[Y-Indology] Explaining discontinuities in culture

[Guest guest]

Rajiv,

 

You do not seem to appreciate that linguistic change is a specific

and complex phenomenon, not necessarily analogous to dispersions of

other aspects of culture like music or religion. Since most arguments

about ancient Indian origins are based around linguistic analyses

(other evidence being sparse and certainly less suggestive) you would

do better to show a little more awareness of arguments from within the

discipline of linguistics before urging Indologists to go off and

study what you call "traditional knowledge systems". In the absence

of such awareness, your statements and assertions do not rise above

the level of hand-waving.

 

Regards,

Rohan.

 

 

 

 

 

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>Tibetan culture was dramatically changed by Padmasambhava and a very small

>number of knowledge carriers from India to Tibet. In the case of China also,

>a small number of Indian monks going there and a small number of Chinese

>students coming to India were able to bring about a major transformation. In

>neither of these instances was there an invasion or migration - in other

>words, these intellectual transformations were not correlated to a large

>transfer of genetic material from one population to another. Yet, if the

>history were lost, archeologists and linguists might be postulating that

>such discontinuity of culture could only be explained by a flow of human

>beings in large numbers. Ravi Shanker moved Indian music into dozens of

>American academies and concert halls, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi made meditation

>a household word with numerous spin-off movements, etc - none of these

>involved large numbers of humans to do a transfer of knowledge.

>

>(There could even have been a hypothetical scenario in which someone similar

>to Padmasambhava moved a complex knowledge system in one direction while

>population was moving in the other, because the two are independent.)

>

>In the Middle East, the cultural discontinuity brought about by the Prophet

>Mohammed was a major one, but entirely internal - there were no outsiders

>from the region responsible at all. Had there been no surviving history,

>would linguists and archeologists have been able to imagine such profound

>cultural changes taking place entirely as internal revolutions from within

>the society?

>

>In the case of Jesus, the invasion of Romans was into the Middle East, and

>yet the complex new knowledge system of Christianity moved out into the

>Roman Empire.

>

>Given these examples, it amazes me that when there is discontinuity in

>India, scholars jump hastily to look for some external agency. As Inden has

>explained, it is presumed that India lacked agency and was stuck in a frozen

>state except for foreign intrusions to shake it up. So when Dr. Mughal from

>Pakistan explained at the Harvard Roundtable (which by the way, was an

>outstanding affair), that the later Harappan period had a discontinuity from

>earlier periods, he DEMONSTRATED that there was also continuity underneath

>at the same time. He disagreed with theories postulating external

>intervention, and has felt that internal forces of radical transformation

>deserve consideration. Are Harappans to be denied agency of self

>transformation?

>

>Why must it be that other societies can and do transform internally, but

>that in the case of India this is deemed untenable as a hypothesis? This

>mentality runs deep. Is this why many people find it hard to believe when

>told of India's contributions to world civilization, as that would run

>counter to this model they are stuck in? It would raise questions of

>legitimacy of the religious 'saving' mission, and of the secular models of

>westernization being spread.

>

>By the way, I don't believe in any OIT either. The facts seem to fit no

>simplistic model currently on the table by anyone.

>

>Indology must expand to also include the study of Traditional Knowledge

>Systems - their emergence, movement, etc. This makes it a more complex

>field. But these expansions of Indology also challenge the tight control

>mentality over its boundaries, with tall walls and a few fierce chowkidars

>manning the gates. Maybe, the gates should be opened and the walls made

>semi-permeable. It would put the chowkidars out of work, but expand the

>field and create plenty of new and more exciting work.

>

>Rajiv Malhotra

>The Infinity Foundation

>53 White Oak Drive

>Princeton, NJ 08540

>www.infinityfoundation.com

>

>

>

>indology

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

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[Guest guest]

rohan on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 3:50 PM wrote:

 

"Since most arguments about ancient Indian origins are based around

linguistic analyses (other evidence being sparse and certainly less

suggestive) you would do better to show a little more awareness of arguments

from within the discipline of linguistics before urging Indologists to go

off and study what you call "traditional knowledge systems"."

 

RESPONSE:

 

At the three-day Roundtable on Indology at Harvard just a few days back,

linguistics welcomed the opportunity of working with eminent scholars

representing archeology, anthropology, genetics, and comparative history, to

jointly try and piece together the puzzles. They would laugh at a

journalist's suggestion that non linguistic evidence is 'sparse and less

certain'. The above quoted attitude contradicts the very purpose of such a

series of Roundtables.

