, a symbol of the

> sun, parallels the

> Eye, and Indra VajrapANi is given 1000 eyes in

> classical tamil texts.

>

> "aNagku uTai vaccirattOn2 Ayiram kaN Eykkum" - kali.

> 105:15

>

> Lotus/Eye/yoni on VajrapANi can be contrasted with

> vajra-holding

> tantra goddesses like mAmakI. Note that vajra

> (lightning,

> thunderbolt) are routinely compared with the waist

> of women in CT

> texts. "min2 iTai" or "min2 maruGkul" in 2000 years

> old tamil works.

>

> Given that Lokesh Chandra writes that vajrayAna was

> connected with

> Kanchipuram of the South in Lokesh Chandra,

> oDDiyANa: A new

> interpretation L. Sternbach fel. vol., part I,

> Lucknow, 1979, and

> I have seen a paper by L. Chandra who interprets

> that Borobudur

> is a vajarayAna maNDalam. Possibly, borobudur =

> vihAra + pudUr

> (= new settlement/village in tamil).

>

> Another possible vajrayAna birthplace is

> KaveripaTTaNam, the old town

> where the mouth of the river Kaveri. Merchants

> routinely went out

> from K.paTTaNam towards Southeast Asia (cf.

> CilappatikAram,

> Manimekalai epics). Sudhana, the young merchant

> meets the grammarian

> Megha in DramiDapaTTanam in gaNDavyUhasUtram. The

> dramiDapaTTaNam is

> called Vajrapura in GV.

>

> The name "maNi-mEkhalA", the sea goddess and the

> daughter of the

> gaNikA in buddhist epic, can be interpreted as

> "maNi+padmA".

> Snake hood is represented in S. Indian art (cf. P.

> Rawson or Ajit

> Mookerjee, Kundalini) and caGkam literature as yoni.

> There is a

> consistent myth in sangam texts about snakes

> bearing/giving

> jewels(maNi). I wonder whether the sangam era myth

> of "maNi in

> cobra hood" is related with

> vajra+padma(=maNi+mEkhalA) tantram..

>

> I have suggested that this Dravidian religion is

> told in ancient

> Sanskrit. karkoTaka "gemstone giver".

>

>

//listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9911&L=indology&P=R17156

>

>

//listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9911&L=indology&P=R17553

>

> maNimat:

>

//listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&P=R9658

>

//listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&P=R14278

> (pl. add http: at the beginning of each URL

> address).

>

> Any comments welcome,

> N. Ganesan

>

>

>

>

> indology

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Stephen,

There are chinese influences also in Buddhism...is

chinese civilisation part of the Indic corpus? The

Tibetan calendar follows the Chinese one, not the

Hindu or Indian one...Check out the works by Tucci,

Stein, Waddell, Brauen if you want to know about the

influence of Padmasambhava.

Even books of History of Tibetan culture state this

clearly.

Tibetan buddhism or more clearly Vajrayana Buddhism

has also incorporated Chinese geomancy techniques for

the perception of the built environment. It is similar

to vaastu shastra yet different....however I am just a

beginner at present and donot have replies to all your

answers...maybe somebody else can help you further..

regards

vibha

 

 

--- Stephen Hodge

<s.hodge wrote: > Vibha

Arora wrote:

> > Vajrayana Buddhism has greatly been influenced by

> > Hindu Tantrism propogated by Guru Padmasambhava

> This must be a well-kept secret -- no Tibetans seem

> to be aware of it and

> all the works attributed to Padmasambhava don't seem

> to have any clearly

> demonstrable influences. Do you think Dzogchen is

> Hindu Tantra ? I would

> love to hear the basis for your suggstion.

>

> > In the Indic tradtion female is

> > active and source of shakti while she is wisdom

> and

> > passive in Buddhism, wherein male is the active

> > principle of movement.

>

> So Buddhism is not Indic ??

>

> Best wishes,

> Stephen Hodge

>

>

>

> indology

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Vibha Arora,

 

> There are chinese influences also in Buddhism...is

> chinese civilisation part of the Indic corpus?

In general terms, Chinese Buddhism was more innovative than than Tibetan

Buddhism, the latter priding itself on its close adherence to Indian

Buddhist archetypes.

 

> Tibetan calendar follows the Chinese one, not the

> Hindu or Indian one.

The Tibetans use at least three different calendars, one of which is based

on the Kalachakra Tantra.

 

> Check out the works by Tucci,

> Stein, Waddell, Brauen if you want to know about the

> influence of Padmasambhava.

I'm surprised tha anybody uses Waddell as a reliable authority on Tibetan

Buddhism these days. Even Tucci and to a lesser degree Tucci and Stein are

a bit pass`e. You see, I have been studying/researching Tibetan Buddhism

for more than thirty years and also have personal links with the Nyingmapas

so I am quite familiar with the works attributed Padmasambhava and his

disciples (which I have read in Tibetan) and cannot see any evidence of

Hindu Tantra per se there.

 

> Even books of History of Tibetan culture state this

> clearly.

Do they ? Whose works do you have in mind ?

 

> Tibetan buddhism or more clearly Vajrayana Buddhism

> has also incorporated Chinese geomancy techniques for

> the perception of the built environment.

 

Again, the Tibetans are quite eclectic in these matters. They also used

Indian techniques for building -- in fact, the Chinese geomantic influences

are probably quite late. The same situation is found in Tibetan medecine.

