[Y-Indology] Q: Aban Yasht and Rig Veda

[Guest guest]

Arun Gupta asked:

 

>The Aban Yasht that has the Avestan river goddess Ardvi Sura Anahita

> ... having a thousand cells and channels, each with a hundred windows, a

>thousand

>columns and ten thousand balconies.

 

>Did the Avestans have such palaces while the Rig Vedic Aryans were

>still dwelling in huts ?

 

I quote from EJVS 7-3, §22:

 

"Some advocates of the autochthonous theory (Bh. Singh 1995) want

to find in the references of the RV, with its large 1000-pillared houses,

100/1000-doored houses, etc. a reference to the Indus cities.

 

Apart from the fact that 100-pillared houses have not yet been found in the

Harappan civilization, such Rgvedic expressions are part and parcel of the

traditional poetical hyperbole, where '100' or '1000' just mean 'many',

and, amusingly, such expressions occur only in mythological contexts

(sahasradvaar 7.88.5; sahasrasthuuna 5.62.6 (made of copper/bronze and

gold, 5.62.7), 2.41.5; zatadura 1.51.3, 10.99.3).

 

Who would deny the gods houses that are 100-1000 times bigger and better

than human ones? Or, Indra his 1000 testicles? (6.46.3, 8.19.32).

Occasionally, we even meet with metal forts -- but again only in myth.

 

The same applies to 'boats with a hundred oars', RV 1.116.5. 'Ocean going'

ships refer to the ships that travel through the (night time) sky, such as

that of Bhujyu (RV 1.112.6, 116.3-5, 117.14, 119.4, etc., cf. the Avestan

Pùuruua at Y 5.61, Oettinger 1988). All such items occur in comparisons or

in mythology. "

 

 

As for the neighbors of the Avestan people: The speakers of the EAST

Iranian Avestan were not so close to Mesopotamia, and their WEST Iranian

brethren, the Persian/Medes, enter W. Iran from the North only about

900/700 BCE.

 

The Avestan 'people' may have seen the ruins of the large Helmand towns,

with 'palaces' of Mundigak (with pillar-like brick facade decorations, c.

3500-2700) and of Shahr-i Sokhta (c. 2700-2200) but these were, as far as I

remember, without real 'pillars', as seen in Darius Apadaana palace.

 

Anyhow, these expressions in the Avesta are inherited, traditional

Indo-Iranian poetic hyperbole just as in Rgvedic.

 

 

Cheers, MW>

========================================================

Michael Witzel

Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University

2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

 

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)

home page: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

 

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/

[Guest guest]

Regarding pillared structures in Harappa :

 

While hundred-pillared dwellings did not exist in the

Harappan civilization, certainly large structures, such

as the "granary" existed, and these would have had a

wooden superstructure; presumably the roof of a structure

that was tens of meters on a side would have been supported

by many columns; there would be no other way for the people

of that time to build a roof with that span with no columns.

 

The wooden structure would have left no trace in the

archaeological record, except possibly for the brick foundation

for the columns.

 

The hyperbole need only be in that such a structure is

a dwelling (for a god) rather than a public place.

 

Of course, if the RV people came much later, they would not

have seen the wooden superstructure either. But the Great

Bath in Mohenjodaro had brick colonnades on sides, and

columns have stepped edges that may have held wooden screens

or window frames [Kenoyer]. The columns would have been there

for the Aryans to gape at, and the only question is, with their

penchant for hyperbole, why did they call these "armaka" instead

of abodes of the devas ?

 

It does seem though, that mentions of pillared- and balconied-

palaces cannot help in providing a sequence to the texts.

(BTW, if Harappa was Vedic, then Mundigak was Avestan :-):-))

 

Cheers,

-Arun Gupta

[Guest guest]

Arun Gupta certainly is right, when he says:

 

>While hundred-pillared dwellings did not exist in the

>Harappan civilization,

 

But the rest must be qualified a little:

 

there are

> certainly large structures, such

>as the "granary" .... The wooden structure would have left no trace in the

>archaeological record, except possibly for the brick foundation

>for the columns.

 

What we have at Mohenjo-daro and Harappa are the two "granaries" (a

misnomer, as is well known), of unknown function.

 

The point is that we also do not know the exact structure of the MD

building as only "*some* ... ... square sockets for holding wooden beams or

pillars..." (Kenoyer), which does not make a 100-pillared hall, made up of

27 square and reactangular blocks, with unknown superstructure.

 

I leave that to the Archaeologists.

 

The main points are :

 

 

* Regardless of early (!) pillar-like brick structures in SW Afghanistan

(Mundigak), some post holes in the MD granary, and the 2 solid, but

segmented stone columns at the gate of Dholavira,

 

* they all are much too early for the horse & chariot people of the Rgveda,

possible in South Asia only after c. 2000/1700 BC (see EJVS 7-3: sections

14, and 21, also 12.6.)

Now at: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html

(pdf version, with proper diacritics, to follow in a few days).

 

* Given the rate of decay, the Rgveda people (whose language is slightly

later than the Mitanni version of Indo-Aryan, at c.1400 BCE) would have

seen only arma(ka) 'ruins, debris mounds'.

 

 

 

So, as Arun Gupta says:

 

>Of course, if the RV people came much later, they would not

>have seen the wooden superstructure either.

 

>The columns [of MD and Dholavira] would have been there

>for the Aryans to gape at,

 

if they actually ventured that far south ... Nothing of Sindh in the RV,

basically a Greater Panjab text!

 

>and the only question is, with their

>penchant for hyperbole, why did they call these "armaka" instead

>of abodes of the devas ?

 

Actually, they called one of them, in RV, Vailasthaana, (with various

etymologies)...

 

Therefore I agree:

 

>It does seem though, that mentions of pillared- and balconied-

>palaces cannot help in providing a sequence to the texts.

 

The twain don't meet.

 

 

Cheers, MW

 

 

========================================================

Michael Witzel

Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University

2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

 

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)

home page: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

 

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/