 

Already, the idea to expand Indology to include TKS' (Traditional Knowledge

Systems) has been well received. The first world conference on India's TKS'

is anticipated in winter 2002, in India. The list of proven TKS' with known

experts, data from various disciplines, and significant value to the field,

already includes the following: METAL TECHNOLOGIES; CIVIL ENGINEERING;

TEXTILES; SHIPPING AND SHIP BUILDING; WATER HARVESTING SYSTEMS; FOREST

MANAGEMENT; FARMING TECHNIQUES; TRADITIONAL MEDICINE; MNEMONIC SYSTEMS.

Various civilizations exchanged their TKS in complex ways that need to be

researched. One new example presented in farming techniques (using largely

non linguistic information) was of rice transfer from present day South

China via SE Asia into India perhaps as far back as 8000 B.P.

 

It is natural that TKS will disturb many a Macaulayite. Their policies

oppressed these traditions, so as to build large irrigation dams and

centrally planned Soviet plants. This caused disasters to the ecosystem and

to the economic livelihoods of millions. They took the British system and

added the Soviet layer to make it into the British-Soviet License Raj. Now

to find out that what they destroyed was the traditional know how of the

very same poor class they claimed to represent, might be too much for them

to deal with.

 

China's communists do not suffer from inferiority complex. Today, China has

numerous TKS' very actively promoted - medicine being the most prominent.

(In fact, there is a large collection of rare Sanskrit manuscripts in a safe

storage in Beijing, that were taken from Tibet in the 1960s. They have in

some instances allowed limited access to foreign scholars. Clearly, they

appreciate that there is something of value in their custody and are not

about to give it up.) So Macaulayism is not about championing the underclass

or even about misguided elitism - it is a plain and simple inferiority

complex. Hence, the disdain for TKS because of the "T" in it.

 

Rajiv Malhotra

The Infinity Foundation

53 White Oak Drive

Princeton, NJ 08540

www.infinityfoundation.com

[Guest guest]

Rajiv Malhotra wrote:

 

> (In fact, there is a large collection of rare Sanskrit manuscripts in a

safe

> storage in Beijing, that were taken from Tibet in the 1960s. They have in

> some instances allowed limited access to foreign scholars. Clearly, they

> appreciate that there is something of value in their custody and are not

> about to give it up.)

 

Aaah ! The elusive hoard of Sanskrit mss (stolen not "taken" from Tibet)

that everybody talks about but never gets to see. Do you personally know of

any foreign scholar who has really got to look at them ? I have asked

around for ages but it's always "a friend of a friend" scenario. There is

a small catalogue of some Skt texts but whether these are a selection from

the fabled Sakya Lhakhang collection that was removed during the Cultural

Revolution is far from certain. Maybe the Chinese appreciate there is

something of value there but as far as I know absolutely no studies or

editions have been produced by the Chinese themselves though they claim the

material is being kept safe for native scholars. One insider tells me that

they are being kept as a source of possible gifts to "deserving" Asian

countries if the need arises.

 

Best wishes,

Stephen Hodge

[Guest guest]

Rajiv Malhotra wrote:

 

>They would laugh at a journalist's suggestion that non linguistic

>evidence is 'sparse and less certain'.

 

No, I didn't say "certain" -- I said "suggestive". The linguistic

evidence from north India points massively, categorically, in one

direction: the membership of the IA languages in the IE family, with

all that implies for the analysis of Indian history. The

archaeological evidence (by contrast) is by no means negligible, but

certainly (as I said) less suggestive of any such single conclusion.

Compare this with the situation in West Asia, which is in many ways

the opposite, with its enormous trove of materials, especially

readable texts.

 

In the category of valuable interdisciplinary work I would place

someone like Steve Farmer, who collaborates with and understands the

published work of top scholars in various fields.

 

Outside it I would place someone like Mr. Malhotra, who seems more

interested in "valorising traditional medicine" for his political ends

(perhaps one day he'll get a chance to re-legitimise it by getting

Ayurveda to cure a burst appendix) and in fuming about Nehruvian

socialism and other aspects of recent Indian politics, than in holding

any factual or analytic discussions about ancient Indian history.

 

Regards,

Rohan.