Tibetan attitudes to things Chinese were always quite ambivalent - probably

for political reasons -- whereas things Indian were always priviliged as

more "authentic". It was quite common for Tibetan savants to know some

Sanskrit right down to late medieval times (post 15th century) but I can

only think of one or two who read Chinese.

 

Best wishes,

Stephen Hodge

[Guest guest]

Mr. Learned one, if that is the case why don't you

give some pertinent references. I can get back and

then we can discuss....

 

--- Stephen Hodge

<s.hodge wrote: > Dear

Vibha Arora,

>

> > There are chinese influences also in Buddhism...is

> > chinese civilisation part of the Indic corpus?

> In general terms, Chinese Buddhism was more

> innovative than than Tibetan

> Buddhism, the latter priding itself on its close

> adherence to Indian

> Buddhist archetypes.

>

> > Tibetan calendar follows the Chinese one, not the

> > Hindu or Indian one.

> The Tibetans use at least three different calendars,

> one of which is based

> on the Kalachakra Tantra.

>

> > Check out the works by Tucci,

> > Stein, Waddell, Brauen if you want to know about

> the

> > influence of Padmasambhava.

> I'm surprised tha anybody uses Waddell as a reliable

> authority on Tibetan

> Buddhism these days. Even Tucci and to a lesser

> degree Tucci and Stein are

> a bit pass`e. You see, I have been

> studying/researching Tibetan Buddhism

> for more than thirty years and also have personal

> links with the Nyingmapas

> so I am quite familiar with the works attributed

> Padmasambhava and his

> disciples (which I have read in Tibetan) and cannot

> see any evidence of

> Hindu Tantra per se there.

>

> > Even books of History of Tibetan culture state

> this

> > clearly.

> Do they ? Whose works do you have in mind ?

>

> > Tibetan buddhism or more clearly Vajrayana

> Buddhism

> > has also incorporated Chinese geomancy techniques

> for

> > the perception of the built environment.

>

> Again, the Tibetans are quite eclectic in these

> matters. They also used

> Indian techniques for building -- in fact, the

> Chinese geomantic influences

> are probably quite late. The same situation is

> found in Tibetan medecine.

> Tibetan attitudes to things Chinese were always

> quite ambivalent - probably

> for political reasons -- whereas things Indian were

> always priviliged as

> more "authentic". It was quite common for Tibetan

> savants to know some

> Sanskrit right down to late medieval times (post

> 15th century) but I can

> only think of one or two who read Chinese.

>

> Best wishes,

> Stephen Hodge

>

>

>

>

>

> indology

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Vibha Arora,

 

> Mr. Learned one, if that is the case why don't you

> give some pertinent references. I can get back and

> then we can discuss....

 

Who, me ? I find that I know little and understand less the older I get.

 

But, if it is references you want, then references you shall have. Before

deciding if Guru Rinpoche was teaching "Hindu Tantra", it would be best to

study some primary sources. Sadly most of these are still not translated

from that crazy language Tibetan [You could try learning Tibetan -- it's

not that difficult] But some that have been translated or that are

otherwise pertinent, have a look at:

 

Self Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness, trans. J.R.

Reynolds,Station Hill Press 1989

Sky Dancer, tans. Keith Dowman, RKP 1984 (good background explanatory essay)

Dakini Teachings, trans. Erik Pema Kunsang, Shambhala 1990

Tibetan Book of the Dead -- any version except Evans-Wentz (try mine, it's

got nice pictures)

 

They'll do for a start but I can let you have more if you want.

 

Best wishes,

Stephen Hodge

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Learned one, for your information i am not

even 30 years old, hence what about comparing to your

self-professed experience of 30 years in the

field...but I will definitely say that you are very

encouraging...and ofcourse give me a couple of years

for reaching that level of understanding Tibetan which

I am sadly discontinuing. As an anthropologist my

field of karma is not simply the world of books but

the lived world, for which i shall be leaving next

month and for your kind information I am working on

the Nyingmapa sect and in Sikkim. Maybe we can then

exchange contacts and my field experience...

I will try and get back with some comment before i

leave, but i will add these to my sacred mountain of

books...

best wishes

v

--- Stephen Hodge

<s.hodge wrote: > Dear

Vibha Arora,

>

> > Mr. Learned one, if that is the case why don't you

> > give some pertinent references. I can get back and

> > then we can discuss....

>

> Who, me ? I find that I know little and understand

> less the older I get.

>

> But, if it is references you want, then references

> you shall have. Before

> deciding if Guru Rinpoche was teaching "Hindu

> Tantra", it would be best to

> study some primary sources. Sadly most of these are

> still not translated

> from that crazy language Tibetan [You could try

> learning Tibetan -- it's

> not that difficult] But some that have been

> translated or that are

> otherwise pertinent, have a look at:

>

> Self Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness,

> trans. J.R.

> Reynolds,Station Hill Press 1989

> Sky Dancer, tans. Keith Dowman, RKP 1984 (good

> background explanatory essay)

> Dakini Teachings, trans. Erik Pema Kunsang,

> Shambhala 1990

> Tibetan Book of the Dead -- any version except

> Evans-Wentz (try mine, it's

> got nice pictures)

>

> They'll do for a start but I can let you have more

> if you want.

>

> Best wishes,

> Stephen Hodge

>

>

>

> indology

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

 

 

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